Council - Wednesday 26 November 2025, 2:00pm - Vote_events Tab - Cotswold District Council Webcasting

Council
Wednesday, 26th November 2025 at 2:00pm 

Agenda

Slides

Transcript

Map

Resources

Forums

Speakers

Votes

 
Share this agenda point
  1. Councillor Mark Harris
Share this agenda point
  1. Nickie Mackenzie-Daste, Officer
  2. Councillor Mark Harris
  3. Councillor Mike Evemy
  4. Councillor Mark Harris
Share this agenda point
  1. Councillor Patrick Coleman
  2. Councillor Mark Harris
  3. Councillor Patrick Coleman
  4. Councillor Mark Harris
  5. Councillor Nikki Ind
  6. Councillor Mark Harris
Share this agenda point
  1. Councillor Julia Judd
  2. Councillor Mark Harris
  3. Councillor Julia Judd
  4. Councillor Mark Harris
  5. 03. Minutes of Meeting Held on 24 September 2025 - APPROVE
    Status: In progress
  6. 03. Minutes of Meeting Held on 24 September 2025 - APPROVE
    Status: Ended
Share this agenda point
  1. Councillor David Fowles
  2. Councillor Mark Harris
  3. Councillor Andrew Maclean
  4. Councillor Mark Harris
  5. Councillor Mike Evemy
  6. Councillor Mark Harris
  7. Councillor Tom Stowe
  8. Councillor Mark Harris
Share this agenda point
  1. Councillor Mark Harris
  2. Councillor David Fowles
  3. Councillor Mark Harris
  4. Public Speaker
  5. Public Speaker
  6. Councillor Mark Harris
  7. Councillor Mike Evemy
Share this agenda point
  1. Councillor Mark Harris
  2. Public Speaker
  3. Councillor Mike Evemy
  4. Councillor Mark Harris
  5. Public Speaker
  6. Councillor Mike Evemy
  7. Councillor Mark Harris
  8. Public Speaker
  9. Councillor Mike Evemy
  10. Councillor Mark Harris
  11. Public Speaker
  12. Councillor Mark Harris
  13. Public Speaker
  14. Councillor Mark Harris
  15. Public Speaker
  16. Councillor Andrea Pellegram
  17. Public Speaker
  18. Councillor Mark Harris
  19. Councillor Andrea Pellegram
  20. Councillor Mark Harris
  21. Councillor Mark Harris
  22. Councillor Julia Judd
  23. Councillor Mark Harris
  24. Councillor Mike Evemy
  25. Councillor Mark Harris
  26. Councillor Laura Hall-Wilson
  27. Councillor Mark Harris
  28. Councillor Laura Hall-Wilson
  29. Councillor Paul Hodgkinson
  30. Councillor Mark Harris
  31. Councillor Mark Harris
  32. Councillor Tom Stowe
  33. Councillor Mike Evemy
  34. Councillor Mark Harris
  35. Councillor David Fowles
  36. Councillor Mark Harris
  37. Councillor David Fowles
  38. Councillor Andrea Pellegram
  39. Councillor Mark Harris
  40. Councillor Jeremy Theyer
  41. Councillor Mark Harris
  42. Councillor Len Wilkins
  43. Councillor Mark Harris
  44. Councillor Mark Harris
  45. Councillor Gina Blomefield
  46. Councillor Mark Harris
  47. Councillor Mike Evemy
Share this agenda point
  1. Councillor Mark Harris
  2. Councillor Tony Slater
  3. Councillor Mark Harris
  4. Councillor Mike Evemy
  5. Councillor Mark Harris
  6. Councillor Mike Evemy
  7. Councillor Mark Harris
  8. Councillor Tom Stowe
  9. Councillor Mark Harris
Share this agenda point
  1. 08. APPOINT CEO - Approve Recs 1-3
    Status: In progress
  2. 08. APPOINT CEO - Approve Recs 1-3
    Status: Ended
  3. Councillor Andrea Pellegram
  4. Councillor Mark Harris
Share this agenda point
  1. Public Speaker
  2. Councillor Mark Harris
  3. Councillor Mike Evemy
  4. Councillor Mark Harris
  5. Councillor David Fowles
  6. Councillor Mark Harris
  7. Councillor Mike Evemy
  8. Councillor Mark Harris
  9. Councillor David Fowles
  10. Councillor Mark Harris
  11. Councillor David Fowles
  12. Councillor Mike Evemy
  13. Councillor Mark Harris
  14. Councillor Patrick Coleman
  15. Councillor Mark Harris
  16. Councillor Tom Stowe
  17. Councillor Mark Harris
  18. Councillor Tom Stowe
  19. Councillor Mark Harris
  20. Councillor Angus Jenkinson
  21. Councillor Mark Harris
  22. Councillor Julia Judd
  23. Councillor Mark Harris
  24. Councillor Ray Brassington
  25. Councillor Mark Harris
  26. Councillor Lisa Spivey
  27. Councillor Mark Harris
  28. Councillor Clare Turner
  29. Councillor Mark Harris
  30. Councillor Angus Jenkinson
  31. Councillor Mark Harris
  32. Councillor Claire Bloomer
  33. Councillor Mark Harris
  34. Councillor David Fowles
  35. Councillor Mark Harris
  36. Councillor Dilys Neill
  37. Councillor Mark Harris
  38. Councillor Joe Harris
  39. Councillor Mark Harris
  40. Councillor Laura Hall-Wilson
  41. Councillor Mark Harris
  42. Councillor Laura Hall-Wilson
  43. Councillor David Cunningham
  44. Councillor Mark Harris
  45. Councillor Gina Blomefield
  46. Councillor Mark Harris
  47. Councillor Mike Evemy
  48. Councillor Mark Harris
  49. 09. Mid-Term Review of Members' Allowances - APPROVE Recs 1-10
    Status: In progress
  50. 09. Mid-Term Review of Members' Allowances - APPROVE Recs 1-10
    Status: Ended
Share this agenda point
  1. Councillor Patrick Coleman
  2. Councillor Mark Harris
  3. Councillor Claire Bloomer
  4. Councillor Mark Harris
  5. Councillor Joe Harris
  6. Councillor Mark Harris
  7. Councillor Patrick Coleman
  8. Councillor Mark Harris
  9. 10. Council Tax Support Scheme 2026/2027 - APPROVE Recs 1-2
    Status: In progress
  10. 10. Council Tax Support Scheme 2026/2027 - APPROVE Recs 1-2
    Status: Ended
Share this agenda point
  1. Councillor Mike Evemy
  2. Councillor Mark Harris
  3. Councillor Nick Bridges
  4. Councillor Mark Harris
  5. Councillor Mike Evemy
  6. Councillor Mark Harris
  7. Public Speaker
  8. Councillor Mark Harris
  9. Councillor David Fowles
  10. Councillor Mark Harris
  11. Councillor Mike Evemy
  12. Councillor Mark Harris
  13. 11. Community Governance Review - APPROVE Recommendation 1
    Status: In progress
  14. 11. Community Governance Review - APPROVE Recommendation 1
    Status: Ended
Share this agenda point
  1. Councillor Mike Evemy
  2. Councillor Mark Harris
  3. Councillor David Fowles
  4. Councillor Mark Harris
  5. 12. Programme of Meetings 2026/2027 - APPROVE Recs 1-4
    Status: In progress
  6. Councillor Mark Harris
  7. 12. Programme of Meetings 2026/2027 - APPROVE Recs 1-4
    Status: Ended
  8. Councillor Mike Evemy
Share this agenda point
  1. Councillor Mark Harris
  2. Councillor David Fowles
  3. Councillor Mike Evemy
  4. Councillor Mark Harris
  5. Councillor Angus Jenkinson
  6. Councillor Mark Harris
  7. Councillor Mike Evemy
  8. Councillor Mark Harris
  9. Councillor Gina Blomefield
  10. Councillor Mark Harris
  11. Councillor Mark Harris
  12. Councillor Tom Stowe
  13. Councillor Mark Harris
  14. Councillor David Fowles
  15. Councillor Mark Harris
  16. Councillor Patrick Coleman
  17. Councillor Mark Harris
  18. Councillor Paul Hodgkinson
  19. Councillor Mark Harris
  20. Councillor Dilys Neill
  21. Councillor Mark Harris
  22. Councillor Joe Harris
  23. Councillor Mark Harris
  24. Councillor Angus Jenkinson
  25. Councillor Mark Harris
  26. Councillor Mike McKeown
  27. Councillor Mark Harris
  28. Councillor Mike McKeown
  29. Councillor Gina Blomefield
  30. Councillor Mark Harris
  31. Councillor Clare Turner
  32. Councillor Mark Harris
  33. Councillor Tony Dale
  34. Councillor Mark Harris
  35. Councillor Nikki Ind
  36. Councillor Mark Harris
  37. Councillor David Cunningham
  38. Councillor Mark Harris
  39. Councillor Lisa Spivey
  40. Councillor Mark Harris
  41. Councillor Mike Evemy
  42. Councillor Mark Harris
  43. 13. LGR - Approve Leaders Resolution
    Status: In progress
  44. 13. LGR - Approve Leaders Resolution
    Status: Ended
  45. Councillor Mike Evemy
  46. Councillor Mark Harris
  47. Webcast Finished

Councillor Mark Harris - 0:00:00
And we're live. Okay, welcome to people watching from home. Good afternoon. Welcome
to the meeting of Cotswold District Council's full council on Wednesday the 26th of November
2025. My name is Mark, Councillor Mark Harris. I'm the chair of the council and I'd like
to welcome all members, all public in attendance and those who are watching online. You're
very welcome. I suspect a lot of people are probably watching this in favour of the budget
because it's going to be a lot more exciting. Members of the public present are entitled
to record the meeting themselves provided this isn't disrupted to our
proceedings. For those watching at home the electronic voting results will be
displayed on screen and will be announced at the end of each vote. Should
anything go wrong with the electronic voting which cannot be resolved we'll

1 Apologies

revert to voting by a clear show of hands. First item on the agenda is
apologies. Apologies for absence received in advance.
Nickie Mackenzie-Daste, Officer - 0:00:58
So we've got apologies today from Councillor Juliet Layton, Councillor Nigel
Councillor Mark Harris - 0:01:06
Robbins and Councillor Tristan Wilkinson. Thank you very much. Do we have to vote on
that too? Oh sorry Councillor Efremi you have something to add? I think
Councillor Mike Evemy - 0:01:13
Councillor Elaine Mansour is delayed getting here Chair. Thank you Councillor
Councillor Mark Harris - 0:01:18
Efremi. Okay do we need to vote on that? We don't need to vote on that do we? No.
Declarations of interest.

2 Declarations of Interest

Okay, there's a little bit to mention here
because a couple of the items that we have.
In respect of item nine, members are reminded
that the council agreed at its meeting
on 18th of January, 2023 to approve under section 33
of the Localism Act 2011, a number of general dispensations.
This included a dispensation as regards
to determining allowances paid to members.
This dispensation enables all members
to participate in the discussion and vote on matters relating to members' allowances
despite the direct financial interest.
In relation to Agenda Item 13 on Local Government Reorganisation, members who have previously
declared their membership of another local authority, i .e. the County Council, in their
Register of Interest are not required to repeat this declaration at the full Council meeting.
And our Interim Chief Executive is the subject of Agenda Item 8 and I understand will leave
room for the duration of that item. Are there any other declarations of
interest from members or officers please? And if not and it becomes apparent
please. Oh yes, Council if you could stand up. It's more of a procedural item really. I
missed the comment just before the the chief exec. Would people who are impacted
by the vote on increasing allowances need to register a peculiar interest? No
that's a general dispensation Councillor Slater. Thanks for clarity.
Councillor Patrick Coleman - 0:02:59
Councillor Coleman. Yes thank you chair. With regard to that same item those of
us who are also members of Syrinsester Town Council which I think is yes
referred to at the end of that perhaps need to declare an interest as well.
Councillor Mark Harris - 0:03:15
Councillor Patrick Coleman - 0:03:16
Councillor Mark Harris - 0:03:17
Yes when we come to that item I'll ask for members of the town council to
sorry, the town council to make themselves known which I'm one.
Oop, Councillor Nicky in. Thank you chair just to say that agenda item 11 I just
Councillor Nikki Ind - 0:03:32
want to make clear that I am a member of Tepe -Chang council and I have been
involved in the voting regarding the proposal suggested but I've taken advice
from the monitoring officer Mrs. Claridge and she said that's no reason
Councillor Mark Harris - 0:03:46
for me not to partake or vote in that so I just wanted to clear that up. Thanks
thanks for that Councillor Hinn. Okay right let's move on to the minutes now

3 Minutes

we're going to confirm the minutes of the meeting of Council held on the 24th
of September 2025. Can I have a proposer to accept the minutes of the 24th please?
Councillor Everly, thank you very much and a seconder. Yeah oh no you've got a
Councillor Julia Judd - 0:04:18
question have you Councillor Judd? I do chair. It's just in the response to the
The minutes of the public questions, number one from Valerie Dyson.
The minutes do not reflect the question nor the emphasis of the question.
Sorry, if I can just get my phone.
I just wondered if officers please could amend the minutes to reflect the question, which
is a short question.
So I'm not asking for the world.
She says, my question is given that bin collection is a statutory duty and of the utmost importance
to residents, why is the council unwilling to make the investment in vehicles that are
needed rather than giving priority to other spending such as PR at 400 ,000 pounds and
refurbishment of council offices?
And I think that that was the question she asked.
It wasn't necessarily just the question she got.
Councillor Mark Harris - 0:05:49
What we will do, and I suggest that we go back over the recording of the meeting and
we get a more verbatim representation of the question that was asked. If that is all right
with you, Councillor Judd?
Councillor Julia Judd - 0:06:04
Representation of what actually happened in a meeting. But I think that when the question
has an emphasis which isn't covered by the minutes I think it's fair enough to
actually especially when the question is short actually record the question is
Councillor Mark Harris - 0:06:24
question in its entirety thank you thank you council yeah okay should we go back
to the so can we have we've got a proposer for the minutes as amended do
we have a seconder for the council stove thank you very much okay and if we can
go to the vote please the council will accept the minutes of the meeting on the
24th September as a correct record subject to the amendment yeah okay
Those are tumbling in. Thank you very much Councillor Hodgkinson.
Councillor Fowles stand up.
Microphone, microphone, microphone. I had to leave the meeting so I should have
abstain I do apologise okay so we've got 34 sorry yeah 34 sorry 27 for none
against and three extensions okay that's great thank you very much so

4 Announcements from the Chair, Leader or Chief Executive

announcements from the chair leader and chief executive I'd like to remind
members of the need to be disciplined with their comments during the debate and be
succinct with any questions raised. The length of this meeting is capped at
four hours and after three hours have elapsed if we get to that point we will
take a vote on whether to continue for the final hour. After four hours we'll
finish that item we're dealing with in the normal way but any other business
will fall. We'll also have a comfort break after approximately two hours. The break will
not count towards the time limit. We do have a cabinet meeting in here following the meeting
of full council and that meeting will start shortly after the conclusion of this meeting.
I've got a couple of announcements. The first is that as chair of the district council,
I attended a number of remembrance events, namely the remembrance event in Syrinsester
and along with the Chief Executive and the, delivered a wreath to the poppy train that
was going up to Paddington.
And I thank other colleagues and members who have also represented the Council at various
events throughout the district.
We can't do this without the support of our partners and our loved ones.
And it's with that in mind that we send condolences to Maggie Heaven,
who was a Councillor in Tethbury on this council, whose husband Frank passed away on the 19th of October.
I met Frank a couple of times and he was quite the Francophile, I should say,
because both Maggie and Frank enjoyed spending a lot of time in France
and they are absolutely devastated after the Brexit vote, it has to be said.
But I think, Councillor Fowle, you have some details of when Frank's funeral might be.
Thank you, Chairman. Maggie firstly wanted to thank everybody who's expressed their sympathy,
particularly her colleagues in Tepary and Laura, who is our board member down there.
Just so you know, Frank had to go into her home and she was so unhappy,
typical Maggie that she removed him from the nursing home,
Councillor David Fowles - 0:10:07
brought him home, which is where he wanted to be,
and sadly he died three days later after 43 years of marriage.
She'd be delighted if members who knew her or indeed knew Frank
would like to come to the funeral, which is on the 16th of December
at 2 .15 at Long Newton Church and then afterwards at the Snooty Fox.
So that's the 16th of December, 2 .15, Long Ute, and I'll make sure that hopefully I'll
send a note round. But she'd be delighted if you could come in particular, Chairman.
Councillor Mark Harris - 0:10:39
Okay, thank you. Thank you, Councillor Fowles. I'm just going to take this opportunity at
this point to invite Councillor Andrew McLean to make a statement about his health.
for Councillor McKelvie.
Thank you, Chair.
Councillor Andrew Maclean - 0:10:53
Well, I've got a sad announcement to make,
and it's with great sadness I have to announce
I'm standing down as a district councillor.
Some of you will know that I had a seizure in January
when visiting my family in Senegal.
The follow -up to this after a series of scans and a biopsies
actually resulted in a diagnosis of a serious brain tumour.
So far I've showed no symptoms at all,
but the prognosis is pretty poor.
So what I have to say, it's been a joy to represent the Rissingtons here
for the last six years.
Each of the four villages with its own special character,
and I'm just going to tell you about them because you must know,
you should have seen Upper Rissington on Halloween night
or even at the firework display.
It's quite unlike any place that you all represent.
It's just got so many young families and children,
making even me feel my age.
Great Risington has an amazing club, do go there sometime, and the famous coffee cake
and chat at the church on Tuesday mornings has such a strong community feel.
And then there's Little Risington where I have my allotment, and it's led the way in
the Cotswolds on pristine parishes, and it has one of the most special Little Churches
in the North Cotswolds.
And then finally, Wick Risington, with its green, it's completely undiscovered by tourists,
much to the delight of its residents.
And they were rather shocked at first, these well -heeled residents,
to find they were represented by a Green Councillor.
But honestly, they've been so welcoming and kind to me over the years.
And it's been a privilege to work with all of you too,
even when we might not have seen eye to eye on a few issues.
I think you all know where I stand on caring passionately about sustainability,
green issues, equity and our wonderful countryside where we all live.
But thank you for listening to me on these issues.
And forgive me for just how many times I repeated myself, especially about energy efficiency
at planning meetings.
I don't know if we have any other planners here, but do forgive me.
With the coming of unitary status, it's such a thoroughly awkward time to be stepping down,
but I'm sorry, I have no control over that.
I'm sure you'll understand with my remaining time.
Sorry, I get weepy here.
I just want to concentrate my family on getting out of my bike in the North Cotswolds
and as a man of faith, preparing for my long -term future with my Saviour.
Thank you all for your time and thank you for listening.
Councillor Mark Harris - 0:13:30
Thank you very much.
Thank you, Councillor McLean.
We really appreciate you sharing that with us.
and thank you for your wisdom, your passion, and your humour in this council.
We'd greatly appreciate it.
And please, please remember, over the next few months,
you have our support in any way that you feel might be helpful.
And we wish you all the courage and comfort going forward over the next few months.
Thank you.
Thank you so much, Father.
Thank you.
Thank you all.
Thanks very much.
Right, well I'm going to go to the leader for the leaders announcement. Thank you
Councillor Mike Evemy - 0:14:47
chair and I know obviously councillor Maclean has left the room now but I'm
sure he'll be able to watch this back if he wants to. So I just like to pay
tribute to the work that he has done in this chamber over the last six and a
years that I've served together with him. He referred the fact he was the first
Green Councillor elected to this council and obviously that's a huge achievement
for him and his party and I think all of those speaking on behalf of all of
my colleagues on this side of the chamber we've always found Andrew very
approachable. We've always enjoyed chatting with him. We've worked
collaboratively on issues I know Rachel Cox did when she had the portfolio
for climate change in the last council and and similar Mike has in this
council and we will all miss him he has been a great member of this authority
and we're very very sad to see him go but we understand given given what he's
told us this afternoon how he wants to spend his the time that he has left and
understand he doesn't necessarily want to spend it in this chamber which I
totally get. So just picking up on the announcements that I had to make and
what you said, Chair, about the remembrance events. This was obviously
my first remembrance as leader of the Council. I had the opportunity to go to
Fairford and join the Mayor there, Richard Harrison, parading through the
centre of Fairford on Remembrance Sunday and Councillor van was there as well
with us.
And also wanted to thank all of you who came to the
event that we held here.
Mark, you were there as our chair on the day itself when
we also had 29th Regiment and the Royal British Legion
here with us.
And, you know, we will continue to remember those
people who lost their lives in war.
And we also remembered at that event those people who
didn't lose their lives, but they gave an awful lot for
us so that we have our freedom. The only other thing that I wanted to talk a
little bit about today, because I'm conscious we have a long agenda, is just to give
you an update on where we are with regards to the local plan. We're now a
little over seven weeks, we're a little over a week into the seven week
consultation and you know that as you know is in response to the housing
target, the huge target that we've been set by the government. We've had just
over a hundred comments already submitted through the platform and we
know that through looking at social media and our website that there have
been many hundreds of visits to that consultation platform. We've hosted two
forums for Town and Parish Councils which were attended by over a hundred
and fifty council councillors and clerks and in response to that our
communications and planning teams have responded to over 70 questions and we
circulated the response to those questions to you as district councillors
and also to our clerks to share with their councils. Councillor Layton together
with Helen Martin our Director of Communities and Place and our other
officers have also been attending public meetings and myself that have been
organised by ward councillors and Town of Harish councils. We had one in Anthony
Cruces chaired ably by Councillor Spivey covering apne cruces and drift fields
I was at Kemble on Monday night with Councillor McEwen was also impressed in
in my own wards back at the start of the month and Juliet went to Willersie a
couple of weeks and I think those have been very very well attended meetings
and have I hope been very valuable for the residents that have attended those
meetings. We've also had stakeholder group meetings in Moreton and Marsh and
we had a separate meeting with Anthony Cruces and Driffield parish councils
jointly. So there are more meetings coming up. We're in Tetbury, we'll be in
Siddington this weekend and then we'll be in Moreton and Marsh I think on the
10th of December. This Friday is the first of our exhibitions taking place in
Mickleton and then they'll be every week thereafter in Moreton, Fairford and
There's been dozens of posts on social media about the consultation and it's reached sort
of 20 ,000 residents and we're really getting very high engagement, five times what we normally
get for our posts.
And we've also emailed out to the council's 8 ,000 strong subscriber list on emails.
Some of you may have seen it already landing on your door mats.
It's called Potswolds Together.
My copy's in the other room, but that's going to every household in the district this week.
Mine came on Saturday, and they have a double page spread all about the local plan consultation
encouraging people to get involved.
We do know there were a few technical problems initially when we set up the consultation,
particularly for people trying to respond on mobile, but we have made some changes to
make that easier.
There are hard copies available in the library and in here and in the area centre in Moreton
for people who can't use the internet or don't have access.
So obviously we're hoping people will,
there'll be a momentum and more and more people respond.
So we're really urging residents,
and I would say to you as members,
please urge all your residents to take part
in the consultation and have your say.
And we did send on the 14th of November,
a suite of materials to the town parks
and parish parks across the district.
And you've also got that to help people
in having those discussions across the district.
Just wanted a little bit more about what we're doing
about the housing targets.
So since we met last, I wrote a letter jointly signed
by Councillor Stowe, Councillor Turner and Councillor Ind.
So representing all 34 of us to the new Secretary of State,
Steve Reed, asked him for a meeting.
and we just got a reply back at the end of last week and from the same minister
in his department who responded to the letter we sent to Angela Rayner and
essentially she is saying to us you need to do what you are doing you need to
follow the local plan process and that's the process that we can use as evidence
to challenge the standard method the government has have given us but they
have said they're not going to meet us personally,
but they've offered the opportunity
that we could meet with civil servants.
So we will be taking that up.
And I'm personally still very concerned about our ability
to prevent unsuitable piecemeal development
while the local plan update is going on
and really want to reassure members and residents,
yeah, that our offices and therefore those of you
sit on the committee are not afraid
to refuse unsuitable development and we are rigorously assessing every
application as it comes forward. Just to sort of I think probably bring my
remarks to a close, yeah we are out there consulting as you know on the preferred
option. Even our preferred option which is 4 ,000 short of what the government
said could deliver about 813 homes per year. That's 200 less than the
government are saying that we need to. So in my view that isn't a realistic number
but we have to go through this process. I'm sure members are aware but speaking to
people who are watching this online we have to go through a process to prove
that we can't deliver the numbers and yeah I'm very concerned and as I have
said in public meetings I understand why residents in the most affected
communities are concerned and anxious about what we're doing but I want to
reassure them that we are continuing to lobby the government and we're now
reflect now we've got this letter back on how we take that forward. We are
working with both of the MPs Dr. Ros Savage and Sir Geoffrey Clifton Brown.
They've also written a joint letter to the Secretary of State and we're going
to continue working with them to see how we can continue to make the point that
the numbers that we've been given are far too high. We're also working looking
through how we can work together with other councils in a similar position and
get a group of those and we're also looking at East Hampshire District
Council who have been looking at whether they can legally challenge the
government but at the moment we're not aware that any council has successfully
challenged the standard method for calculating the housing requirements so
we are obviously continuing to look at things but we're not aware that you know
that we're in a position to be able to do that so I'll just finish off by saying
yeah, I'm aware it's it's a big issue for all of us as members. We're all ward
members working with our communities explaining the situation we're in and I
thank all of you who are doing that. I look forward to getting out and about to
more places in the next few weeks. I think Councillor Layton, who unfortunately
couldn't be with us today, but thank you for everything that you as members are
doing in your communities to explain the situation and to encourage your
communities to engage in the consultation. Thank you.
Councillor Mark Harris - 0:24:19
Thank you, Councillor Ebenle. I understand the Chief Executive doesn't have any comments,
but Councillor Stowe, I know you wanted to say something briefly.
Councillor Tom Stowe - 0:24:28
Yes, thank you, Chair. It's just a reflection really on the news that we've just heard from
Councillor McLean. I just want to applaud him for his extraordinary courage in delivering
this devastating news. On behalf of the Conservative group, we've always very much valued his insights,
his knowledge and he commands great respect amongst the group and as he just
demonstrated is a real gentleman he's going to be sorely missed in this
chamber and the conservative group send the best wishes to him and strength to
Councillor Mark Harris - 0:25:01
his family for this battle that he's faces ahead thank you. Thank You Councillor Stowe.
Right we're going to move on to the Unsung Heroes Awards where we

5 Unsung Heroes Awards

celebrate the incredible individuals who make our community stronger, kinder
and more connected.
Today we have winners from both our unsung heroes and also our
young unsung heroes, all people who give their time and energy
without seeking recognition but whose impact is truly inspiring.
So we're going to start with our young unsung heroes,
recognising outstanding contributions of young people
in our community.
And what I'll do is I'll read out the nominations and then if
you can all come up and receive a certificate, easy for me to
say, and we'll get a photo and I'll give you a little badge as well. So let's start off with, first of all, Liam Radford. Now Liam is an exemplary member of the community and a dedicated police cadet volunteer. Last year alone he completed over 105 hours of volunteering and this year he's already contributed more than 68 hours. At events like the Chesterton Summer
Family Day, Liam took charge of the Children's Sports Day, making it fun and
memorable for everyone. His commitment and enthusiasm set a shining example for
others. Let's give him a round of applause.
Good work Liam, good work. Now next we have three under one heading, Heidi Otis and
Heath Forbes. These three siblings show incredible determination by climbing the
three peaks to raise money for two local causes.
The big build at Hatherup,
Hatherup,
Nura?
It's Hatherup Primary School, yeah, get the right school,
where Heidi attends,
and New Astro Pitch at Farmer's School
where Heath and Otis are pupils.
Apparently that's a combined walk of about 23 miles
and a total at the centre of an amazing 10 ,052 feet.
And thanks to their efforts,
they've raised a fantastic 1 ,835 pounds.
Their achievement demonstration demonstrates not only physical endurance, but also incredible
teamwork and dedication.
So let's please join me in congratulating our young unsung heroes, Liam Radford and
Heidi Otis and Heath Forbes.
If you'd like to come up and we'll give a round of applause.
Thank you very much.
.
.
Councillor Mark Harris - 0:29:23
Next up.
Okay, now we have our unsung heroes, honouring those whose quiet dedication makes a lasting
difference.
David will speak.
I don't know if you can hear me.
Oh, we can.
No, David, believe it for the time being.
We're done.
Can I take a moment?
You can say something very quickly, David.
I'll give you 30 seconds.
Councillor David Fowles - 0:29:46
I proposed Heidi Otis and Heath.
I just want to let you know that their mother was here and she spearheaded a campaign to
raised over 350 ,000 pounds for Hathoritt Primary School.
She is a truly remarkable lady and inspiration to us all.
And frankly, without them as a family,
the school would not have the benefit of its own.
And she wanted me to say, if any of you are thinking of a
Christmas present and would like to make a donation to Phase III,
800 ,000 pounds would be great.
Thank you.
Thank you very much, Dave.
Councillor Mark Harris - 0:30:20
I feel another nomination coming on.
Right.
Okay, it's back to our unsung heroes.
Now, first of all, we have Michael Svensson.
His nomination said,
Mike is the reason our village scout group survived
when there were no leaders.
He stepped in, covered multiple sections
until new leaders could be found.
Beyond that, Mike volunteers tirelessly at events
like the South Sony Street Fair,
helps elderly neighbours, maintains the scout hut grounds,
and even assists the local church,
from moving Christmas trees to whatever needs doing.
He never seeks recognition,
but his care and commitment have touched countless lives.
Mike is truly a pillar of the community.
Next, we have Amy Curtis.
Amy leads with her heart, always putting others first.
She volunteers as a holistic therapist at Charlie's Cancer
Support Group in Cirencester, offering free reflexology
and Reiki sessions twice a month to those affected by cancer.
Despite personal challenges, Amy brings warmth, energy,
and hope to everyone she meets.
Her selflessness and compassion make her an inspiration
to us all. Finally, Alan Howe. Alan has been chair of Sire and Sester branch of Royal British
Legion for 30 years and a member for 36 years. He organises a poppy appeal, Remembrance Day
services and fundraising concerts, ensuring that our community honours and supports veterans.
With 22 years of army service and 20 years with the MOD, Alan continues to serve through his
tireless dedication to the Legion and its values. Many of us in this room will know Alan personally
and be fully aware of his unstinting dedication
to public service.
It's been a pleasure to stand beside him at events
such as our very recent Remembrance Day service
and earlier this year at our special event
to mark 80 years since VE Day.
So please join me in congratulating our unsung
heroes, Michael Svensson, Amy Curtis, and Annan Howe.
Please come on up.
Thank you very much.
I'll see you again for your answers.
Thank you very much, sir.
Thank you.
Let's come down here to get a photo.
Again, without hands and socks.
I should have shown you the left hand.
I was just going to try again.
That'd be a bad idea.
Yeah, right about the right.
That's treasury.
Fantastic.
Thank you very much.
Thank you very much to our unsung heroes.
Right, we'll now move on to public questions.
We have one advanced public question.
And of course we do allow people to,
we allow a slot for people to ask questions.
Can I ask for a show of hands of anybody
who wants to ask a question
who's not registered in advance?
Okay, fine, fine.
Fantastic.
Okay, so we have one question received,
Mr. David Regwell regarding local government reform
for Councillor Mike Evermy.
And yeah, Dave, if you'd like to come round.
We're just cranking up the microphone David.
Last time I saw you was at Gloucester, wasn't it?
I think so.
Yeah.
Did you manage to come on public transport?
I did.
You did?
Well done.
There's a round of applause.
You hoping to get back on public transport?
I'm just winding up.
Is it clockwork you see, David?
So I've got two questions.
Public Speaker - 0:35:14
Is it working?
Public Speaker - 0:35:18
Right, so my first question really is about local government organisation.
The last time we changed local government in the Cotswolds and in Gloucestershire was
1974 when the City, the County of Bristol and South Gloucestershire, which came over
and Gloucestershire, the historic county, was split.
Gloucestershire has been a unit for a thousand years.
Chartland Borough Council, on the other hand, has been a council for 100 years.
I make that point because they seem to have a rather chartland -eccentric takeover of the
Cotswolds being planned.
Well, they call it Chotnam and Cotswold Borough Council, if ever gets off the ground.
So my question today is, if we were to split on the lines of two councils plus Bristol
and South Gloucestershire, how would we maintain services into the Cotswolds such as fire services,
police services, we're part of the NHS Trust for South West England, bus services which
are provided, mainly funded in this town and in this district by Gloucestershire County
Council with a bit of support from Wiltshire, very little commercial provided, costs 20
million pounds by the bus service, by the Wiltshire County Council, and just nearly
about 8 million pounds in the Cotswolds area. Those services are major county services like
social services and also planning and highways. If this is split, all this will have two directors
of highways, two directors of social services, two directors of planning, two public transport
directors and a very small team split in half and the police of course have planned to go
with Aiden and Somerset.
Now the police and crime commissioners are going, which I welcome by the way.
So the question is, today is a big decision.
Does this council want to become a small council, really let's be honest, assumed by greater,
by Cheltenham.
That's what the plan is.
Chartenham will assume the Cotswolds. That's what they were talking about their burn meeting. I was there and
Chuxbury, although they don't want to join, or does this council want to continue to be part of a unitary Gloucestershire with a local plan
which will cover Gloucestershire and those elements of housing will also be covered in that plan. Thank you.
Councillor Mark Harris - 0:37:31
Councillor Mike Evemy - 0:37:32
Mike, do you want to respond to that please? Yes, thank you
Mr. Tredwell.
So
obviously we're considering it as you know later on on this agenda item 13.
There are two proposals that we're giving consideration to one for a single
unitary council for Gloucestershire and one for the East West split which I
think you've described in a different way than is described in our papers. So

6 Public Questions

and clearly we as a council will be considering what we think and we will be
making a collective view later on when we discuss this.
And then the cabinet, which I chair, will meet afterwards
and we will make formal representations
on behalf of this council to the government.
I'm sure you're aware, but for the benefit of everybody
watching and for other members, this isn't our decision.
This is a decision that a government minister
ultimately will take.
And the points you raise are raised in the papers.
And they will, the government will need to consider
because we now know that both the single unitary option
and the East -West option,
and indeed the greater Gloucester option
will all go forward to government
because they've all been supported by at least one council.
So the next stage is the government will consider
which of those options is viable
and do a public consultation on what they consider is viable.
So my answer to you is yes, I heard you say you're going to hear the debate.
I don't want to prejudice the debate that we are going to have later on,
but I'm sure some of the points that you've made
in your presentation will be reflected in that debate.
Councillor Mark Harris - 0:39:15
David, do you have a supplementary?
And then we'll go to your second one up.
Oh, right.
Public Speaker - 0:39:20
So my supplementary is will the council, if it goes in favour
of Unity Gloucestershire, support Gloucestershire County Council, making sure that message,
because it will be a public beauty contest, let's be clear. Government teams will be both
in Gloucestershire and they will be in Devon in the south -west region, listening to the
views of the public. I heard that last night in Exeter, they don't live in Devon, but I
heard that listening to their debate. So, will the council, it's obviously doing a lot
on the local plan, which are welcome and housing,
but will also make sure that the views of the people
of the Cotswolds are made very clear to the government
and help make sure those views,
because if there's no input from local authorities
into the way forward with the residents, stakeholders,
and people that live in the area,
then we will get a decision made to us.
And this should be about a decision
that we want made by the government for us.
Councillor Mike Evemy - 0:40:25
Thank you. Yes, it's the short answer to add to what I said before. Once the cabinet has
made its decision, it is my intent as the leader of the council to write a letter to
the government explaining why we are supporting the option that we are supporting and essentially
encouraging the government to choose that option. As I said, there's going to be a public
consultation. My expectation is at least two of the three options will go
to public consultation. Obviously we have a communications department here. The
consultation will be run by the government but we will be absolutely encouraging
residents in the Cotswolds to have their say on whatever the government comes
forward with what the alternatives are so that that voice can be heard and
obviously we will be making our voice heard once we've made our decision and
then I write to the government and obviously we will also put that into the
media to explain why we've chosen what which of the options we think is best
Councillor Mark Harris - 0:41:25
for our district. Thank you Mike. Dave you have a question too. My second
Public Speaker - 0:41:29
question is about the real goal in the room if we're successful with
the with unitary government. That will be a combined mural authority for those who
know mural authorities and both urban like Greater Manchester but also very
rural like the West Yorkshire Mayoral Combined Authority in York.
York and North Yorkshire. I mean that will bring us money to improve the
public bus services. I represent public transit user groups in the county and
across the southwest. But it will also help us to improve the railway station
at Kemble, links to the railway station for instance or bus links that I've been
involved in to Martin in the Marsh in my Royal East Cross Community Rail Partnership.
So the issue there is we've already just, health services gone to Bristol already, went
last few weeks ago, South Gloucestershire, North Somerset and Bristol NHS integrated
care board. So the government is obviously positioning mirror combined authorities very
much on the historic county of Gloucestershire. Can we also have assurances that as police
go to combined authorities as health goes to combined authorities.
We may have fire at combined authorities or it may go just with Avon and Somerset, but
the makeup is making sure that the COTS will get the right combined authority and that's
not one that looks towards Worcester and Birmingham, because I've spoken to the modern marsh, but
a lot of time out there around Stow -on -the -wall, they do not want to be part of any Birmingham
controlled combined authority.
They look west.
So can we have assurance that there will be work by this council with Gloucestershire
working with Helen Goodwin, the Mayor of the West of England, to see if we can find a way
of Gloucestershire joining the Mayoral Combined Authority, hopefully before 2032 so we get
the benefits of a better public transport system, housing and of course regional planning.
Those decisions won't be going to ministers in future.
They will be going to talk to the Mayor about how many houses go into the Cotswolds.
That's the final point I want to make. Thank you.
Councillor Mike Evemy - 0:43:42
Thank you David if I can use your first name.
Yeah, so the Mayoral and the Strategic Mayoral combined authorities is something that has been discussed at leader level.
And where we are very ably chaired by the leader of the County Council sat on the back row here today.
My understanding of that is that it is a decision that will be taken by the new authority or authorities.
So what we have done thus far, and in the papers which I'm sure you are familiar with,
but for those who are less familiar with the two options that we have,
one of the things we were asked to look at is how do they work with a mayoral combined authority.
and that is a material consideration I think that members might want to think
about in terms of the discussion about because for the points that points that
you've made about Gloucestershire wide in the answer to your earlier question
where obviously we have police we have fire and we have now NHS linked up with
Bristol so and I know there have been some discussions and as a role and
particularly is at the moment as Councillor Spivey's leader of the County
Council, she essentially may all combined authorities sit above unitary
authorities or county councils, not district councils at the moment. So I'm
sure this is more, well there will be more discussion about this. I'm sure
you'll be able to make that point and others I'm sure would agree with your
points around links with Weka, but at this point we haven't as a council made
any determination. It's not for us to yet and indeed it will be for the new
combined the new unitary authority or authorities to decide which mayoral combined authority
they want to be part of. But I do accept the arguments you make are strong.
Councillor Mark Harris - 0:45:34
Thank you. Jay, do you have a supplementary to that? I do have another questioner at the
back who...
Public Speaker - 0:45:41
My supplementary is very brief. Just when you look at the mayoral combined authorities,
can we just look at the geography of the public transport network?
Councillor Mike Evemy - 0:45:49
Sure that will be considered as a factor and the economic footprint is another
key factor as you say in terms of looking at that and where the historic
links are in terms of between Gloucestershire whether it's one unit
Councillor Mark Harris - 0:46:07
trees or two and the other potential partners. Thank you very much David, thank
Thank you, Mike. We've got a question back. Would you like to come forward here? And we'll
get you set up. And if you tell us your name, when you sit down. It's difficult, Gloucester
is such a, Gloucester is so big that I guess if you live in Mickleton, that Birmingham's
not that, it's a lot closer than Bristol, isn't it? And if you live in Woodham under
edge.
Benton middle.
Benton middle.
Excuse me if I say it, Mike.
Yeah, yeah, sit down. Yeah, no, it's only the Councillors you have to stand.
First of all, my name is Robert Miller.
Public Speaker - 0:46:45
Good afternoon, everybody. My name is Robert Miller.
I'm a retiree civil engineer, so I'm coming at the following subject.
As a member of the construction industry, it was a shame
that Grenfell Tower had happened.
I plead to you to ensure that on a much smaller scale,
you do the right thing and ensure that your local residents are kept safe
whilst travelling in local private hires and taxis. Yeah. Now I'm quite used to
public speaking as you can probably hear from my voice I'm a little emotional. I
am a retiree so I'm not quite used to it. Right.
Uber. Do not have a CDC licence to operate in the Cops walls. That means
that cars that are coming into the area, and we have quite a number of them, are operating
outside of the regulations. You'll excuse me, I'm not a lawyer.
Back in 2006, the Department of Transport issued guidance on taxis and private hires
so as to assist local authorities. The local authorities have the responsibility for the
regulation of taxis and private riders trading in their district, where personal safety is critical.
The Government has clearly set out these measures through the licencing authorities and should
take safeguarding passengers through the statutory, taxi and private hire physical standards.
As stated in these standards as an issue to the likes of CDC, the primary and overriding
objective of licencing must be to protect the public.
If this isn't important, why does CDC cheque my licence and all the licence to the drivers
accumulated in the back on a monthly basis to ensure that I'm a fit and proper
person to do the job and to protect not only our residents but our many many
visitors. The rural area of the Cotswolds, particularly the North Cotswolds where I
live, has this summer been overrun by out of area private hires hawking. Technology
has not kept up with the regulations, sorry, technology has overtaken the
regulations. For fares, our work that we pay the council a considerable sum of money to
have the privilege to do. And if it isn't important, why did Gloucestershire Police
run a sting operation in 2018 in Cheltenham races to catch out hawkers on the side of
the road? We are the correctly licenced drivers currently estimated, we estimate, sorry, that
there are in the North Cotswolds alone this summer between 10 to 15 cars from
out of area South Gloucestershire, Wolverhampton, South Swindon, Dudley are
coming into our area and working without a licence. So my question is if Uber are
not registered to operate by Cotswolds District Council and this goes
unchallenged how are you carrying out your duty of care? Thank you. I would ask
Councillor Mark Harris - 0:49:48
Public Speaker - 0:49:50
one final thing if I might I would ask in line with what's happening with
Southampton at the moment that the council direct licencing to affect the
geo fence the cult walls that's a cut off the uber app in our area so that we
can effectively get on and do what we are required to do thank you for your
Councillor Mark Harris - 0:50:10
time thank you very much and do we have a respond to that that comes the
Public Speaker - 0:50:16
Thank you, Mr. Miller.
Councillor Andrea Pellegram - 0:50:19
I am the current portfolio holder.
I confess I am new in this job and I don't know that much about taxis yet.
I do know that we are going to be doing a consultation.
You asked firstly how we're carrying out our duty of care.
Obviously, you just described it.
We cheque with you monthly.
We have a whole system of licencing taxi drivers.
I appreciate you talking about everybody else who's also in your same sector.
I think you want us to cut off the Uber app.
I suspect we're not able to do that.
I would just like to meet with you.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I'm going to have to do some research on this.
So can I suggest that I have a meeting with you and your colleagues if you would like?
Okay. And we could have a meeting and we can discuss all of your concerns and see
there's anything that we can do or explain our limitations if we can't do
anything would that be acceptable?
Public Speaker - 0:51:22
Sorry one final thing this came in shortly before I left home this afternoon
but there is a report being put together by Andy Burnham at Manchester who's sick
and tired of why are my streets populated with cars registered in
Wolverhampton. So I'll make sure that the copy goes to you of the links.
Councillor Mark Harris - 0:51:42
Councillor Andrea Pellegram - 0:51:44
Thank you very much. Thank you. Councillor Pérambe, if you want to just respond to that. Can I just leave it to you to contact me?
I see I've got the head of service here as well. So as soon as you want to have a meeting, we'll have a meeting.
Councillor Mark Harris - 0:51:55
It's a pleasure. Thank you very much. I don't think we have any more public questions.
Thank you very much to the public for engaging.
Thank you all for coming along.
Sometimes it is empty in here, but we appreciate your taking an interest.
Let's move now to member questions.
I could ask people to keep the noise down a bit as you leave.
Thank you very much.
Member questions that have been submitted have been responded to in writing.
These are on the desks and on the website. The questions on the agenda are presented in the order received.
Each questioner will be asked whether they have a supplementary question.
They have one minute for that, which must arise out of the original question or the response.
I will then invite cabinet members to respond to each supplementary question.
And they have two minutes to do that and I'd ask you if you can please keep to that time.
So our first question is question from Councillor Julia Judd to Councillor Juliet Layton.
and the District Council's recruitment of enforcement officers and the suitability of
military policing veterans for such roles. I think, Councillor Evney, you're going to
respond to this in the absence of Councillor Layton.
Councillor Mark Harris - 0:53:12
I'm so sorry, yeah. Is there a supplementary? I know.
Councillor Julia Judd - 0:53:20
Thank you, Chair. Yeah, there is a supplementary, only that to shout out for enforcement officers
officers that they do require specific skills.
Sometimes it's not easy.
And those skills, whether they're picked up from,
whether it's from the army or police,
or whether they've grown through the ranks
of planning and licencing,
I just wonder if the salary that's been offered,
which doesn't appear to be much more than the minimum wage,
is that appropriate for the role?
Councillor Mark Harris - 0:53:56
Councillor Mike Evemy - 0:53:58
Councillor Evermy. Yeah, so I don't have details of the salary that you're
describing so I can't answer that question but I'm happy to. I'm happy but I
don't think I would want to answer it without speaking to officers anyway so I
will offer to get a Councillor Judd a written response to that question.
Councillor Mark Harris - 0:54:16
Thank you very much Councillor Evermy and question two is Councillor Laura Hall -Wilson to
Councillor Paul Hodgkinson on the low standard cleanliness and poor facility
and staff management at Syrins Esther Leisure Centre.
Councillor Raul -Wilson, do you have a supplementary?
Excellent.
Councillor Laura Hall-Wilson - 0:54:34
Hi, yes, thank you very much for your response.
And I agree that it's not appropriate to go through
the individual circumstance, but it's indicative of a problem
that I feel that there was with some managerial oversight
of some of the staff at the centre.
I know that we've also gone over the situation
in overview and scrutiny, so I know that some of your
own members might disagree with Freedom Measures' accounts of
their cleanliness in their centres.
I also disagree with their record on temperatures, and I
might be tempted to start taking my own temperature gage to the
pool with me and start making a little note of the temperatures
because they are, I'm sure, not as high as they should be at
times.
Could we, could I ask that we implement some centre -specific
KPIs to start monitoring that and making sure that we're not
just taking for base the information that Freedom Leisure are giving us and that we
are accurately monitoring the situation so that our residents can have the centres in
the excellent condition that they should expect to have them in.
Councillor Mark Harris - 0:55:35
Thank you. Paul.
Councillor Laura Hall-Wilson - 0:55:36
Councillor Paul Hodgkinson - 0:55:40
Yeah, no, thank you very much for expanding on the issues that you raised, overview and
scrutiny last week. Obviously we heard from Freedom Leisure, so it was great that you
were there and they were there to address your point. So I think we've been on a journey
with freedom, I know that's an old cliche, but we have, because when they took over the
leisure contract two and a half years ago, it's fair to say that the previous contractor
had run things down. I actually do think they have made a lot of progress. They've been
extremely successful in bringing new members in, which is a benefit, but obviously the
downside of that is there's so many more people coming into the centres, so many people, more
people swimming, et cetera.
What that leads to, obviously, is a need for greater cleanliness.
And so back in the earlier part of the year, there were some
complaints made about cleanliness.
And what Freedom Leisure did is they introduced extra cleaning
regimes, they had deep cleans, there's a new cleaner, et cetera.
So I do believe they responded to those things.
I think what I need to do as portfolio holder and our senior
officers as well is keep holding to them, then to account on
those things.
So you've talked about KPIs and monitoring we do monitor those things
So our staff our council officers including one member of staff who monitors the contract that's her job to do
So does go in and does monitor things
But I think your experience is just highlight that there are certain things that we want to improve and therefore
We just need to keep holding them to account. So I meet them
formally, regularly, and every month officers also meet with them from this council.
So we're constantly having that on our agenda you'll be pleased to hear.
So I hope that isn't repeated for you, but if it is then you need to let me know.
Councillor Mark Harris - 0:57:24
Thank you Paul.
Okay to question three.
Councillor Tom Stowe to the leader of the council.
Mike on a recent investigation by the Counter Fraud Enforcement Unit and the allegations
against the Council if they're in.
Councillor Mark Harris - 0:57:38
Councillor Tom Stowe - 0:57:42
Yes, thank you, Chair. Thank you, Councillor Evermy, for your response. Now that the mystery
Council has finally broken cover, I'm sure you'll agree that it is in the Authority's
best interest to ensure that no stone is left unturned in establishing what involvement
this Member had in the procurement irregularities outlined in the report. We will be resubmitting
a formal code of conduct complaint in the coming days.
So please can you confirm via the monitoring officer that the outcome of any investigation
will be available to all members?
And given there are a limited number of members who the mystery counsellor could have been,
please could you confirm when you became aware of their identity?
Thank you very much.
Thank you.
Councillor Mike Evemy - 0:58:25
Councillor Stowe.
Mystery Councillor, that's not a term that I've used or that I believe is fair.
I, as I think you may be aware, first became aware that there was an issue with the procurement of these suppliers in February of this year.
So at that point I also became aware that Councillor Harris had some involvement in
the procurement.
The reason that I have not named him is the report did not name him and he was not interviewed
nor asked to provide evidence and there was no Code of Conduct complaint made against
him.
So I didn't feel it was appropriate or my place to name him.
Clearly, you can submit a code of conduct complaint.
Joe himself has submitted his own name in order to clear his name from some of the absolutely
ridiculous things and in some ways libellous things that have been said about him online.
I look forward to seeing the monitoring officer's report, as I'm sure you do, given that Joe
has referred himself for the same matters that you're going to refer him for. I'm sure
it won't be too difficult for her to deal with both the complaints at the same time.
You will get a copy of that report. Joe has said he will publish the report. So we will
know once that investigation is carried out whether Joe did do anything wrong, but he
doesn't feel as he said in his statement that he did do anything wrong. But clearly the
procurement did not go as it should have done. But that's a matter now for the
monitoring officer to determine whether there is any breach of the Code of
Councillor Mark Harris - 1:00:23
Conduct on Joe's part. Thank you. Thank you. Mike going to Councillor Fowls,
question for Councillor Fowls, to Councillor Andrea Pellegram
on the review into whether removing litter bins on public highway laybys is
the correct decision. Do you have a supplement?
Councillor David Fowles - 1:00:43
Thank you, Andrea, for your response. As someone who travels up and down our wonderful district,
it continues to bother me that we have an awful lot of waste strewn across laybys. One
of my colleagues mentioned that there was a report that appeared in the media yesterday
which said that litter being thrown out of cars was becoming an increasing issue
in the UK and that the report concluded that council should put more litter bins
in laybys to enable people to take advantage of them. I was a bit concerned
that the response I got from you suggested it was a bit ad hoc the way in
which bins have either been stolen or broken therefore they were removed and
in other places there are bins that continue to be there because they
haven't been broken or been stolen.
And so I would just urge you to conduct that review
as quickly as possible, because it is a big issue,
particularly with regards to farm animals
on the open fields.
Most of our main roads, like the Fosse Way,
it's a big issue for Councillor Hodgkinson and me,
because we share that road,
and there was a neighbourhood watch group there,
who are constantly -
Councillor Mark Harris - 1:01:57
Question David, question, what's the question?
Just a minute.
Councillor David Fowles - 1:01:59
The question is, can we have an urgent review
and a structured review of the bins that are out there on our public highways, please. Thank you.
Councillor Andrea Pellegram - 1:02:08
Thank you for your supplementary question, Mr. Fells. Councillor Fells, apologies.
As you know, I'm new to this portfolio,
but already I've put a lot of effort into thinking about litter and bins and where they should be.
As you can see from my question, we are in the middle. We've already started the review.
Let me put your mind at rest.
I don't think it was ad hoc, but I wasn't here, so I couldn't say.
I think that it was just, let's say, an unofficial trial to see
what would happen if the bins weren't replaced.
We have actually had a pilot where the bins were taken out,
working with the Cotswold Lakes Trust, Councillor Layton has
told me, and the theory was that if you don't have a bin, then
when it's full people will leave their stuff by the bin and that actually bins sometimes attract waste and if you don't provide a
Bin people take the waste with them and take it home and dispose of it in their own domestic waste and in that case
Of the Cotswold Lakes trust it actually was deemed to be a success and having fewer bins actually reduced the amount of liver litter
litter and I also recently went with
with Councillor Waring to talk to the people of Borton on the water who are suffering from
over tourism. I think we're very well aware of that. Again, litter a big consideration
for them. And they've actually asked to have some of the smaller bins removed to have a
few bigger bins because they also felt that bins caused, encouraged people to litter and
leave things by the side of bins when they were full. So I can assure you I am in the
I'm looking at it very carefully.
You know, we're looking at these pilots, and if you want to come
and talk to me about that, always, my door is open for you.
We can talk about it.
Thank you very much.
Thank you very much.
Councillor Mark Harris - 1:04:03
Thank you, and thank you, David, for your expertise on laybys
in the COTS one.
Just be careful because you too may become a mystery counsellor.
Question five.
James, on your left chest.
Keep it brief.
Councillor Jeremy Theyer - 1:04:24
I unfortunately...
Sorry, is this...
Councillor Mark Harris - 1:04:27
This is relevant.
Hold on, is this a point of order?
No, this is just relevant to what?
This is members' questions.
We have a supplementary, it's not a debate, Councillor Fair,
and we've got a lot to get through.
I can do it on an earlier comment because she stated lay -bys.
No, I'm sorry, Councillor Fair.
And animals, farm...
No, this is not a debate. It's a question with a supplementary and an answer. Debates are later.
Nope, we're not debating it. This is happening. We're moving on to Councillor Len Wilkins'
question to the Deputy Leader.
That's on the person asking the question or the person answering the question. Right,
Councillor Len Wilkins to the Deputy Leader who's not here on the action the District Council can
take to manage the increasing presence of Airbnbs or other holiday lets in
Bortham and other towns in the district good question thank you chair like to
Councillor Len Wilkins - 1:05:20
thank council Layton for her full answer in her absence and you'd be delighted to
know I have no supplementary question
Councillor Mark Harris - 1:05:30
thank you very much and moving on it's nice to know we're covering them off
council Gina Bloomfield to leader of council Mike Ebony on remaining officer
vacancies within the council and whether a policy is in place to address unfilled positions.
Councillor Mark Harris - 1:05:46
Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:05:49
Yes, thank you, Chair. First of all, I confess I struggle for some time to get on the Councillor
portal, which gives access to the very useful dynamic organogram. The problem was to do
with the software change, which IT sorted for me. With LGR and updating the local plan,
it is important that we all use this important resource more frequently and I'd recommend
and any other councillors struggling with it to ask the very helpful IT department for
help. My question, I just want to, it's so important that I squeezed it in. My question,
how many agency staff do we have currently and what further can be done to recruit permanent
staff particularly for enforcement? Because it's so important recruiting these staff because
having people in permanent roles is generally less costly than having agency staff. Thank
Thank you.
Councillor McLeish.
Councillor Mark Harris - 1:06:37
Councillor Mike Evemy - 1:06:39
Thank you, Councillor Bloomfield, for your question.
Obviously, I can't off the top of my head tell you how many agency staff we had, so

7 Member Questions

I'll have to get you a written reply on that one.
Clearly, you know, we do want to recruit permanent staff where we can rather than agency staff
for the reasons that you describe.
We are obviously, though, going into a period of uncertainty with local government reorganisation
and it may be in some cases we're unable to recruit permanent staff and obviously
there's a job that needs to be done. So I'm sure and I'll look to our senior
officers and they'll be listening to this exchange sitting at the front of
the room that you know clearly where we can we want to employ staff on a
permanent basis not just because it's more cost effective but because you know
then they have a stake in the in the work that they're doing and in
in the future of the district in a way
that an agency worker doesn't necessarily have.
And clearly, you know, what we want to do is ensure
that we've got the staff in place to do the jobs
that we need to get done.
And I think we can see how when we've had a change,
so in some of our departments, particularly say planning where,
you know, we did have agency staff for a large amount of time
but now we have a permanent, full permanent team,
what difference that makes.
So absolutely I'm sure that our chief executive and her senior team are looking at where we can
to recruit permanently, but sometimes that's not possible, but we'll get you a written answer about how many
agency staff we currently have.
Councillor Mark Harris - 1:08:16
Thank you Councillor Edelman. Councillor Tony Slater to lead Councillor Mike Edelman on confirming that District Council maintains an active and up -to -date
asset risk register in the face of local government reorganisation.
Councillor Slater, do you have a supplementary?
Councillor Tony Slater - 1:08:31
Thank you, chair. Thank you, Councillor, for the response. It's not exactly the asset register
I was asking about, but the risks associated with both the physical and digital assets
that we hold. So, for example, the recent flooding of this building, we were promised
that there were plans in place to keep a constant review of how safe our assets were. Or the
required before we could sell the old station. So it's just really to reassure
us that the assets themselves are being adequately reviewed.
Councillor Mark Harris - 1:09:08
Councillor Mike Evemy - 1:09:11
Mike, risks as opposed to the assets themselves. Okay thank you Tony sorry for
maybe the misunderstanding of the question. I'm looking obviously to my
left is Councillor Coleman is the portfolio holder for assets.
David Stanley, our Deputy Chief Executive, is the Officer with that responsibility.
I know from having done that portfolio job for quite a number of years, there are regular
discussions about these assets and the issues that we might have with them.
And that ultimately might come into a decision for us as councils to spend money on an asset
or to dispose of it.
And we've done both of those things, certainly in my time as the portfolio holder.
So I don't, in terms of the asset risks, clearly that should be part of the register.
But if you feel it's inadequate what's on there at the moment, I would encourage you
to have either discussions or to send in correspondence to David and Patrick to make sure that we
can make our asset risk register, asset register as good as it needs to be.
Thank you.
Councillor Mark Harris - 1:10:13
Thank you very much.
I'm advised by officers that we've now exceeded, or exceeded, the time allocated to member
questions.
So I'm going to leave the last two questions.
And if members do have any supplementaries to direct them to the members directly as
opposed to here.
Now, we're moving to item eight, and this is the appointment of a permanent chief executive
officer.
So our interim chief executive officer is going to leave the room temporarily.
So, members of the
advisory of this item concerns the employment of the interim chief executive officer to
avoid any potential
section of bias. The interim chief executive officer is withdrawing from the meeting for
the duration of this item and will return once consideration has concluded.
And the purpose of this report is to approve the recommendation of the performance and
appointments committee that the interim chief executive officer, head of paid service and
returning and the returning officer, through electoral registration officer, is appointed
on a permanent basis from the 1st of January, 2026.
And I'm going to go to, I think it's Mike now,
to propose a recommendation.
Thank you, Chair.
Councillor Mike Evemy - 1:11:22
So just to add one tiny amend to the recommendation,
and it was mentioned in your introduction,
but for absolute clarity, the recommendation number three
should say and electoral registration officer
after where it says returning officer.
So the title is slightly wrong.
And apologies, it went through an awful lot of people
and it says electoral returning officer in the subject.
It's the electoral registration officer.
And that's what we have to add in to recommend three.
So colleagues, you will remember that back in June,
I came before you and asked you to appoint Jane Bortman
as our interim chief executive.
Jane came with a wealth of experience,
having been through local government reorganisation twice
as Chief Executive at both Bournemouth and South Somerset.
She has absolutely demonstrated the value of that knowledge
and the input that she's been able to give
on local government reorganisation
over the last six months that she's been,
five months indeed that she's been in post.
And one of the key, I think, selling points for Jane
is that she gives us that real life experience
of having been through that as we head into
local government reorganisation,
potentially the end of this council in March of 2028.
She, just to let you know, so as part of this process,
we had a probation review with Jane,
with myself and the lead of the opposition,
Councillor Stowe and Councillor Layton in September. We sought some feedback at
that time and you know I have been very impressed with the way in which she has
applied herself to her duties. She's given a great level of confidence I think
to staff and also to members in the work and the way that she's led the staff and
we were happy therefore at that point to confirm her appointment as our interim
CEO. We also started a discussion about whether she would wish to become our
permanent chief executive because we had a resolution if you will recall at
council back in June that you know we would need to look at finding a permanent
chief executive and at that point Jane indicated to us that she was enjoying
the job she really liked it here and you know she was keen if she could to to
stay on and continue to be our chief executive on a permanent basis. So we then had some
discussions around the terms for her appointments, which ultimately went through subsequently
to that to the performance appointments committee, as you can read in the report, which met early
in November to make this recommendation to you.
So what we did in that meeting was we looked
at the appropriate terms for Jane.
And she, in discussion, we looked
at what the alternatives might be if we were to look
to make a fresh appointment.
And we concluded unanimously that we would recommend to you
that she should become our permanent chief executive
for I think the reasons that I've described
and I'm sure others may make more to say about that.
What we'd also looked at was the terms of her appointments
and which we agreed the proposed revised terms
that are in the report in terms of the salary.
And we looked at benchmarking salary
and where that was in relation to particularly other chief executives, what we might have
to pay on a day rate if we didn't have a permanent chief executive in post. And we also looked
at an allowance for her to make a, find a home here in the Cotswolds so that she was
able to be based here during her working time based here in the district. So the proposals
are there for you in the report in terms of a proposal on her salary and also one
off allowance for her to be able to find a home here in the district where she's
able to base herself when she is working for us. I'm obviously happy to take any
questions that colleagues may have but yeah I just really wanted to say I think
she's doing a fantastic job for us we're very very lucky I think to have her and
I would encourage all members to support the resolutions. Thank you.
Councillor Mark Harris - 1:16:20
Councillor Evony, before I go to Councillor Stowe who is seconding this, are there any
questions for clarity? Is there anything Mike said that wasn't clear? Okay, we're good.
Councillor Stowe, would you like to speak now or for...?
I'll speak now.
Councillor Tom Stowe - 1:16:36
Thank you, Chair, and I'm happy to second these recommendations on the permanent appointment
of current Interim Chief Executive Jane Portman. I'm glad to have been involved in the process
from the start alongside colleagues on the performance and appointments committee and
have also been involved in performance appraisals that Mike referred to earlier.
Over recent months in the role of interim chief executive, Jane has steadied the ship
and provided the stability and clarity this organisation needed during a period of major
upheaval and uncertainty. The departure of the previous chief executive, changes in political
leadership, the conclusion of phase two of the public transition and perhaps most
importantly the uncertainty brought by the forthcoming local government
reorganisation. Now this is clearly an important decision for this Council with
significant financial implications. The performance and appointments committee
in arriving at its recommendation to appoint Jane on a full -time basis has
considered various options and the outcome was clear. A salary benchmarking
evaluating CEO salaries across Gloucestershire as well as LGA data for
the Southwest and England was carried out in line of the CDC pay policy and
the terms that were arrived at were via this process. An external recruitment
process would be costly, slow and uncertain especially given the limited
tenure of the role ahead of vesting day potentially in 2028. Interim alternatives
should recruitment fail would come at a significantly higher cost without
guarantee continuity or indeed any appointment at all. Appointing Jane
Portman permanently ensures we retain proven leadership, stability and
expertise with direct experience of LGR. Both staff and elected members have
expressed positive feedback regarding Jane during her short tenure and I
myself are very impressed with her record so far. This is the practical most
cost -effective solution that provides stability and clarity for
organisation during this critical period through investing day and for these
reasons I'm pleased to second this item and encourage all members to support the
Councillor Mark Harris - 1:18:42
recommendations in this report thank you. Thank you Tom. Glowing recommendation
there. Does anybody want to speak in debate? No? Good okay.
Councillor, do you want to sum up? No? Right I'll read the resolution then and then
will go to the vote. So the council resolves to one, appoint Jane Portman to the role of
Permanent Chief Executive Officer from effect of 1st January 2026 on an annual salary of
140 ,000 with an additional one -off allowance of up to £8 ,000. Two, appoint Jane Portman
as the council's Head of Paid Service for the purposes of section four of the Local
Government and Housing Act 1989 with effect from 1st January 2026. Three, appoint Jane
Portman as the council's Electoral Registration Officer and Returning Officer for the purposes

8 Appointment of a Permanent Chief Executive Officer (Head of Paid Service), Returning Officer and Electoral Registration Officer

as section 35 of the Representation of the Peoples Act 1983,
and regulation 4 of the Parrish and Community Meeting Polls Rules 1987.
Let's go to the vote.
Don't ask me to repeat that.
We have 29.
29.
Good.
That's 29 .4.
I'm against non -abstentions, so thank you for that.
Shall we get Jane back in?
Councillor Andrea Pellegram - 1:20:19
Councillor Mark Harris - 1:20:38
Mars.
Thank you.
Okay.
Item 9 now.
We're going to go to the midterm review of Cotswold District Council's member allowance
scheme.

9 Mid-Term Review of Members' Allowances Scheme

The purpose of this item is to present the Council the recommendations of the independent
Remuneration Panel which has undertaken a midterm review of the council members
allowance scheme and I think I'm right in saying that oh we've got Nick
Craxton. Hello Nick do you want to come forward and introduce your report just
down here yeah thanks Nick. Nick is the chair of the Independent Remuneration
Public Speaker - 1:21:45
panel. I'm Nick Paxton. I was asked to chair the panel having applied and been
selected to stand up on it. I think firstly I commend you on your
technology because I was late getting here and it worked with ease and I
I think in my report I called out, you know,
I thought that was a really good and broad range of experience
that the officers had selected to the panel covering private
sector, public sector, subject matter experts, and reward, HR,
and also those that were very familiar
with the workings of this council.
I'd say that the decisions we have recommended were subject
to a large amount of discussion.
There were no kind of straightforward things.
A lot of points of views and some of them we brought back
and revisited in light of further evidence.
I think there are a couple of things that are particularly
difficult from a remuneration point of view in terms of the
remuneration of councillors and leadership positions.
We were asked to take into account, I think it's called
the public service element of the role, which suggests that
the remuneration would be less than it would be otherwise.
I think that is slightly at odds potentially with I think the stated aim of the council
to make it more accessible for a wider pool of people to feel they can stand as councillors
and also take on leadership positions. So I think that is problematic in itself.
We had I think written representations from the former leader of the council in terms of
increases for leadership positions that were requested I guess or proposed or
made asks for and we had the opportunity to hear directly and question the
current leader of the council. That in itself you know we were told that he had
the certainly desire to take on to undertake the leader role in a full -time
capacity however as a panel that's not something we can particularly take into
because it's not really legislated or prescribed in any way. And you know, other
leaders may have not done it. And I think that's another thing that's problematic in the
decision -making here. That you know, it would be great, certainly I would love to
see leaders of councils, you know, be forced to take it on a full -time
position. However, I suspect you'd be wanting to pay a hell of a lot more than
than it is on the table here now. To put some context on that, at the beginning of
I had a quick look on indeed .com, which I think is a useful context and noted that in
Cirencester, Screwfix currently have a trade counter supervisor role on about £4 ,000 a
year more than the leaders in the innovation currently would be and still £1 ,000 more
than the increased amount.
So whilst that's an important role and all jobs are, I think it really puts some context.
Certainly, I would suggest that the accountability and scrutiny from this chamber and the wider
public is a hell of a lot more for anyone here than whoever the poor person that I've
chosen to case study who becomes the lucky owner of the trade counter, Olet Screwfix.
But I think you'll smile next time you go to pick up your bag of screws.
Yeah, and I think the other thing I'd just call out, I have no idea if I was supposed
to be talking for a long time or not, so apologies or not, as that case may be, is that as a
that the economic context and affordability
of these recommendations were outside of the scope
and we were not really to consider those.
That was a matter for the council.
Thank you.
I'm happy to answer any questions.
Councillor Mark Harris - 1:25:35
Well, what if we, first, could we, we're going to ask Councillor
Evermy to propose the recommendations and then see
if there are any questions for clarity.
what I think if it's all right we'll leave it there because it's for us to
take the report and so on rather than pick through the how it was arrived at
and so on and we'll take report on face value if that's all right now and I
appreciate you offering to ask questions but I sense that could go on for quite
a while potentially so I'm going to ask council for every to propose
recommendations thanks Nick for your work in doing that
Councillor Edwards, you can go through.
Thank you, Nick, for coming along this afternoon.
I know the work that you and your panel did from talking to our democratic services,
out of quite a few meetings I understand that you had.
Councillor Mike Evemy - 1:26:35
As you mentioned, I had the benefit of joining you at one of those meetings.
And I very much enjoyed meeting with the panel and making suggestions to you,
and answering your questions.
And I really want to thank you for the work that you have done.
So I think it gives us a really good platform to move forward.
The context clearly is that this was a midterm review.
When we met two and a half years ago and discussed the allowances,
we didn't make any changes
to the special responsibility allowances,
which is the fundamental, the big change that you're proposing to us to consider
this afternoon. And I recall that, you know, whilst the discussions of the
previous panel, they recognised that the roles that particularly in the cabinet
were significant and potentially were more onerous or they were taking up more
time than they had previously had done previously. At that point they did not
recommend that we increase the special responsibility allowances because they
weren't clear whether that was a one -off pandemic effect or whether that was
going to persist. I note that from your report you took on board the survey of
members that we did last year in terms of understanding them the workloads of
members and obviously the representations that were made by the
former leader sat behind me and myself and I think at least one member of the
opposition made to your deliberations. I think it's always difficult because we
as we have a dispensation it is our responsibility to determine what the
allowances should be for ourselves and that's never an easy decision to take
but that's why we have an independent remuneration panel.
And, you know, they have looked at the roles,
the cabinet roles and two of the chair roles
and think actually they deserve to have
a special responsibility allowance,
which is increased by a multiple of a half of the basic.
So, you know, that is 3 ,144 pounds more
than is currently given for those roles.
And that recognises, I think, the work that goes into those roles.
But as the chair of the panel said, the allowance, even with the new allowance for the leader,
isn't one, whilst I feel like, you know, it often feels like it is a full -time job.
It's probably not what I was paid in previous full -time jobs, absolutely.
And I wouldn't expect that.
and I don't think those of us who go into local government service expect that.
So I think they've done a very thorough job.
I'm very grateful for the work that they've done.
The fact that they've recommended those agreements,
I particularly call out the increases in the allowance to the two chairs.
I think I'm very proud of this council and how we've seen the strengthening
of the Overview and Scrutiny Committee and the Audit and Governance Committee
in the last couple of years.
and this recognises that by increasing the allowance for the chairs of those committees.
And there's some tidying up that we needed to do around making sure that we've got the
co -opted member allowances into our scheme, clarifying what's an approved duty, having
a basis on which we can look at town and parish council allowances. And as we go towards local
government reorganisation. There will be more that towns and parishes could do
and reflecting that in remuneration where they want to go forward with it I
think is a good thing. So recommendation 10 obviously talks specifically about
sire and sester and those of you who are sire and sester town councillors will need to
talk about that in a minute. But I think but also it recommendation 9 talks about
how, you know, this some more work that officers can do to in the new year to
work on establishing a tiered allowances scheme that can guide town and parish
councils. I think the only other thing that I will add is clearly the
recommendation and I am moving the recommendations on block all 10 that are
on page 27 and 28 of our agenda is to note that the increases are put back to
the first of April 2025. We were a little bit late with that, but I think it's been
worth the wait in terms of the value of the panel members and getting them all. It's not
their fault. They all have done a great job and very swiftly, but in terms of getting
them all together. So they recognise that a midterm review needs to be at the midterm,
which is in the first of January. So I will move the recommendations on blockchain.
Councillor Mark Harris - 1:31:34
Thank you very much Mike. Right, I've got a couple of questions. Hold on a second.
Yep, yep, yep. Before we get to a seconder, we asked for questions for clarity
Councillor Coleman. So I know Councillor Tom Stowe is this?
I was laying down your vision while I was on it.
Ah right, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I will speak once the questions are over.
Fantastic. Obviously didn't take any notice of what I said at the beginning of the meeting.
Councillor Fowls had his hand up for it. You've got a question for clarity or were you telling me that my microphone was on?
Yeah, okay, can you stand up and press your button?
Councillor David Fowles - 1:32:12
The first question is, it would have been more helpful if Nick had been allowed to stay here,
because perhaps the question would be directed at him.
But where it says alternative options, 5 .1, council is required to have regard to the recommendations
that may choose not to agree with them.
I'd be interested in knowing whether the other councils that are involved in this process,
whether they've accepted the recommendations
or whether in the context of what's going on in our country
and the pressure that we're all under with costs,
whether people have waived those recommendations.
So can I ask that off the speaker
or do I need to do it through Mike?
The question is, you know, are we the exception or the rule?
Councillor Mark Harris - 1:32:52
The question for clarity on what Mike has just said.
Councillor Mike Evemy - 1:32:56
As I'm sure Councillor Fowles knows,
as a very experienced member.
It's up to every authority to make its own determination.
I know the local government association is of the view
that that shouldn't be the case,
that there should be a national scheme.
But we are where we are.
There is a national scheme in Wales.
So it's absolutely a matter for us to consider.
I know the panel looks at and they refer to it.
I think they looked at what remuneration allowances are
in other authorities.
But clearly, they've come up with their recommendations, and it's a matter for us as to whether we
agree them or not.
Councillor Mark Harris - 1:33:38
And you said you had a second question for clarity, David.
Councillor David Fowles - 1:33:41
I'd like some clarity over the issue of Syrinsister.
Councillor Mark Harris - 1:33:45
Councillor David Fowles - 1:33:48
We have some very big settlements in the Cotswolds, particularly Morton, which is under huge pressure
with the local plan, et cetera.
And I was just curious if you could just explain a little bit more about why Syrinsister, because
has a big budget which I've always debated they've had a bigger budget
consistently over a number of years but there are other big towns where there
Councillor Mike Evemy - 1:34:11
are huge huge pressures particularly Morton. Thank you.
Sire and Sester my understanding and the members who are members of that council
can tell you my understanding is they already have a members allowance scheme
so that's why there's specific mention of them in this report and I know that
the chief executive of Sire and Cessna town council met with the panel to make that point.
So you've got that. Essentially, it's bringing it to us to formalise in terms of the recommendation
here. You make the point, obviously it is the largest settlement by far, but you do
make the point there are other settlements that have significant workloads associated.
You mentioned Moreton, there's Kepry, Fairford, and obviously there are others. And I think
what recommendation nine does is says that officers engage with the town and
parish councils about that on the option of establishing a tiered allowances
scheme so that if they want to they could come forward with a scheme but
essentially what we're saying right now is Sire and SESTA wants to have a
benchmark for its scheme so its benchmark is 20 % of our basic allowance
going forward if we agree that and then there can be work done in the new year
with the officers looking at schemes if other councils want to do them but it's
entirely up to those councils if they want to go forward and have a members
Councillor Mark Harris - 1:35:34
allowances scheme. Thank you Mike. We've got it I think Angus did you have a
question for clarity? No okay we'll come to you in a second. Right so that's
clarity right I'm seeking a seconder I think Councillor Coleman will be second
in the event, would you like to speak now?
Councillor Patrick Coleman - 1:35:49
Thank you very much, chair.
Thank you very much to the panel, which clearly takes a very professional and very well informed
approach.
Of course, I have a little bit of two feelings on this, because as cabinet member for finance,
this is an extra item on the budget.
But I'm, and I don't want to suggest that I would encourage this, but you will probably
know that towards the end of the report, it does say that you can renounce your allowance
if you wish.
I'm certainly not suggesting that any members do that.
This is a serious question we're looking at.
It's been seriously examined by an independent organisation.
Speaking personally, it does accord with my experience.
I can't say, I'm not going to say I was shocked, but the additional workload of the cabinet
member, which I've never had that role before, only things like leader of the council in
the days before cabinets, that has been quite an eye -opener for me.
And then I see the amount of work some of my colleagues on the cabinet are doing, and
I'm absolutely gobsmacked.
So it's not just about quantity of work, of course it is about quality, and with the help
our offices. I think we're worth the money suggested here. This Council is a leader in
a number of areas, one of which is a generous Council tax support scheme which we'll be
coming to later. But many other and more widely appreciated areas. So in that context, I'm
very, very pleased to be able to second the motion.
Councillor Mark Harris - 1:37:31
Thank you very much, Councillor Coleman. We're going to go to debate now. Tom, you've indicated
Councillor Tom Stowe - 1:37:39
Councillor Mark Harris - 1:37:44
you'd like to speak. No comments? Yes, thank you chair. This isn't planning,
Councillor Tom Stowe - 1:37:49
council. This is the council meeting. Thank you, chair. And firstly I'd like to
thank the members of the independent remuneration panel for their heavily
involved work considering the information and arriving at the
recommendations they have come up with which are before us today. It is
important to confirm that the recommendations that have come forward
are just that they are recommendations and the final decision on whether to
adopt these recommendations sits with members here today. There are a number of
recommendations but the items which carry the largest material impact on
this council is the recommended increase in special responsibility allowances for
around one third of members. The report goes into detail about responsibilities
and workloads of members and the rationale behind their recommendations.
It is clearly true that there are some members who do go way above and beyond in their roles
and in different circumstances it could be argued deserve increased remuneration
to reflect that.
However, we cannot support these recommendations
as this council simply cannot afford it.
These increases are modest on an individual basis, however, the cumulative impact
on CDC's finances will be anything but modest.
The chair of the panel has just confirmed that this has not been taken into account when considering their recommendations
Having spent the last few years pleading poverty and slashing services
So then go and suddenly find an extra thirty six thousand pounds per year of taxpayers money
Down the back of the sofa to splash on pay increases for one -third of councillors is simply not a viable option for this council
This is against the backdrop of Cotswold residents facing the real threat of redundancy
redundancy, or having their take -home pay restricted as a result of the Government's
disastrous policies, which will undoubtedly be made worse following today's budget.
Everyone is going to have to work harder to stand still.
The remarkable concept that we can wave a magic wand in the Councillor's Allowances
budget and go on a spending spree as there have been savings made elsewhere in another
budget is a classic example of public sector thinking.
There is only one pot of money and this is taxpayers money and any savings made
elsewhere should be passed on to taxpayers or invested in delivering
better value for taxpayers not used to justify a spending spree. To sum up, thank
you to the Independent Enumeration Panel for their recommendations. They have been
duly considered however given the state of the council's finances and the
difficult and uncertain times that lay ahead it's a luxury that we cannot
forward and it's a no from me. Thank you.
Councillor Mark Harris - 1:40:26
But I'm going to go to I had Angus before and then I'm going to go to
Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 1:40:36
Julia and then Ray. Thank you very much chair. I just want to raise a question
concern regarding one of the positions that was left out.
Coming from Morton, which as you all know
and has already been mentioned,
is likely to be the recipient of a large number of houses,
in our present situation,
and I think we all know what the present situation is
with respect to housing,
we can expect an increased workload
and an increased responsibility,
including around that the sensitivity of deciding
when an objection can be made to a development that might lead
to an appeal, a very costly appeal.
And therefore, the workload is likely to be much increased
and the sensitivity and concerns about that.
So I'd like to be sure that there is a comfort
that we will be able to maintain the level of work
and because we've talked about how much work has gone into others,
I can see a great increase in the amount of work and responsibility
that falls into this area of planning.
And it has been left out and I just would like us to be assured
that that will be able to grow suitably
and not be left behind in the process.
Councillor Mark Harris - 1:42:02
Councillor Julia Judd - 1:42:08
Thank you Angus. Julia, sorry, Councillor Judd. Thank you chair. I'd just quite like to look at
this situation from a completely different angle. I mean what are we doing here? We're elected,
we're elected by our communities to serve our community. We had a choice to do that. It's not
a job being a councillor. It shouldn't be looked at as being a job. We shouldn't be
looking to council taxpayers for money to pay us. We should be doing it because we believe
in our community, because we're trying to do the right thing. And everybody else in
the, all of our other council taxpayers, they are facing the same financial hardships that,
as anybody else, but we shouldn't be looking to them now for more money for whatever reason and I'm sorry Councillor Jenkins
and I'm sorry that the work is a lot of work for you, but you signed up for that and
you have a choice and
The trouble is of paying politicians too much money
It ends up become the motivation becomes wrong
It becomes the financial advantage and it reduces the quality of the politician
because you're getting a politician who's doing it for themselves because they want
to make more money, not because they care about their community.
So don't dilute, don't dilute the quality of our politicians by awarding this pay rise.
I do appreciate you cabinet members working incredibly hard, but that is your choice and
you went into this to support your communities. I'm sorry I'm a stoic and I believe in Socrates
and he was the architect of democracy in the first place and it's a very important point.
Councillor Mark Harris - 1:43:57
Thank you Julia and we're going to go to Councillor Brasington now.
Councillor Ray Brassington - 1:44:02
Thank you. Difficult this one. I fully appreciate the hard work that all cabinet members and the leader, the deputies and the chairs have given me to do because I've been in that position myself.
I appreciate that. However, I've been looking at the figures that have been
proposed and looking at them what I've seen is that what's being proposed is
for the leader will get an increase of 17 percent, the deputy leader will get a
rise of 25 percent, the cabinet each cabinet member will get a rise of 33 percent,
Chair, no one else will get the rise of 50%.
I'm a chair of audit, we'll get a rise of 100%.
Well, bear in mind, we've got an inflation rate
at a moment of 3 .6%.
We've got food inflation at 4 .9%.
We've got a crisis and the cost of living.
I'm very sorry, but I cannot support this increase
and I shall not be voting for it.
Councillor Mark Harris - 1:45:11
Thank you very much, Councillor Brasington. We've got Councillor Spivey next, then we've
got Councillor Turner. I've got Angus down here, and I've got Claire, and then David.
Councillor Lisa Spivey - 1:45:29
Lovely, thank you. I stood up to speak on this because I think it is really important,
and I think actually I'm going to completely disagree
with Councillor Judd on many of the things that she said.
And, you know, I've heard the sort of rhetoric
from that side of the room has been about,
you know, value for money.
I've heard about spending sprees.
I've heard about Councillors getting paid too much money
and about the quality of politicians.
And I have to say that I take the opposite view
from Councillor Judd and I think that in fact,
by actually offering a decent amount of money,
then we will actually encourage more people to get involved in local government.
I do see this as a duty, and like you say, I have a choice, I don't have to do this.
But it's also a real privilege, and I think it's really important to note that for some people,
that privilege of being able to represent your community does come at having to...
There's a payoff with that, because if we want to encourage more people,
younger people in particular into politics and get that new breadth of
viewpoints, they do need to be remunerated and actually when we look
at what the Councillor Allowance is, it isn't even by today's standard and we
saw in today's budget the rise of minimum wage, it doesn't meet minimum wage in
any way shape or form. Now there might be an argument that it doesn't need to meet
minimum wage because it's not a job but I would argue that if you want to have
really good quality democratic representation, then you want really good quality candidates
to stand for election and to represent their communities. We all talk about democracy and
we all believe in that, but if we want genuine democracy, if we want a wide breadth of different
types of people in our chamber representing communities, then I think it's really, really
important that we recognise that for some people that comes with a choice.
And, you know, I take this as a real privilege to be able
to represent communities that I like.
But I think that if we want to have equality and if we want
to have really good quality politicians,
we can't pay them too much.
And, you know, when I think about the amount of decisions
that we make, they have real impacts on people's lives.
Here, as counsellors in local government, we are the ones
that are making the decisions every single day
that change people's lives, whether that's the conservatory
on your planning application, whether that's around council tax, rebates, how we want to
support the most vulnerable in our communities. It's about how we treat our taxi drivers who
are trying to make their living, et cetera. So we really do have a really important role
and I don't think that should be underestimated and undermined by not having an allowance
which is enough. And quite frankly, that job at Screwfix sounds absolutely brilliant and
I might be applying for that later on today.
Councillor Mark Harris - 1:48:23
Thank you very much Councillor Spivey. The important thing is you understand the difference between a posidrive and a Phillips and you're in.
Okay, I've got
Councillor Claire Turner next and then I've got Angus.
Councillor Clare Turner - 1:48:36
Thank you. Councillor Spivey has largely made the points I wanted to make but
representing your community and being a local councillor should not be the preserve of the wealthy or the retired.
Our communities are so diverse and if we ever want to reflect that diversity in this council chamber
we have to remove the barriers to people.
I think it's pretty outrageous to say that decision -makers,
particularly in these special responsibility roles,
should be the preserve of those who can volunteer full -time.
And so I think I would urge colleagues to consider
that a vote in support of the increase
is an investment in democracy, an investment in equality.
And as mentioned already, those with deeper pockets
are very welcome to forego their allowance.
But that should be a personal choice and not a barrier
to people representing their communities.
Thank you very much. Thank you very much, Councillor Turner.
Councillor Mark Harris - 1:49:29
Councillor Angus Jenkins, you were named, so you're coming back, and then we've got
Councillor Clare Bluma.
Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 1:49:35
Thank you, Chair. Yes, indeed I was.
So, in response to the comments that were made from the other side of the house,
I just want to say firstly, the room.
That the person I was, the role I was referring to was not my own,
but a different person's role and a different body,
and that nothing has been allocated to the role that I have.
And by the way, I have taken on extra responsibility
without any allowance whatsoever.
I want to refer you to the fact that sometime back I was invited
by the former leader to meet with him in order
to discuss becoming a member of this body,
becoming a counsellor, to stand as it.
And in the meeting with him, I commented on the money.
I said, well, you know, this is an allowance.
Clearly, this is not an amount of money that's intended
to be any kind of an incentive to do this job.
If it was intended to be an incentive, it would have
to be a lot higher.
I happen to be in a fortunate position
where it was not a concern to me what the level of allowance was.
There are other people in this room who are also
in that situation, perhaps a number on the other side.
My concern at this point is exactly the one
that we've just heard from the previous speaker.
It is really important that we have a representation
from very many different groups
and that this does not block people from being able
to participate in important democratic
and that we do not hear the voices that we need to hear
that might actually need a little bit of support
to help them to actually do that.
Councillor Mark Harris - 1:51:25
Thank you very much.
Just before we go on, could we, could we,
if you're a Sire and Sister Town Councillor,
I think we should probably at this point make yourself known.
I'm sorry, I'm just a town councillor.
We have councillor Coleman, councillor Payer -Gramme,
councillor Bridges, that's it.
Okay, just so we're aware of that and for the record,
are we happy with that, is it?
Yes. Yeah, good.
Okay, thanks very much.
Councillor Bloomer.
Yeah, thank you, chair.
Councillor Claire Bloomer - 1:51:52
I don't really think I need to say a lot
because I think both councillor Turner
and councillor Spivey covered my point.
As a single mum when I became a councillor
and I didn't have an allowance at that time at all,
I really encourage and speak to so many people
in our communities that would love to get involved in council and in politics
but sadly can't and like we've stated from both Councillor Turner and Councillor
Spivey we really do need diversity from all different walks of life. Thank you.
Councillor Mark Harris - 1:52:20
Thank you very much Councillor Bloomer. Councillor Fowles volunteering to
Councillor David Fowles - 1:52:28
rescind his allowance. Getting out of the lay -by. No longer in a lay -by. I was
I was interested when I said could we have comments,
and you reminded me that I wasn't at a planning meeting,
and then we've had for the last 15 minutes people
making comments.
Debate, okay, we'll call it a debate rather than comments.
Call it a chamber rather than a house.
All I wanted to say is I don't think it's an issue of trying to
prevent people who are younger wanting to come into a government.
I've seen a lot of young people in this chamber,
a lot of young people, the only people younger than me certainly
come through this chamber and certainly at parish councils. I just want to make two points.
I don't think it's the privilege of the wealthy to represent their communities. I think in
the current climate with the budget, with the pressure that we've got, I thought Councillor
Stowe spoke very well, is sending out the wrong signal. It's a sum of money, but it's
the wrong signal to send out at a time firstly when people are under pressure. But from a
political point of view and a democratic point of view, what worries me is we're paying,
certain people in this room more money, whatever you want to call it, membership
allowance, at a time when we're just about to change the structure of local
government and expect more from parish councils who aren't paid a brass
farthing. And I think that is sending out a bizarre signal to people and I for one
am delighted that I'm, if I'm going to vote, I won't be voting for it certainly,
but I'm not going to be one of the beneficiaries of this. So I can say that
Councillor Mark Harris - 1:54:00
to my parish councils. Thank you very much, Councillor Fowles. Parishes make the
choice themselves if they pay themselves an allowance not us that's up to them to
Councillor Dilys Neill - 1:54:15
choose. Councillor Dillis. Thank you very much. First of all I just wanted to name what the
basic allowance is for councillors. I don't know if that's come up before but for anyone who's
watching at home. Sorry? The basic allowance for a councillor with no special
responsibility is £6 ,288 a year. Taxable? Yes, taxable. And I'm expecting that quite
a few members of the public may think it's considerably more than that. So even
with the special responsibility allowances it isn't a huge amount of
money. So I just want to speak to the issue about planning. I'm currently chair
of planning and I do indeed receive a special responsibility allowance. It
And I think that's fair because I don't think my workload
as chair of planning has gone up recently.
Whereas I'm absolutely quite sure that the role
of the people who are chairing ONS and audits and governance
which are really so important to those committees,
I'm sure that's gone up enormously.
And indeed, so has the cabinet workload,
particularly in these times of local government
reorganisation with such a lot to discuss.
So yeah, I would support this recommendation.
I'm particularly pleased.
We've been discussing the fact that
with the advent of unitary authorities,
it's likely that there will be a bigger workload
for town and parish councils.
And I particularly pleased to see included in this report,
the suggestion that our town and parish councils
could look together at remunerating those people
who there's not that many willing volunteers
in the community.
And so those who do put themselves towards
to serve the community,
I think it's a great idea that town and parish councils
should also be able to award themselves an allowance.
It's not a salary, but an allowance just to reflect
the work that they're doing.
Thank you.
Councillor Mark Harris - 1:56:11
Thank you, we've got Councillor Joe Harris next.
Councillor Joe Harris - 1:56:17
Thank you very much.
This is always a interesting debate
And it's an interesting debate because every time we debate it,
we have exactly the same arguments and exactly the same
outcome, don't we?
Yeah, this is the third we've had since we came to
administration in 2019.
And I actually think it's really positive that we've had a
progressive members' allowances schemes.
Under the previous administration,
members' allowances were frozen for year after year after year.
In fact, I think they didn't go up for over a decade.
And, you know, if I'm being charitable,
If you looked around this council chamber, it was not a particularly diverse set of people
around the table under the previous administration.
It's great to see that we've now got some youth and vigour on the opposite benches today.
I want to say a big thank you to the Remuneration Panel team, particularly Nick and also Nicky.
First Remuneration Panel that they've undertaken.
I think actually they've done a really good job.
This is a comprehensive and a thorough report
that presents with a lot of clarity,
the rationale and the reasons for the recommendations.
And that's not always the case in remuneration pattern.
So can I say a big thank you to everybody
and David, of course, it's great to have you.
And can I just apologise for the debate
that you have here in this chamber,
because we know you go away, you do a lot of good work
and quite often it comes to council,
half the council trash it,
half the council say it's a great idea,
and then usually it goes through.
On that political point,
and it wouldn't be a speech for me, would it,
without a political point,
I just want to say to the opposition,
we've heard all these rehearsed arguments
time and time again.
We hear these passionate moral arguments about,
oh, well, that whole principle of public service.
There's no principle over there when it comes to this.
They're sat in their group meeting.
They've decided that it's politically convenient
to vote against what they can then sell as a pay rise, and then they put it on their leaflets.
And we know that, don't we? Because every time we've ever done this, a few months later,
we get leaflets going, those lib Dems, those lib Dems, they've put their pay up, you know,
they're all sat on their giant salaries, and it really engages and annoys their core vote.
So, you know, we talk about principle over here. The reason I know it's political convenience is
because when we have this debate at the county council, up until May this year, the Conservatives
And they were rehearsing all of the same arguments that we've been rehearsing on this side of the chamber
So, you know it is about political convenience ultimately, but we're here not always to do. What is the politically convenient thing?
We're here to do the right thing and as far as I can see being the leader and if from my experience being the leader
Of a district council is a full -time role. It really is if you're going to do it justice
Say this with my LGA happen as well. I mean council leaders across the country
It is a full -time role and we should reflect that in our remuneration
I'd also say the remuneration for the leader is lower on average than most councils of a similar size to
Cotswolds, so I think that is absolutely
That is absolutely critical and of course our cabinet members cabinet members carry the bulk of the decisions that this council
Takes they shape policy
They work day in day out with officers to you know to make sure that this council continues to function
And I think that is absolutely critical
and we should absolutely recognise that.
So I know this is not always
a politically convenient decision to make.
It doesn't necessarily get great headlines,
but it is the right thing to do.
And my final point is we hear a lot about the cost of living.
We hear about the struggles that many people face.
Well, actually a lot of our members
have exactly the same struggles
that the public out there do.
So I don't think people should be disadvantaged and penalised simply because they happen to be a a district councillor
So I think this is a really good report. I think I think the team that have pulled it together. Yes
It's a politically difficult decision
But I do think it is the right decision and we've got really good rock -solid rationale as I've lined up in the report
Councillor Mark Harris - 2:00:28
Thank you, Joe. Right. We've got two more people to speak
I've got three more. If you could keep your comments tight and if you think you
can change the outcome great but otherwise keep it tight because we need
to break in a few minutes because we've been we've been going at it for two
Councillor Laura Hall-Wilson - 2:00:51
hours. So we've got Laura. Thank you chair. It might surprise some of you to know
that I have actually defended additional spending as a member of the public
at Tepry Town Council to ensure that we had good representation
and that people that wanted to stand
for the town council had appropriate IT equipment.
So that might surprise some of you to know.
But I also think there's a strong argument
to provide a good level of pay for elected representatives
so that we do attract the best quality to come
and represent people.
At local government level, it's unlikely,
and I'm going to make a slight generalisation,
that people can survive on what they earn by being a councillor alone. So I
think that unless we're talking about a very significant increase we're not
going to be able to provide for everybody just on what they earn as
being a councillor. In the current economic climate I think it's very
difficult to justify to residents sitting in this room and voting for an
to payments to councillors. So whilst I understand the arguments and I'm very
grateful to the panel who've put an awful lot of work into this, as Councillor Stowe
said it is a recommendation and I think that in the current climate it would be
very difficult to justify to residents that we voted in favour of it and
therefore I won't be supporting it I'm afraid.
Councillor Mark Harris - 2:02:15
Thank you Laura and now we've got Councillor Conion.
Councillor Laura Hall-Wilson - 2:02:18
Councillor David Cunningham - 2:02:25
Thank you Mr. Chair. I suppose I really want to make a comment about the fact
that this is an independent remuneration panel that's come to this decision and I
think that needs to be made very clear about what's going on here but
also I would just like to say that although it is mentioned within here
that the numbers will be absorbed within the budget. There isn't a great deal of
detail that's been put forward by the 151 officer about how that's been done.
So in future I would think it might make it a little bit simpler if we were able
to do that. Thanks.
Councillor Mark Harris - 2:03:11
Thank you, Councillor Cunningham. If this is a Premier League you could get a yellow
I'm not sure I'm going to be able to talk for that.
But, Councillor Bloomfield.
Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:03:18
Thank you, Chair.
Well, obviously, as the Chair of Open View and Scrutiny,
I am a beneficiary of this.
And so I'm conflicted in some degree.
And I've heard all the arguments and the views put forward
and I actually, it sounds rather silly,
but I can almost agree with all of them.
So we've got a cost of living crisis
and then we pay ourselves more.
It doesn't look terribly good.
And yet, and yet, what I'm going to say is I'm very aware
personally I'm going to say overview and scrutiny, but in many of the other major roles in this
council, there's an awful lot more work going on. And if it's going to be something which is
just going to make my husband a bit happier, because he, it takes a while to get here and a
while to get back and then there's lots of meetings. Overview and scrutiny is never less than
three hours. Great Councillor Harris, Joe Harris, you're going to be, it's always going to be
three hours. I don't see that changing very much in the next two years. So I am sort of
saying yes, it doesn't necessarily look absolutely right. On the other hand, the workload has
changed enormously. So the independent review panel has had, they have given their opinion,
they have given it a lot of thought. On the basis of being sort of conflicting, whatever,
I'm actually going to abstain. So thank you.
Councillor Mark Harris - 2:04:35
Thank you, Councillor Bloomfield. Right, we'll get a vote in a second, but before I just said a couple of things, if I might, and just to build out on the points that Councillor Neill made.
A few years ago, somebody on social media, when we, straight after we got in, said, I can't believe that the first thing they do is put up their allowances, which was the result of our colleagues putting out some news on that.
and I had a little backwards and forwards on social media.
And he said, yeah, but it's, you know, you're doing, and I said,
I said, hold on a minute.
How much do you think we get?
And he said, I don't know, 40, 45.
I said, 40, 45, 45 ,000 pounds.
Yeah, about that.
That's what I'd expect you'd probably get.
I said, no.
And I told him that it was about 5 ,800 at the time.
In fact, the average in the UK at the moment for a council is
between 5 ,800 and 16 ,000 pounds a year.
and we're proposing here 6 ,288 for the basic.
It's true that on the town council,
we do get 45 pounds a month.
So, yes, I think it's worth getting it into perspective.
The total cost of this, the additional cost,
is 36 ,000 pounds, which is considerably less
than that 45 ,000 pounds that the public think we get each.
So, thank you for that.
Let's go to the votes and then we go. Sorry you want to sum up don't you Mike? Yeah, go for it
Go for it won't take long bullet. Thank you chair, and thank you all the members
Councillor Mike Evemy - 2:06:03
They've spoken in the very lively debate as Joe said it's the third iteration for those of us who've been here since
2019 and in large part the arguments are very similar
Just wanted to pick up some points and counter some of the suggestions
particularly that this council has ever pled poverty or slash services. We've done neither of those things.
So I don't think that's a fair reflection
from the lead of the opposition about where we are. This isn't a spending spree.
As we've just heard in total the increase would be thirty six thousand pounds.
It's a modest increase for ten people of which I am one who have some of the most
the heaviest workloads amongst the members of this council.
And it's a recognition of the work that those 10 people,
those 10 post holders, whoever they are,
need to put in to do a great job.
And some of us put in incredibly more than that.
And obviously that was referenced in the debate.
I think to Councillor Jenkins's point was, I think,
answered by Councillor Neill as to why there isn't,
the panel hasn't suggested an increase
to the SRA for planning and licencing.
I didn't suggest that.
And obviously Councillor Layton isn't here this afternoon,
but she is someone who has done both that job
and the cabinet member.
And from conversation with her earlier today,
it's very clear that when she became the cabinet member,
she had to do a lot more work than when she was the chair
of planning and licencing.
So we're now reflecting that there will be a distinction
between the two.
And I think as Councillor Bloomfield has mentioned,
and the chair of ONS, you know, it's great
that we've now got, we've got nine meetings a year,
we've got pre -scrutiny, we're sitting at the front there
answering members' questions.
That didn't happen when the last time
that the SRAs were looked at.
And it's a testament to the work of the committee
that the panel has recommended an increase
to the chair for that role.
To Councillor Judd, it's not a job,
absolutely it's not a job, and we should be doing it,
and we are, I think, because we believe in our community.
But I think the point that Councillor Spivey made very powerfully is some people do need a bit of money in order to be able to
Take part because without that they can't make ends meet and we need to be
Ensuring that we have a reflection of that of people who stand for election to this to this chamber
To Councillor brassington. I appreciate the point when you put percentages the numbers can get very high
But actually what we're talking about is per random
£3 ,144 per annum more for 10 people. That's what we're talking about.
And yeah, so I think in terms of the work that they do the panel has suggested that that it merits that.
To
Councillor Turner, absolutely. I think we must remove barriers
and we must make sure that you know people who have a lot to give but
financially more constrained can still make it here or to the new unitary
council. Obviously that's for the new council to determine but you know for
what we can do now we should reflect that. And to Councillor Jenkinson's
other points yeah absolutely people aren't doing it for the money and most
of us are in a relatively fortunate financial position but not all of us
even in this this chamber. And to Claire, Councillor Bloomer we absolutely need
diversity. And to Councillor Fowles, we're not seeking to prevent young people from standing.
I think the current climate point, there will always be a time and it's always a difficult
thing to do, as I said at the start, to get up and say, we think we ought to increase
the allowances for members. That argument, I think, as Councillor Harris said, has been
heard twice before in this chamber and we've heard it again this afternoon. So, and to
to Council Hall -Wilson.
I think, yeah, I take the point about being unlikely,
I think, to, sorry, I've lost my track slightly.
The current economic job climate
was what you were talking about.
And yet supporting members,
I think is what you were talking about
in Tethbury Town Council.
And I think that's what we're doing here,
supporting members to do the roles
that we have asked them to do.
I think the point Councillor Cunningham made,
obviously when we set the budget,
we didn't set an allowance for this.
When we inherited the budget in 2019,
it didn't have an allowance for this,
although there was a review.
And it's always difficult to set an amount
in advance to know,
but clearly obviously that will later plan through
and the deputy chief executive and the cabinet member
will obviously incorporate that in our finances.
So I would say thank you to the points Councillor Bloemfeld made about the role of O 'Bannes
Chair.
So I would thank everybody for the debate, encourage you all to support the recommendations
in front of you.
Thank you.
Councillor Mark Harris - 2:11:12
Right, let's go to the vote.
So I was just so impressed by how you hit your mark there.
Do we have a nominated charity for those who don't want to accept the award?
Okay.
We've got 28.
We've got one more, I think.
We're missing one person.
Has anybody not voted?
Oh yeah, we got a total of 28.
We had a total of 29 before.
It looks like somebody may not have voted.
But anyway, it's 18 for, seven against, three extensions, so it wouldn't change if somebody
did.
So that's passed.
Thank you very much.
Okay. Right.
What we're going to do is we're going to take a break now.
It's 10 minutes.
I'm setting a 10 minute here and I'm going
to start the meeting back in 10 minutes.
So if you're not here, you're going to miss it.
4 .25.
4 .23.
Okay. So we're 35 minutes behind schedule.
Yeah.
According to the timing.
Yeah. Yeah.
Okay.

9 Mid-Term Review of Members' Allowances Scheme

Okay, and we're going live now. We're back in the room, as they say. Yeah. This is Zach
Palamski joking there, by the way. Right. Moving now onto item 10, which is council

10 Council Tax Support Scheme 2026/2027

tax support scheme. And the purpose is, can we keep, thank you, to consider the revised
Council Tax Support Scheme for the Financial Year.
Councillor Patrick Coleman is going to propose this.
Councillor Coleman.
Councillor Patrick Coleman - 2:13:13
Thank you very much, Chair.
The councils have a discretion at our level,
at District Council, and I guess the Unitaries do too,
over how they organise and rate
their Council Tax Support Schemes.
Council tax support is a scheme to reduce council tax bills for people of working age
on low incomes and or who receive benefits. The proposal before us today is to continue
our existing policies by an up -rating in line with welfare benefits. The annex has an illustrated
a table showing an increase of, that's on page 61, 3 .5%, but the numbers before you
today that I am proposing are the ones shown in paragraph 3 .3 based on a 3 .8 % increase.
I did ask AI on my phone and 3 .8 % is the amount by which welfare benefits have gone up. So
Turning backwards one more page, you will see the recommendation on page 55.
What I am proposing is to agree the increase to income bans is detailed within paragraph
33 of this report.
I am hoping that with the approach of the unitary system that we will be able to make
some early moves towards harmonising our policies
with those of the other five districts.
Assuming, and of course it's not a correct assumption yet,
that we'll be a single unitary authority.
It seems to me that the sooner we can start
making things equal, that should be equal,
across the whole of the new council, the better.
We believe, though I have not checked this,
that ours is the most generous
on a perfectly generous scheme in the county.
Now the abolition of the two child limit,
which I understand was announced today,
although I didn't hear it myself,
will have a knock -on impact.
And for that reason, if anybody did want to ask questions,
and other reasons, we do have our resident expert officer,
Mandy Fathers, who is able, if wished,
to answer any questions.
If I get it right, I think it's that the couple with three or four children, which you can
see are asked to end Collins, will be getting more money from the government because they
have three or four children, but that will knock them down if they were in band one 100%.
That will push them so that they are now in band two.
In a sense, they will get a substantial amount more per week from the government in the abolition
of the two child benefit limit.
We will, through asking them to pay 20 % of their council tax in this example, so they
only get 80%, we will be taking a little bit back.
I haven't got the numbers because they can be worked out later.
But overall, they will still be better off.
I think I've extended this item as far as I can but I must express my sincere
thanks to to some Andy fathers and the and indeed my predecessors who brought
this scheme in thank you thank you very much council Coleman
anybody got has anybody got any questions for clarity is anything
Councillor Mark Harris - 2:16:55
council Coleman said that you're unsure about all of it no right we've got a
Seconder, Councillor Bloomer.
Yeah.
Yeah, thank you, Chair.
Yeah, great to second this
Councillor Claire Bloomer - 2:17:10
and I hope everybody else will also.
I know that there are many families,
working families as well that are struggling
with the cost of living.
So I really welcome this.
And also I think it's great, again,
from the officers and what they've been doing.
I know that many residents have been very thankful
for the time that they've given to people,
especially with our hardship funding as well,
and also the LIFT programme, the low income family tracker
that was brought in as well, which I know actually goes out
and sort of looks for people that may not be claiming
to just make sure that everybody's getting everything
they're entitled to.
And I know that every year when our council tax bills
go out, they also get a benefit leaflet
and support that's available.
So thanks for the officers and yes, thank you.
Thank you very much.
Councillor Mark Harris - 2:18:02
Budget alert, Rachel Reed.
April 26th, the two child benefit cap is gone.
Would anybody like to speak?
I've got Councillor Joe Harris.
Councillor Joe Harris - 2:18:26
I think, you know, the way that this council has led over the past few years on cost of
living support should absolutely be commended.
I know that other councils from across the area and nationally look to COSL as a really
good model of how we're helping to support the most vulnerable people in our society.
And that all started, didn't it, at the start of this Lib Dem administration when we bought
in one of the most generous council tax support schemes in the country.
I am incredibly proud of that.
And I know, because I talked to colleagues at Citizens Advice, benefits and support advisors,
that that support really does.
It's Rachel Rees.
No, go away.
Telling you're busy.
in life is peerage or something. No I think I think the council tax support
scheme really has helped people and you know the proof is in the pudding because
we speak to people don't we in our own communities that really do benefit from
it and Claire's mentioned the lift scheme the council tax support scheme
alongside the lift scheme has transformed outcomes for local people
while we're on this I want to pay a massive tribute to Mandy fathers in
particular and her team because it's one thing it's one thing these policies on
paper is quite another delivering it it is complicated I look at those
spreadsheets you know with the tables and all the rows and numbers going
across and I have absolutely no idea what I'm looking at most of the time but
people like Mandy are able to put that in a format that we can understand and
that critically the public can understand.
We know that so much of the financial hardship
that residents in the Cotswolds in particular face,
yes, comes down to budgeting, but it also comes down
to a very complicated system.
If you have ever tried to claim universal credit,
it is an absolute nightmare.
And we're very lucky.
We've got a number of charities and organisations
who help people do that.
But also our own staff at Cotswold through Publica
do a really good job of helping people on the pathway
to claiming benefits and to helping support.
So we've got a brilliant tax support scheme,
we've got a brilliant lift scheme
that helps people get the benefits they deserve.
I'm absolutely thrilled because it's something
that this council has been calling for for a number of years
that the awful two -child benefit cap that was brought
in under the Conservatives has finally been announced
and it's going to be scrapped today.
That is the best way to take children
out of child poverty in this district.
and it's a disgrace that it was introduced in the first place.
So I'm really pleased that on poverty and rural poverty in particular,
here in the Cotswolds, we have got three brilliant schemes now,
two of which have been very much led by this council,
but we've got three brilliant schemes that are really going to make the difference
when it comes to heating or eating and fundamentally taking children in particular
out of child poverty.
That is a record we should all be proud of.
Councillor Mark Harris - 2:21:32
Thank you, Jo. Okay, do we have any other, any more debate? Okay, I think on that basis
it's Councillor Colman if you'd like to sum up or if you...
Thank you very much everybody. Thank you for your expected support.
Councillor Patrick Coleman - 2:21:43
Councillor Mark Harris - 2:21:46
Thank you very much and I'll read how long is the resolution, yeah we'll go for it. Council
resolves to one, agreeing the increase to income bans is detailed within paragraph 3 .2,
3 .3 and Annex A of this report from the 1st of April 2026.
Agree that any balance remaining in the earmarked reserve hardship fund be made available in
26 -27 financial year for reasons detailed in paragraphs 3 .6 and 3 .7 of this report.
Let's go for it.
Okay, it's 28.
29, 4.
Okay, who was that last one?
It's out of curiosity.
It wasn't me.
Okay, 29 -4, no abstentions, no. And that's carried. So thanks very much,
Councillor Coleman. Okay, on to Item 11 now, Community Governance Review.

11 Community Governance Review

This is proposed by Councillor Mike Ebony and it's seconded by Councillor
David Fowle. So Mike, would you like to introduce this, please?
Councillor Mike Evemy - 2:23:07
Thank you, Chair. The papers in front of you are a response to a call from our Democratic
and Electoral Services team to our Town and Parish Councils as to whether they wish to
any changes to their democratic arrangements or to their boundaries.
So this is essentially what we're being asked to do this afternoon, is to agree to consult
on all of the things that they come back with.
At this point, we're not making any judgments about them, and indeed in some cases they
may be controversial.
I know that there is at least one that is potentially controversial, but we as a council
are just being asked to essentially empower our officers to go out and consult on these
changes.
I just wanted to highlight one thing, which when I was diligently reading my papers just
a couple of days ago, I spotted that on page 81, that's Annex B, there are a couple of
roads that are missing from the list where it says
Watermore Ward and Siddington.
Obviously I'm the ward member there,
so I know what the roads are.
So it should add the green and Siddington Road.
Siddington Road is in both Watermore Ward and in Siddington
and certainly rural ward.
And that does make some change to the numbers of properties
for those of you who are keen to know.
It increases the proposal changes from 163 to 253,
which reduce the number of, and overall,
the number of properties in Siddington
would reduce from 731 to 478.
Not that particular change, that's the overall impact
of those changes.
And would increase the number in properties
in Syrins, Cessna, Watermore from 1 ,580 to 1 ,800.
So there's a paragraph in the report I think where that's referred to.
So it would be moving a total of 253 properties would move from Sidington to Cirencester,
reducing Sidington from 731 properties to 478.
Cirencester, Baltimore would increase from 1 ,580 properties to 1 ,833.
So that's one of the changes that potentially we will be consulting on.
You can see the list of them in the annexes. So as well as boundary changes
in a couple of cases there are also requests from town and parish councils
to increase the number of their members of their council and there is also a
request to create wards for Tepary town council. So I think all the
is in there at this stage we're just agreeing that we should consult and it
should come back to us in March for us to make decisions when we have all the
consultation responses back. Thank you.
Councillor Mark Harris - 2:26:21
Thank you very much Councillor Eveling. Any questions for clarification on that?
Councillor Bridges go for it. If we're mentioning roads to the missing...
Please, Councillor Brinney. If we're mentioning Roadster missing, can I also mention that
Councillor Nick Bridges - 2:26:38
Bridge Close, this is on page 82 with the proposed switch from Syrinset to
Sittington. We have Bridge Close, Nursery Close, Nursery Road, Melmore Gardens and
also if you're going to mention Tesco's, Aldi and McDonald's you should really
include Premier Inn and possibly also home bargains.
Thank you for that clarification.
Councillor Mark Harris - 2:27:05
It was a question for clarity but I don't know if Mike you want to respond to that.
I can't comment on this.
Sarah is in the room, Sarah Dolby, our elections manager is in the room, who is leading on
this from an office perspective.
I'm sure she will be able to tell us that she can pick up the points.
Councillor Mike Evemy - 2:27:25
We are clear I think on the geography it may have been that the roads that
Councillor Bridges mentioned have been inadvertently missed off as I spotted
the two in my ward and he's just spotted a few in his ward.
Councillor Mark Harris - 2:27:40
So would you like to clarify that if you can at this stage. Thank you. I will
Public Speaker - 2:27:48
need to double cheque it. I don't believe Premier Inn is in it because it's the
other side of the road of the proposed amendment. The other ones that you've
mentioned I would need to cheque but Melmore Gardens I believe is in
Syrinsester already but I would have to double cheque and confirm that for you.
No but in in the report it's the Watermore, what's coming from
Siddington into Watermore is proposed and then there's the other proposal is
going from Baltimore into Siddington.
So, but perhaps I can come back to you and we can just do a
double cheque before we do anything out to the public
in consultation.
Thanks, Dara, that's great.
Councillor Mark Harris - 2:28:28
Have we got any other questions for clarity while we're here?
No? Good, okay.
Councillor Fowles, would you like to reserve your right to speak
or say your piece now?
Before she goes, I think we'd...
Councillor David Fowles - 2:28:41
It's an ideal opportunity since Mike covered most of the things I was going to say, to
thank Sarah and her department for the job they continue to do on making sure we're properly
represented and the way you handle elections as well. So it's our opportunity to thank
you and your team for a job well done. The reason I was delighted to second it is I think
in the context of what's going on out in the Cotswolds and the pressure that we're going
to be under at parish council level, it's great to see a number of parishes wanting
to increase the number of councillors.
Down amply my former home and former village and a ward I used to represent and indeed
Southrop and in the context of some of the issues that have been confronting Angela in
Morton and Chipping Camden.
It's great to see people wanting to queue up
to represent those people at that level.
So that was the point I wanted to make.
And as Mike has already said, it's a timetable.
We're now looking forward to getting feedback
from the public consultation phase.
So I commend the report to you
and I hope that it'll be a straightforward vote.
And thanks again to you, sir.
Thank you, Councillor Fowles, I appreciate that.
Councillor Mark Harris - 2:29:54
Has anybody got, would anybody like to debate this?
Thrash it out.
No? Okay. Councillor Egme, would you like to sum up?
Councillor Mike Evemy - 2:30:06
I don't think there's anything to add, Chair.
Councillor Mark Harris - 2:30:13
Fantastic. Okay, so the recommendation is to approve and adopt the terms of reference and draught proposals for consultation for the community governance review. Let's go to the vote.
26, 27, 28, one more.
29, good.
Thank you very much, Kiera.
So that's 29, so that's approved.

12 Programme of Meetings for 2026/2027

Item 12, and historically this can go on a bit,
but I'm not sure whether it will,
is the programme of meetings.
Who's speaking to this, Councillor Ebony?
Just, oh, he's gonna propose it as...
Councillor Mike Evemy - 2:31:11
Thank you, Chair, I'll try not to talk
for very long on this.
So essentially what we've done is roll forward
the current schedule into 26, 27.
You'll recall when we discussed this last year,
we've reduced slightly the frequency of cabinets
so that now meets nine times a year.
And we've lined up overview and scrutiny
to meet the core cabinets.
So members there can pre scrutinise papers
and ask questions to cabinet members and senior officers
about the decisions that they're about to take at cabinet.
I think that's been really successful
and we are continuing that.
We essentially are suggesting
we don't debate meeting times.
Hopefully today we're rolling those forward.
I just note that we obviously our democratic services team
have tried to where they can accommodate party conference dates.
I do know there is a clash, unfortunately, for Conservative members who are on the Audit
and Governance Committee.
And we haven't got the dates for the Green Conference, but Council Turner might be able
to tell us what those are.
And there is actually a missing date for the Liberal Democrat Conference, which I'm sure
some of us on this side of the chamber may attend.
But that is actually, we have two a year, don't know where, we're a glance for punishment
in the Lib Dems.
We have two conferences a year and the second one the main one is in Brighton in September
It's the 19th to the 22nd of September. So it doesn't clash. We have a council on the 23rd
So we will all be back for the council on the 23rd of September
2026 so I think the other thing I think to note is in the recommendations
We are delegating authority to the monitoring officer develop director of governance and development
in consultation with group leaders to make any changes
in the event of we make any changes to the council committee structure and to delegate to
head of Democratic and electoral services
To set the meeting dates for the performance and appointments committee
Should we need to meet the member training and briefing sessions and any working groups
and agree that not basically delete in recommendation for
we're not proposing any alternatives so delete the bit in the commas so it says
agree that meeting start times will be rolled forwards from 25 26 thank you
Councillor Mark Harris - 2:33:50
chair thank you very much Mike okay any questions for clarity on that
Councillor Coleman Thank You chair I'm looking at October at the bottom of the
block it says LS for licencing or and I haven't yet found what pork is it's
obviously something very obvious anybody help council comment on that that's an
error in the paperwork so please disregard disregard the error in the
paperwork yeah good spark out of Coleman ever the pedant are there any any of
more any other questions for clarity no good okay I'm seeking a seconder I did
have council late and I can't remember who's gonna second it this time can't
spring but go for it any any any debaters comes to fowls surprise I really
Councillor David Fowles - 2:34:51
wanted to string this one out and talk about but actually what I what I really
what to do is to say on behalf of one of our newest members here, Councillor Paul Wilson,
how lovely it is to have you and your family here. Irrespective of the meeting being at
two o 'clock, I think it's wonderful that you were able to come to meetings like overview
and scrutiny and here with your young family and congratulations. Well done.
Okay, that changed anybody's mind
Councillor Mark Harris - 2:35:21
Good point council powers
Okay
Okay, okay councillor have me do you want to sum up let's go straight to the vote I'm not gonna read this resolution
It's very long. You've got it in your papers if you're online you can read it online as well
But do we want the, yeah, go for it.
Councillor Mark Harris - 2:35:54
Oh yeah.
20, 28, 29.
Thank you very much, members.
That's, we're happy with the programme meetings.
Golly, when you think how long they used to be, it's a lot of work.
to last in the morning, in the evening.
Okay, now the big one.
I feel a little bit like, you know,
it's kind of like the big item on the boxing bill,
you know, the one you've been waiting for,
been through all the lightweight stuff
and that's the heavyweight championship of the world.
Okay, I will read this.
So in accordance with Section 33, which is item 13, local government reorganisation,
in accordance with Section 33 of the Localism Act 2011 and Council's Code of Conduct,
members who are also elected to Gloucestershire County Council or any town or parish, double -hatted
members, may participate in the debate on matters relating to local government reorganisation
proposals, provided that they approach the discussion with an open mind.
The monitoring officer has advised that prior expression of a view on LGR proposals does
not automatically preclude participation subject to the member remaining open to persuasion
during the meeting.
Furthermore, members who have previously declared their membership of another local authority
in their register of interest are not required to repeat this declaration at the full council
meeting.
So, the purpose of this report is to note the two proposals for local government reorganisation
in Gloucestershire that have been developed collaboratively
with all seven Gloucestershire councils for consideration
by the overview and scrutiny committee on the 17th
of November, council on the 26th, and cabinet on the 26th
to follow this meeting.
So I'm going to ask Councillor Evermy
to propose the resolution to the council.
Thank you, Chair.
Councillor Mike Evemy - 2:37:58
I'm going to hopefully introduce the report
and then propose a resolution.
Hence why you've given me an extra five minutes.
So I'll try and introduce the report in five minutes and propose the resolution in the second five minutes
So as members will be aware the government announced towards the end of last year
that
They were looking for
Essentially unitary councils across the whole of England. So the 21 areas that
Are currently have a County Council and district borough and City Council sitting underneath them including Gloucestershire
which were essentially told when that white paper came out
that their current arrangements weren't to be pursued,
weren't to continue, and that we needed to look at
arrangements for unitary councils.
So I'm really pleased to say,
and obviously I became leader in May,
at the same time I think, it was on the same day,
that leader, that Councillor Spivey became leader
of Gloucestershire County Council.
And on behalf of this council,
I am together with led by our interim chief executive
since she joined us in July.
We have led discussions on behalf of this council
with the other six leaders in Gloucestershire.
That's the other five leaders at our level
and Lisa and her team at the County Council.
And I think it's fair to say that we have had a very collaborative approach.
Lisa has led that from the front very ably.
And despite the differences between the different councils, there have been amicable discussions,
even concessions on some of the points, particularly the options analysis, which has contained
in both of the papers before you this afternoon,
the single unitary option, one UA,
it's the jargon we probably used to get that quarter,
and the two unitary option we're considering,
which is the east -west option.
So we have collaboratively and our officers work collectively
on the two 300 -odd page long documents
that are appendices to the reports to council.
And those are essentially the two proposals which we and our officers believe are viable
and we are for us to consider this afternoon which if any of those proposals to agree.

13 Local Government Reorganisation Proposal - Full Proposal for Local Government reorganisation (LGR) in Gloucestershire

So I think it's been a long process.
A timeline is such that we had the letter from the Minister back in February was sent
to Joe as the leader at the time.
And yeah, essentially there's been work going on since then
to get us to the point of this afternoon's meeting.
We are the last of the seven principal authorities
to make our decision.
And we will be formally making the decision as a cabinet
after we've had this debate this afternoon.
So if you want to stay around and watch us,
you're not on the cabinet,
you're very, very welcome to do that.
you might want to go to the pub instead and watch it online from the pub or and
I hope to join some of you very soon after that but seriously this is a big
decision as the chair said about whether we and how local government is organised
in Gloucestershire but and when I come on to the resolution I'll make that
clear that this isn't our decision this is a ministerial decision the government
have decided that they want to get rid of county councils and districts and
boroughs and create unitary authorities and the government ultimately will
decide based on the proposals put forward to them which of those will be
implemented. So what we're here to do this afternoon is to look at you know
some of you have had a chance to have a look at those great big long documents
And I thank the members of the overview and scrutiny committee for their consideration.
And I think that member councillor Slater is saying, you know, it was a few hours, he won't
get back reading those, but he told us that at the ONS committee.
But they are very important documents because they will be sent to the government.
So what we know so far of the six councils that have made a decision on this, we have
Three councils that have expressed a preference for the single unitary council for Gloucestershire
That's the County Council Chigsbury Borough Council the Stroud District Council
We have one council that has expressed a preference for the two unitary east -west proposal. That's in front of us today
That's Cheltenham Borough Council
And we have one council that has expressed a preference for the greater Gloucestershire Gloucester City and Greater Gloucestershire proposal
which is Gloucester City Council, and we have one council which has indicated
that it doesn't have a preference and it would rather local government
reorganisation wasn't happening. And that is the Forest of Dean. I have a lot of sympathy for the
fact that unnecessarily maybe others do about the fact that yeah it may not be
happening but I think turning to the the resolution which hopefully everybody has
cited that in front of them.
I think the key point in the start of that resolution
is recognising what I've just said.
It's the government decision.
We've done an awful lot of work collectively
across Gloucestershire.
And I think we're an exemplar in that.
We might hear a little bit from Councillor Spivey on that.
And that ultimately, a government minister
is going to make the decision.
It's been a journey for some of us.
And I know members opposite have had a political view
and a party view probably since earlier on this year
and indeed campaigned on that in the local elections,
not particularly successfully until they'll admit.
But they did and they had a view in favour
of a single unitary option.
I think probably some of us on this side
of the chamber had an instinctive feeling
that a single unitary councillor
for Gloucestershire might be too big.
and we were worried about the size of the unitary
and how that might reflect on how we represent
our communities here in the Cotswolds.
But I think what we've done very successfully
in this chamber is not prejudged anything.
We've looked at it, we've gone through the process.
And I think those of us who've been in that process
and have looked at it have gradually come to the conclusion,
as we say in the resolution there,
that actually on balance the single unitary council for Gloucestershire
would provide a stronger and less disruptive basis for the delivery of
services and a more robust and resilient financial position than new unitary
councils for the east and west of the county. Having said that I think it's
important and the resolution does this to say that both the proposals are
viable and could be implemented because ultimately as I said the government will
side so they could choose one either of these options indeed they could choose
the gloss greater Gloucester option I think that's very unlikely but you know
it is clear that these options need to be as good as they could be because we
could be implementing them or our successes in the new council could be
implementing them and there are strengths to each of the options so in
no way am I standing here saying you know the two unitary option is a bad
thing we shouldn't do it I'm not saying that what I'm saying is that I think on
balance and the resolution says that the single unitary option for Gloucestershire
is I think the option this council should support and therefore I'm asking
the council in the resolution as I mentioned it's a cabinet decision but
I'm asking the council to ask the cabinet to propose that in to in
response to the minister's invitation so there's a joint letter going from six of
the seven councils before the deadline of midnight or one minute to midnight on
Friday night that will be signed by six of us,
including Lisa and myself, all of the councils,
apart from Gloucester City, which is doing its own letter,
to say which of the options that we prefer.
And also to ask me to send a letter,
which I would like to send, and I know,
I think Councillor Spivey might talk about,
she might be sending a letter, and others are,
to explain the decision that we're taking here.
So taking on board what I'm gonna hear
in the debate this afternoon,
and put that into a letter that goes alongside the submission
that we put in to government.
And then finally, really, just to say that the work doesn't
stop now, the work just goes on to the next phase.
So after the submission on Friday, if it goes in on Friday,
there's a lot of work that we are already looking at together
with our fellow leaders and chief execs about what needs
to happen next, and really it's just asking us as the cabinet
and the offices to continue to work on that.
Because we believe what we understand
is that government will assess the viability
of the options put forward,
decide which of them is viable,
and then go to public consultation
between January and April next year,
and then they will make their decision in the summer.
So there's a lot of work we can do now
between now and then to do that.
So I very much commend the resolution.
I think Councillor Stowe is going to second it so hopefully members across the chamber
will be able to support this. Thank you, Chair.
Thank you, Mike. Do we have any questions? Before we go to Councillor Stowe, do we have
Councillor Mark Harris - 2:48:01
any questions for clarity? Councillor Fowls.
Councillor David Fowles - 2:48:06
In the event that you get unanimous support for your proposal, will you reflect that in
the letter so that it's very clear. Hopefully cabinet will support the council's recommendation
but I'd just like to feel that what your response to that would be, Councillor Ebony.
Councillor Mike Evemy - 2:48:29
Absolutely. Yeah, I think if there is a very strong feeling in favour of what I've proposed,
indeed if it is every member present who votes for that, I will reflect that in the letter
to the Minister, because I think it shows that we have considered it very carefully
and we are of, if we do get to that point, that we are of one mind that this is the better
option for people in the Cotswolds.
Councillor Mark Harris - 2:48:55
I think that's the first item on the council therefore resolves.
Councillor Jenkins.
Thank you, Chair.
Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 2:49:06
It's only really in case anybody's watching
that there's some clarity, that we get some clarity
on what is intended and meant by the fact that on page 94,
there is a statement that there's a recommendation
that the overview and scrutiny committee
and council consider the following two proposals
for local government reorganisation in Gloucestershire and make any recommendations they wish to
cabinet for their decision. And this might imply to some people that following this meeting
we would be recommending that overview and scrutiny should meet in order to decide what
to go forward. I don't think that's the intention. It may just be worth ensuring that there is
clarity for anyone who's observing.
Councillor Mark Harris - 2:49:57
Okay, um councillor me if you want to clarify that for yeah, so thank you
Angus
Councillor Mike Evemy - 2:50:02
It's because there are the same report has gone to O &S to Council this afternoon and to cabinet
So the resolution that I moved I think I've put I'll formally move it now, but didn't at the end of my speech essentially
replaces
recommendation for the recommendation one
essentially this is the resolution of cabinet to go forward to sorry of the
council to go forward to the cabinet so it's the answer to recommendation one
and O &S has already met and Gina or yourself and members may want to say
something in the debate which we might want to take on board before we decide
Councillor Mark Harris - 2:50:48
how to vote. Councillor Bloomfield. Yes thank you chair all I want to do is make further
Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:50:51
clarification from overview and scrutiny's point of view is that we
dis -applied the call -in and that is because there isn't time because of just
the framework between overview and scrutiny, this full council, the cabinet
and we've got to make the recommendation and send it into government so I'd just
say that overview and scrutiny in the circumstances and thought it was highly
unlikely that a call -in would be required so we have had it dis -applied.
Thank you. Thank you for the clarification there. I'm going to go to
Councillor Mark Harris - 2:51:18
Councillor Stone now for, oh sorry, do you have somebody else who's...
Go for it.
It's a clarification is it?
Councillor Mark Harris - 2:51:29
Well just yes I was hoping to find what the net reduction in the number of
councillors will be in this trans... abolition of two districts.
That's not a clarification because it wasn't a point raised by Councillor Efremi that is confused.
Councillor Stone, it's in the report. There's only eight, six hundred pages so you should get to it.
I'm raising page by page.
Yes.
Yes, thank you, Chair.
Councillor Tom Stowe - 2:51:52
And I'm pleased to second this resolution,
which as Councillor Evony has confirmed,
supersedes the recommendations in the original report.
Now it can be quite daunting when presented
with 600 plus pages of content to sift through,
even when presented with the clear,
concise options appraisal,
which condenses everything into around 30 pages.
Now, a few days ago,
I did wonder where our discussions this afternoon would lead
and with some of the Cotswolds most eloquent orators in attendance, how long would we be here?
Therefore I was delighted when I was asked to second this resolution.
It does a great job in focusing our minds as members on what the job in hand is for us today,
how we got here and why, and what the next steps will be and what challenges we will lay ahead,
and all concentrated into one A4 sheet. I want to begin by acknowledging the significant amount
work that has already been undertaken across all councils in Gloucestershire.
Members and officers have contributed significant time, energy and finances to ensuring that all
available options have been thoroughly explored, tested and given due consideration with a goal
of securing the best possible future for local government and ultimately the citizens of the
county. Whatever one's view of the two proposals that Stirling work deserves our recognition.
It is important to remind ourselves that the decision to implement local government reorganisation,
although it had been explored in the past, was not initiated within the county.
Trying to pretend this isn't going to happen and hope that it goes away, as they seem to
have done at the Forest of Dean, is not an option.
We need to play our part and make our voices heard in this process.
We have a collective responsibility to respond constructively and to present a clear and
considered view to government who will ultimately determine Gloucestershire's
future local government arrangements. This report makes clear that both the
single unitary and the East -West options are to varying degrees credible. The
comprehensive evaluation undertaken has been extremely valuable. It shows that
when we consider key factors such as long -term resilience, financial
viability and sustainability and the ability to deliver services effectively
across the whole of the county, the case for a single unitary council is clearly stronger.
Indeed, even some of the original architects of the East -West concept have recognised this
because of the detailed analysis carried out.
The next steps and the ultimate decision on the future of this council and the local government
in the county will be made by government and until we know what that decision is, the process
is out of our hands.
Despite the enormous effort which has already gone into this, as Mike has just alluded to,
this is just the end of the beginning of the process.
There is going to be a huge amount of work, upheaval and disruption on the horizon.
And it's our job to ensure that we work towards what is best for all citizens of the District and wider County.
And also ensure crucially that our staff are well prepared
and given the best opportunities to make the most of the changes which lay ahead.
By supporting this resolution, we are sending a clear and reasoned message to government,
backed by discussions at ONS, Cabinet and this Council,
about what we believe will best serve our residents. I therefore second this
resolution and commend it to council. Thank you. Thank you very much
Councillor Mark Harris - 2:55:12
Councillor Stowe. Now before we go to debate, as we go into it, what
I'd like to ask is, has anybody got a view contrary to the resolution here that
they'd like to pose now? Because I know that a lot of people have
supported this, but I'd like to know if there's somebody here, if there's anybody here who
thinks very, very firmly wedded to the East -West or even a different view altogether.
The doughnut.
The doughnut.
It's not a doughnut as the leader there said.
You've got a different view, David Fowles?
I just wanted to make an observation.
Do stand up, please.
Councillor David Fowles - 2:55:59
As has already been said by the leader, we as, well it wasn't actually us on Cotswold
District Council, it was the County Council campaign where we'd already done quite a lot
of work behind the scenes at County and that's why we majored on it during the County Council
elections and the response we got on the doorstep, although there were people who didn't know
what the hell we were talking about.
The people that we did talk to, once the argument had been put
to them, they were really clear.
And they said, yeah, seems like a no -brainer.
It's the single.
And we'll pass that back for what it's worth.
The way this is worded, and we've obviously been wedded to
the single unitary, and our leader has seconded it, but I
still feel that it's on balance.
we prefer option in the single unitary and I just wonder really whether that's
strong enough to get the message across to government that it is the single so
when I keep on rereading it I keep on thinking that it's an on balance decision.
Councillor Mark Harris - 2:57:03
I'm going to interrupt you there. That's just my view.
No, absolutely, but I'm going to because it says the council therefore
resolve to request that the cabinet proposes the single unitary council for
Gloucestershire in response to ministers invitation. It doesn't say on balance. It
says that that's categorically what letter is going to go to the but what
I'm interested very just initially is to hear if anybody's got any contrary views
to this strong contrary views Councillor Coleman. I used to think this was a
Councillor Patrick Coleman - 2:57:34
humorous answer but having heard the comment but having heard the position
of the Forest of Dean and read about it I genuinely think it's a serious option for
them if they really don't want to be part of this to get themselves
transferred into Wales, this has had a proven positive effect admittedly taking centuries
rather than years, on Mumfordshire, which is one of the most prosperous parts of Wales
with a fantastic transport network. Most people perhaps don't know that council tax was set
up with one band lower in Wales. You pay less, you get more and of course you could always
tell when you drove it over the border into Wales because the roads got good. I think
if they really don't like Gloucestershire as a one Gloucestershire they should ring
up probably the first Minister of Wales in the first place say would you mind if
we added to your own base? Thank you Councillor Coleman that's not what I
Councillor Mark Harris - 2:58:21
expected but it's what I got. Okay I'm gonna I'm gonna go open this up I'm
gonna allow 20 minutes if people want to talk about it and say and support their
views not 20 minutes each obviously so I'm gonna go with Councillor Hodgkinson
and then Councillor Neill, then Councillor Harris,
and then Councillor Jenkins.
And then Councillor McKeown.
Thank you very much.
Yeah.
So I really do want to speak in favour of this resolution.
Councillor Paul Hodgkinson - 2:58:54
And I guess, you know, and some of my colleagues
in another place have heard this,
but I have been on a bit of a journey on this issue anyway.
I think perhaps like many of us, alluding
to what someone has just said, that an east -west split was
my original thought, because I felt
I think it was going to be closer to people,
but I've come on a journey.
Now, I can't resist talking about 1974.
Other people have heard this before.
Sorry, I've got to say it.
Because 1974 was the last time
that the local government was reorganised.
But in my memory, and I was at primary school at the time,
in my memory, what was on the TV was
Ted Heath battling it out with Harold Wilson
and someone called Jeremy Thorpe.
We won't talk about that.
And the number one best selling single of the year
Tiger Feet by Mudd, what a brilliant song that was, first record I ever bought.
And the biggest TV show at the time was Bruce Forsyth's Generation Game.
Some people remember that, come on, you do, you absolutely do.
Some people.
But of course, the generation thing is key because this is a once in a generation sort
of decision, isn't it really?
And the sad thing is we won't decide, it will be the government that decides and then has
a consultation, but effectively they will have made their mind up.
And for me, you know, I'd rather we weren't doing this, but the fact we are suggests to
me that there has to be a single Gloucester Shride unitary as the better option.
Because, and this is really relates to some of my GCC role, is, you know, some of the
services I'm responsible for at county level really would be very difficult to split up.
Public health, you know, you have a director of public health, trading standards, coroner
service and most importantly the fire and rescue service.
We've already heard from the government that actually the
fire and rescue service in Gloucestershire could
not be split.
It is very small already.
It's one of the smallest in the country.
So you could not split it.
So where would it go if there was an East and West or the
doughnut, the dreaded doughnut?
Where would it go?
It couldn't now go to a police and crime commissioner because
that won't exist anymore.
Maybe it would fit with the police service.
I don't know.
So you'd have a whole conundrum there.
But I think the most important thing is if we do end up with a Gloucestershire wide unitary,
that we must decentralise and devolve as much as possible. And that's my major concern about it,
that it will be the opposite. So we have to devolve power downwards as much as possible
to communities, to town councils, to parish councils who are able to take those things on.
And you know, representing many parish councils, I know that some of them
would be full of fear around those things and concern about how they would deal with it.
Whereas others may lock it up.
And so therefore we have to kind of see if they would be capable of taking certain things on because that's really key.
We certainly shouldn't be taking power away from them.
So I think in summary, let's hope the government once they hear from us
makes the right decision for the whole of Gloucestershire and that power is devolved as much as possible to local communities.
Councillor Mark Harris - 3:02:00
Thank you very much Paul. Right colleagues I've got 10 people to speak and there
have been debates in the past where we spent about an hour and a bit agreeing
with each other and that's good but can we keep it nice and tight so we're not
going over the same trodden ground. Next I've got Dylis, Councillor Neill. Yes thank
Councillor Dilys Neill - 3:02:24
you I'm going to agree largely with what Councillor Hodgkinson said about the
importance of engagements with our town and parish councils, the importance of building
them up. I was really pleased to see that under implementation, the first heading is
formal consultation on neighbourhood partnerships. I think that's the thing that could be the
strength of this rather than its weakness. Because we will be losing an awful lot of
elected members. We will be going down to about a third of the number of elected members,
which was potentially not a very democratic appearing thing.
And it's really crucial that our local people
in our town and parish councils sort of step up to the mark
to fill any potential gaps there.
And the other thing I wanted to say was that
I'm the representative on the health of the
scrutiny committee from this council,
which is a great thing to do, but we,
we scrutinise the health provision in the whole of Gloucestershire so if we
were split into two into two east and west there would be two committees
scrutinising the single health authority so that that would add to the weight in
my opinion with all the other arguments in favour of the single unitary authority
Councillor Mark Harris - 3:03:44
thank you. Thank you council Neill and thank you for keeping it tight and concise
Councillor Joe Harris, tight and concise, please.
Well, I only had three minutes of cheese,
Councillor Joe Harris - 3:03:52
and now I've got five, so, you know,
I'm going to be thrilled.
I think the first thing to say is that this whole process
is a total sham.
It really, really is.
And I'll tell you why.
In the Labour Party's manifesto at the last general election,
which absolutely granted they got a huge thumping
majority for, there was a brilliant section
on devolution.
And while it probably wouldn't be the type of devolution
that I chose, it set out very clearly their approach
to mayoral authorities and the new combined authorities.
Every year I was gonna get a mayor, that was very clear.
What it didn't mention, however, at all,
was local government reorganisation.
It didn't mention it once.
So I think Labour's mandate for this
is pretty shaky in the first place.
And while I wouldn't go as far as the Forest of Dean
in saying we don't want to engage in this process
and we think it's all a load of rubbish,
I do sympathise with the arguments that they put.
Let's be very clear,
district councils have been set up to fail
over the last 15 or 20 years.
A funding crisis, which has been, let's be honest,
coordinated, is the root of our problems.
The two -tier system, while on the face of it,
can look a bit complicated, and yes,
it is not always as easy as possible
to explain to local residents.
The two -tier setup worked well for a number of years.
You had the County Council delivering strategic services
at scale, like some of the arguments we've heard about
for one unitary authority, and the District Councils,
in particular, shaped areas like placemaking,
non -statutory services that we all rely on.
My big fear as a result of local government reorganisation
is being realised elsewhere.
Our colleagues in Somerset went through
local government reorganisation
and the previous conservative government decided
that it would be one big unitary authority.
Well, if we look at that example,
it is a pretty sobering state of affairs.
We have non -statutory services either being cut to the bone
or where local communities are willing,
transferred to town and parish councils.
That's something we should absolutely look at here.
But the biggest tragedy, I think, is that they have created a council which, from the
offset, has been financially unsustainable because of this funding crisis that I've spoken
about.
And the key point is they are now having to make huge cuts in order to make ends meet.
And it's the non -statutory services, isn't it, that are being cut to the bone at the
– in order to fund things like highways, adult social care, and so on.
And I have to say, this whole process, the only people who have been rubbing their hands
with glee are not the hard -pressed council officers.
They're not dedicated town district and county councillors across the country.
They are the big consultants who are raking in millions and millions of pounds from local
government.
And on that funding point, it's convenient, isn't it, that while the government have given
us a little bit of money to help contribute towards some of the work of
this, actually we're having to pay a lot of the costs out of our core budgets
which we didn't plan for. So as a result of this process we are spending less
money on roads, on social care, on planning, on picking up the bins. I think
it's quite unacceptable. So colleagues, I think the key point is it doesn't matter
what we decide today. As we've seen with local government reorganisation under
the previous government and indeed under this government it will be a government
minister and their advisors who decide what will happen. In my experience and
talking to colleagues at the LGA MPs have an awfully big role in lobbying
ministers when it comes to issues like this. It's why you saw one single unitary
authority in Somerset, it's why in Cumbria where the local Tory MPs at the
time favoured two unitary authorities they ended up with two. So actually this
whole process comes down to political convenience rather than conviction.
We've got our officers doing an awful lot of work on this and my worry is that
brilliant work that they are doing along with our council leaders and everybody
else is basically pointless because the government know what they're going to
decide already. Actually what I'd say to the government is if you're absolutely
certain that unitaries are the best way just impose them. We don't need to go
through a sham process costing local taxpayers hundreds of millions of pounds.
We could have done that anyway.
So I'm going to vote for one this evening.
I do have my reservations about one.
Actually, I think both could work.
I think two could work really well.
You probably retain that local link,
but ultimately the facts don't lie.
We have a children's services that has been brought back
on its feet here in Gloucestershire.
We've got adult social care that needs a bit of improvement,
but we are getting there.
And to cut those up doesn't seem like the right thing to do,
even if my first preference would have been for two.
Thank you.
Thank you, Joe. I'll come to Angus in a second.
Councillor Mark Harris - 3:08:59
I was in Australia visiting Bathurst and I spoke to the general manager there and I said,
how did you get involved in this job? And he said, well, I got a phone call saying we're amalgamating
a load of councils into one big council, which Bathurst Regional Council.
And he said to the person at the user, when does that happen? He said, oh, it's happening tomorrow.
So they made the decision, it's happening tomorrow,
and fell into place.
So yeah, to Joe's point there.
Okay, we've got Angus next.
Excuse me.
Thank you, Chair.
Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 3:09:33
I don't want to rise and speak on my own behalf so much
as to say that on behalf of overview and scrutiny,
we're not all there.
And certain points were raised, they are in line
with what we've heard and will be hearing.
Firstly, that when it comes to the analysis on the financial figures and the net comparisons,
there will be variations in reality and the level of dependency that these figures, a
lot of work was done in trying to arrive at resilient figures that could be dependable,
but at the end of the day, circumstances will turn up and there will no doubt be variation.
That's one point to be aware of.
The second point is what we've been hearing.
The government imposed this, but we are paying for it.
And that is costing us something,
and that was an important feature
in the overview of the scrutiny.
And thirdly, the importance of neighbourhoods,
which has also been raised.
So I only wanted to emphasise that from ONS,
we saw those things as important as well.
There were other things, but I want to be brief.
Thank you very much, I appreciate it.
Councillor Mark Harris - 3:10:42
And we're going to go, Councillor McEwen.
Councillor Mike McKeown - 3:10:53
Mike, I do love a bit of data as you probably know, so just joking aside, that report was
excellent.
So thank you very much, Jane.
I know officers have done a huge amount of work to give us the real hard data to let
us decide.
So me and my AI assistants have enjoyed consuming that data and it has enlightened us a lot.
The obvious stuff is financially it is much, much stronger.
it saves millions of pounds which hopefully lets us deliver much better services and we all know
local government is under a lot of stress so that's particularly is important but maybe from a more
personal perspective you know I've seen some of the benefits of working together so myself and
other other members across different councils and officers work together already on climate
leadership Gloucestershire and we achieve a lot together by working collaboratively so I think
proven model together is real and it's here now. I think on my other
portfolios is digital I think that's going to be much stronger as a combined
thing and there is huge change coming. AI for example is going to change
the way we deliver local government services, that's a huge advantage, it's going
to impact everybody's lives. We will be doing a much better job I think together
on that scale rather than ripping apart that services. Let's be honest
most of that's going to be the Gloucestershire part of the service.
But perhaps most importantly is kind of the human side of it.
So I think, you know, when I looked at that report and heard from some of my colleagues
who are now in GCC, the two that stood out to me was social care adult and children.
You know, we all know that those are stressed services around the country.
And we've also seen from firsthand on the news what happens when they go wrong.
people really get hurt.
It's not the bins are a bit late being collected
or you're planning applications slightly late.
Pretty horrible things can happen.
And I would feel that it's incumbent on us
to make a decision, or not really a decision,
a recommendation that will help people keep safe
as well as deliver financial savings.
But the keeping people safe and well,
you've heard that from Paul on the fire services.
I just think it adds up better.
I'm sure whatever happens,
whatever the government ultimately decides will together make it make it
work but I do think that's the better option of the two. Thank you Mike. Okay
Councillor Mark Harris - 3:13:24
Councillor Mike McKeown - 3:13:26
Councillor Gina Blomefield - 3:13:29
Gina, Council Bloomfield. Yes thank you chair. What I really wanted to say was
the whatever government decides finally I personally I'm for the unitary but
what I think is very important is the role that Ovi and scrutiny is going to
having. We're going to be discussing this on the 1st of December and it's doing
that transition and making sure that this council, CDC, for whatever we are
going to migrate into, that we are in the best position financially but also as
Councillor Neill has mentioned for our town and parish councils who may feel
rather remote from this sort of thing for all our residents and for just
making sure that all the people employed at CDC and everybody involved is carried
forward so we're hoping and I think our CEO has agreed that we'll get quarterly
reports into O &S so that we can keep up to date with what's happening and
enable that to happen as well as possible. Whatever unitary is finally
decided by this government I hope it will be a single one. Thank you. Thank you
Councillor Mark Harris - 3:14:30
Gina. Right now I've got Claire and I can't remember whether it was Councillor Turner or
Councillor Clare Turner - 3:14:37
Councillor... it was Councillor Turner sorry. Thank you. I have some sympathy with
colleagues in the forest on their position. I do have reservations about this whole process
as well. I will keep it brief because my points have been covered to some extent already.
Dyliss raised the point about the number of councillors being decreased from 295 to 110.
That is going to make it harder for residents to have their voices heard and to have their
issues championed by their elected representatives. That is particularly an issue I think for
large rural divisions, which many of us serve those residents now.
So I think that's a point I just wanted to make.
But given where we are and that we do have to make a decision,
we obviously have to look at the evidence that's provided.
And I agree that many of our families in Gloucestershire who are struggling to get access to the services they desperately want
would probably agree with Joe that the money could have been spent in better ways other
than on consultants. However, I would like to acknowledge the huge amount of work that
went into that report that we were given and it has enabled councillors to really use the
best information available to weigh up the alternatives. I think, as others have said,
the two unitary splits, East -West, in particular, that weaker financial position that the West
would find themselves in would really impact our most vulnerable residents.
So where services get cut the most vulnerable residents would be impacted
and so I will be supporting the resolution put forward.
Councillor Mark Harris - 3:16:17
Thank you Councillor Turner. Right we've got Councillor Dale, Tony Dale.
Thank you.
Councillor Tony Dale - 3:16:25
Thank you chair.
It does make me think I really should stop trying to speak always on the last item on
the council chamber agenda.
Nonetheless, thank you members for bearing with me just for the next couple of minutes.
This is really important.
So the reason I'm standing is because the last time I stood it was our local strategic
plan.
This is the other thing that's going to make a real difference to our council, but more
importantly to our residents.
We now number nearly 100 ,000 across the Cotswolds.
We do our best to represent them, every single one of us of any political persuasion.
And if you ask me for a single reason why in the end I have thought about both an East
and West and a unitary authority, the single reason for me is because what the people would
understand best. What will serve their thinking processes and their actions best is a single
unitary Gloucestershire authority. Never was it more roundly round home to me. This might
keep you coming, Laura. Was when I had to go and present to the local Mother's Union
meeting of all and they wanted me to tell them what a district Councillor did. And I
think of and explain that as their local district Councillor, their ward Councillor,
I basically represented them as regards bins, bogs, parking and planning. I mean
they all laughed as you do but of course that's the reality of it. I mean it's
ludicrous in my mind that we also look after leisure centres. We don't have
really the budgets to do it or to do it very well at all. That's obvious as
what's happening in Somerset and we are if we're not careful we will find
ourselves with that problem so we have to work really hard to make our leisure
provision as effective and green as we can over the last three years. It is a
privilege to be able to stand and speak in a chamber where we have not one but
two leaders of Gloucestershire councils in this chamber. If we can't get it right
no one can. So please if I'm if there's one thing I've been passionate about
over the years in this chamber. It's that I'm passionate for our residents, 100 ,000
residents, and I'm passionate next about our businesses because remember they
employ our residents. They're the people that give us our jobs and our taxes and
our ability to be their democratic rule if you like. I like the idea of
neighbourhood partnerships but the reality is whomsoever are our new
unitary councillors have to make sure that they make up the democratic deficit that comes
from doing this. I'd be hugely supportive of whoever the new unitary councillors are.
They'll have a massive job on their hands, but I really do wish them well. I hope for
the best for them. Financially, a single unitary authority is without doubt the right way to
go and I never again want to have to stand up and explain to anyone that a district council
just does bins, bogs, planning and parking. I want to tell them that a local council looks
after them. Thank you.
Thank you very much. Thank you, Tony. And a pleasure to see you standing.
Councillor Mark Harris - 3:19:51
Councillor End. Thank you, Chair. Firstly, I'd like to thank
Councillor Nikki Ind - 3:20:05
colleagues, officers throughout Gloucestershire who have worked to provide us all with the
documentation, the member briefings to allow us to fully consider all the implications
of this local government reorganisation. As an independent counsellor, not in a group,
but on my own, I have found it really beneficial and it's been really helpful for me. Change
is always difficult. However, our residents and actually our staff should be our number
one priority. And finding a way for us to provide good value for money services
is going to be imperative and actually one of the things I'm most concerned
about are the local voices and having local voices heard we are a very large
county you know you're at my end, Tepere, Didmartin at the furthest point up to
the north up to Stowe and Blockley and then down to the Forest of Dean. So it
really is important that we find a way for this devolution and for voices in
our county to be heard. I can see advantages that they would both work but
I believe that in view of keeping our services safe by not splitting them up
and having efficient cost -effective services I will agree with the single
Councillor Mark Harris - 3:21:31
unitary option. Thank you. Thank you Nikki. Okay and we go to Councillor Cunningham.
Councillor David Cunningham - 3:21:39
Thank you Mr. Chair. No I do know yes it was the shortest one ever. This is going
to sound quite strange actually but what Councillor Hodgkinson said I agree with.
there is a lot of trepidation amongst the parish councils currently that there is not
enough information yet available to them about what their responsibilities are going to be.
We talk about the neighbourhood groups, we talk about them acting as another layer effectively,
we don't have the detail for them. So I would ask that as quickly as possible we get information
out to them because the parish council meetings that I'm going to, people are talking about
stepping down because they don't know what extra responsibilities they're going to take
and what it's going to mean to them. These are volunteers basically and all they see
in front of them is a lot more work and a lot less help. So I would ask that as quickly
as humanly possible we get the detail out of what other layer we'll be in in terms of
the neighbourhood groups and how it will be able to help those parish councils do a better
Councillor Mark Harris - 3:22:53
job. Thanks. Councillor Cunningham, a really good point. Before I go to, before I ask
Councillor Edmy to sum up, just a couple of words. Oh I'm so sorry, Councillor Spivey
wanted to speak. We didn't have you down. You go next, yeah.
Councillor Spivey. I'll just pick up very quickly on that point that
Councillor Lisa Spivey - 3:23:11
Councillor Cunningham made, which is very, very true. You're absolutely right and it's really,
really important. The only thing I would say is that we are working, you know, and
I can say this collectively, it's a bit odd
as leader of the County Council,
but we are working at pace to get as much information
as we can.
The problem, and I would just suggest is that
what we don't want to do is give information
that we don't know is true yet.
I think that would be even worse.
So Luke to Jane and Mike, we sit on weekly calls.
We are going through this
and now the implementation roadmap,
which we just discussed the other day,
has nine work streams and then over 100 services
to try to amalgamate.
because if you think of everything that the county councils deliver plus
everything that each of the six districts city and borough councils delivers we need
to work out a plan on how we could deliver that and I think it's also worth
bearing around when you do go to your town and parish councils I think it's
really important to say that vesting day so the first day of the new councils
isn't when everything is going to be up and running and I've heard from and
we've heard from many other councils who've gone through this process it's a
five -year it's a ten -year it's a 15 year plan so please could you reassure them
There won't be an expectation on day one that they are essentially becoming the district
council.
That is not the case.
There will be some who will want to take on more responsibilities and do more.
They will need to work out their own plans and strategies to do that.
They might need to bring more people into that.
They might need to pay them.
They might need to think about how they are going to precept for that and how they are
going to do that.
There will be some who will not want to do any more than what they are currently doing.
So I don't think it's a one size fits everyone for town and parish councils.
I just want to make that really, really clear about music at my time.
The one thing I did want to say, and I think, you know,
what has been brilliant in Gloucestershire,
and I think that we've shown ourselves to be very, very different to other places.
Genuinely, so it has been really brilliant collaboration.
Everybody's got around that table.
There's been political divides and geographical ones,
but we have really genuinely worked together on the two options
that you've seen before you today.
And that has been difficult times has been robust discussions.
and there will continue to be as we look through this.
But I think the point that I would really like to pick up on
is the fact that the government has basically dictated this
and foisted this upon us.
And I just want to be really clear that the crisis that we face
in local government, especially around funding,
and especially in those big ticket items,
adult care, children's care,
and the SEND deficits that we all carry,
and that special education needs and disabilities,
is not going to be solved by local government reorganisation.
It is literally akin to reorganising the deck chairs
on the Titanic.
That big, massive iceberg is looming.
And unless the government steps in and radically transforms
how it funds local government, and the budget today
has seen nothing like that.
We see no increase in the core spending on local government.
we are all facing a crisis. So we will all work very very hard through this. I do
believe that the single unitary council is the best way forward. I think for that
ease, for that having that wrapper for our residents to go to, I think you know
when I look at especially adults and children services, when I look at those
service directors and I talk about splitting up the county, they are ashen
faced and that's not to say though that they are not working hard to work out
how that could be done in the eventuality
that this decision not made by us here in Gloucestershire.
So where does the devolution part come into any of this?
But by ministers in Whitehall who will tell us
what they want us to do,
which just seems to completely fly in the face
of what devolution should be about.
And quite frankly, I think it is really, really insulting
to us at the frontline of local government
and service delivery to tell us exactly
to have all these discussions, to jump through all of these hoops and spend masses of taxpayers'
money and for them in Whitehall to make the decision.
I think what is really important, it's been picked up time and time again, I'm really
happy that it does keep coming back up, is the neighbourhood model and how that actually
is implemented and how we can really truly deliver for our residents at a local level.
Because let's face it, I do believe, I'm a Liberal Democrat, I really believe that local
government is best served at the most local level. So that's kind of
it's contradictory with the with the one unitary so I do see merits in a two
unitary split but I do think that ultimately we should have one council
but we absolutely must have a razor focus over the next 18 months and how we
truly deliver on that neighbourhood model ensuring that our town and parish
councils and have the information that they need that they have the skills that
they need in a plan in order to be able to deliver for that so that we can make
Gloucestershire fantastic and we make sure that our residents no matter what
government says and our prime focus and that we can continue to serve them. Thank
Councillor Mark Harris - 3:28:21
you. Thank you Lisa. Thanks very much for your insight there. Just before we
go to the phone, all I want to say is we really need to make this work.
There are no other options. We've got to make this work, all of us
together, however distasteful it is to some of us or not to others.
Very briefly, I used to be on the exec of GAPTC and NAWQA as well, and as we all know,
the variety between town and parish councils in Gloucestershire is extraordinary, from
a little parish meeting that meets once a year to large councils that have multi -million
pound budgets and everything in between.
And it's really important that we help and support them.
But equally, it's really important that they understand
that they've got to step up as well to some extent.
And if they want to, if they're up for it, they need to.
And they need to get various matters in order.
I think it's also vitally important that we learn from
other areas where this has happened as well.
What went wrong, what went well to make sure that we can,
as I've just said, really make it work.
So on that note I'm going to go to the vote.
Oh, I'm going to read.
I'm so sorry.
Councillor Edmond, sum up.
Councillor Edmond is going to sum up and then I will read the resolution because it's important.
It's not a report.
Later that evening.
I think is the short answer, Councillor Cunningham.
Councillor Mike Evemy - 3:29:47
So yeah, thanks everybody for all of your contributions.
Really good debate.
Totally agree with Councillor Stowe that I think the Forest of Dean have made their choice, but that isn't one that I think we should be making here.
I hear what Councillor Coleman says, but I'm not going to comment on that.
And to Councillor Fowles, the on balance point is on balance and it's in the resolution.
I've come to the view and I think we've heard around the chamber that there's
single unitary is better than the East West split and then the decision that
the cabinet will take if we vote for this resolution is to say that is our
preference. So you know ultimately it's a binary choice or it's a choice not to
make make one and so that's why that's written like that. To Councillor
Hodgkinson and others yeah that sense about splitting services was one of the
reasons that you know I've moved towards this position and you know particularly
particularly thinking and Councillor McEwen's point about you know the the
life and death services the County Council provides and you know I think
also was just mentioned by you chair learning from others.
Councillor Spivey will recall, we were joined by a leader of one of the two Cumbria councils
in one of our leaders' schools.
And he was careful not to essentially direct us in one or the other, but he pointed out
to us that splitting social services functions comes with a risk.
And I think it's a balanced decision.
Ultimately, we're not gonna decide, but it's one of the things that has led me to think
it's better to continue with a single social services function under one
under one council. To Councillor Joe Harris absolutely it wasn't in the
manifesto was it and the financial position this isn't going to fix the
finances. I think you look at the numbers on the unitary single unitary their
savings and there's been a lot of work on savings that David and his fellow
CFOs have done. They've come up with the figure of 21 million and the total budget
of 850 million or with East -West 11 million.
So it isn't going to fix the problem of funding in local government to go to unitary.
So the government seems to be saying that quite a lot.
It ain't anywhere near enough to Lisa's point as well.
Joe's point also about the MPs are important and one of the things we will do when we respond
is make our MPs aware and set and copy our MPs into the letter that I send to
to government so that they're fully aware of the decision that we are taking
today. Thanks for the points made by ONS, by Gina and by Angus. It was a very good
discussion we had over you and scrutiny just a couple of weeks ago last week and
and the points there about finances.
And I think the points, and it's been raised several times
and just addressed by Dyliss and by Lisa
and by others on that side of the chamber
around the importance of getting the neighbourhoods right,
because the point about the democratic deficit is right.
We're going from, if you look at it
from the Cotswold district,
there are 34 of us sat in this room.
Well, there aren't quite 34,
but there are 34 elected to sit in this room,
Plus at the moment a to elected to sit at Shire Hall. So there's 42 people
I know five of those are the same person but they don't necessarily have to be and yet in the new model
Whichever one we choose there will be any 16
So, you know though and you think about the workloads that we have either as district councillors or county councillors or both
That's where the neighbourhood partnerships have to come in because you know
We are not humanly able to it will be different to how it is now
So, and I think that point was eloquently made by very many, many members.
I probably am running out of time to go through what everybody has said and comment on it.
But reflecting the point that Gina made having quarterly reports to Councillor Turner.
Yeah, I must make the point about the numbers and for rural divisions, particularly.
And I think that's where we need to look at. How do we make these neighbourhood partnerships work for large rural areas like we have?
We know how big the County Council divisions are now,
and they're gonna have to be at least two.
So they're gonna be large.
And to Tony, you know, your point about,
we're here for the residents and the businesses.
Absolutely.
I've now run out of time really,
but thanks everybody for all your contributions.
You can stay around and watch us as the cabinet,
or you can do whatever you wanna do.
But thank you for all of your very succinct contributions
to the debate.
Please support the resolution.
Thanks.
Okay, thank you very much, Mike.
Councillor Mark Harris - 3:34:50
and thank you very much everybody for your contributions.
So, I'll just read out the resolution of what we resolved to do.
Council resolves, one, to request that the Cabinet proposes the single unitary council for Gloucestershire
in response to the Minister's invitation of the 5th of February 2025.
Two, to request that the Leader sends an accompanying letter to the Minister indicating the reasons for this decision
based on the debate of this meeting and a Cabinet.
Three, to request that the cabinet and officers continue their work to prepare for LGR in
advance for decision by the government that is expected in June or July 2026.
So if we could go to the vote, please.
24.
Anybody sitting on the fence out there?
29.
So 29 for and no abstentions or against so that motion is passed. Thank you very
much all that resolution is passed. Okay we'll now move on to item 14 the next
meeting of council will be held on the 21st of January 2026 meeting will start
at two o 'clock. Thank you members particularly for your discipline in this
long meeting where we've covered a lot of ground I greatly appreciate it.
Yeah, by all means.
The cabinet, I think, looking at the offices, we'd start the cabinet at six o 'clock.
Councillor Mike Evemy - 3:36:17
So that gives a little bit of...
That's right.
I was just about to say that.
Councillor Mark Harris - 3:36:20
And of course, to the public and people watching online, thank you very much.
I hope you all have a lovely Christmas.
I now close this meeting and the cabinet meeting will start in 10 minutes.

There are currently no votes to display