Overview and Scrutiny Committee - Tuesday 8 July 2025, 2:00pm

Overview and Scrutiny Committee
Tuesday, 8th July 2025 at 2:00pm

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Speaking:

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1 Apologies

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1 Apologies

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Councillor Gina Blomefield
Julia Gibson, Officer
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Julia Gibson, Officer
Councillor Gina Blomefield

2 Substitute Members

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3 Declarations of Interest

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Councillor Gina Blomefield

4 Chair's Announcements

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5 Public Questions

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6 Member Questions

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7 Local Plan Update

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Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Michael Vann
Councillor Ian Watson
Councillor Joe Harris
Councillor Clare Turner
Councillor David Cunningham
Councillor Nick Bridges
Councillor Tony Slater
Councillor Angus Jenkinson
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Juliet Layton
Officer
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Juliet Layton
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Juliet Layton
Officer
Councillor Gina Blomefield
David Stanley, Deputy CEO
Councillor David Cunningham
Officer
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Clare Turner
Officer
Councillor Juliet Layton
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Juliet Layton
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Joe Harris
Councillor Juliet Layton
Officer
Councillor Joe Harris
Councillor Juliet Layton
Councillor Joe Harris
Officer
Officer
Councillor Joe Harris
Councillor Joe Harris
Councillor Juliet Layton
Councillor Joe Harris
Councillor Juliet Layton
Councillor Joe Harris
Councillor Juliet Layton
Councillor Joe Harris
Councillor Juliet Layton
Councillor Joe Harris
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Tony Slater
Councillor Juliet Layton
Councillor Tony Slater
Councillor Juliet Layton
Officer
Councillor Tony Slater
Officer
Councillor Tony Slater
Councillor Juliet Layton
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Michael Vann
Councillor Michael Vann
Officer
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Ian Watson
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Ian Watson
Councillor Juliet Layton
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Juliet Layton
Councillor Ian Watson
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Angus Jenkinson
Officer
Councillor Angus Jenkinson
Officer
Officer
Councillor Angus Jenkinson
Councillor Juliet Layton
Councillor Angus Jenkinson
Officer
Councillor Angus Jenkinson
Officer
Officer
Councillor Angus Jenkinson
Councillor Juliet Layton
Councillor Angus Jenkinson
Officer
Councillor Angus Jenkinson
Officer
Councillor Angus Jenkinson
Officer
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor David Cunningham
Officer
Councillor David Cunningham
Officer
Councillor David Cunningham
Officer
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor David Cunningham
Councillor Juliet Layton
Councillor Gina Blomefield
David Stanley, Deputy CEO
Councillor David Cunningham
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Juliet Layton
Officer
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Juliet Layton
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Juliet Layton
Officer
Councillor Juliet Layton
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Joe Harris
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Joe Harris
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Angus Jenkinson
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Clare Turner
Councillor Gina Blomefield
David Stanley, Deputy CEO
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Angela Claridge
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Angela Claridge
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Angela Claridge
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Joe Harris
Councillor Joe Harris
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Gina Blomefield

8 PAS Peer Review and Action Plan

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Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Juliet Layton
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Officer
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Michael Vann
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Clare Turner
Officer
Councillor Juliet Layton
Officer
Councillor Juliet Layton
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Joe Harris
Officer
Councillor Joe Harris
Councillor Juliet Layton
Officer
Councillor Joe Harris
Officer
Councillor Juliet Layton
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor David Cunningham
Officer
Councillor Juliet Layton
Councillor David Cunningham
Officer
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Tony Slater
Officer
Councillor Tony Slater
Officer
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Angus Jenkinson
Officer
Councillor Angus Jenkinson
Officer
Councillor Angus Jenkinson
Officer
Councillor Angus Jenkinson
Councillor Juliet Layton
Councillor Angus Jenkinson
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Officer
Councillor Juliet Layton
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Juliet Layton
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Angela Claridge
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Angela Claridge
Councillor Angus Jenkinson
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Angus Jenkinson
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Juliet Layton
Councillor Angus Jenkinson
Officer
Councillor Angus Jenkinson
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Angela Claridge
Councillor Juliet Layton
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Angela Claridge
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Ian Watson
Councillor David Cunningham
Councillor Angus Jenkinson
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Angela Claridge
Angela Claridge
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Angus Jenkinson
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor David Cunningham
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Gina Blomefield
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Disclaimer: This transcript was automatically generated, so it may contain errors. Please view the webcast to confirm whether the content is accurate.

1 Apologies

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:00:04

Good afternoon, everyone. Very good to see you all here. Thank you so many of you for

being here yesterday as well. First, the first initial thing, a warm welcome to everyone

present including any members of the public, whether in person or watching online. I also

want to acknowledge the cabinet member in the singular, it's all going to be Juliet

Leighton who will be responding, and officers who will be giving

their reports and to all members of the committee and also the

officers present to support the overview and scrutiny committee

and its functions.

And that's the Democratic services in particular.

Thank you.

Normal housekeeping, the toilet facilities are out here,

the fire exits are marked.

Please put your phones on silent or turn them off.

We can all make that mistake still after many

times of reminders.

This meeting will be live streamed and will also be

available to view later through CDC's website.

If anyone wishes to fill in the proceedings, this is permitted,

provided it does not disrupt proceedings.

The entry into this meeting is much quicker because we don't

have a lot of items, but first of all, could I have

any apologies?

Julia Gibson, Officer - 0:01:24

We only have late notification of late attendance by

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:01:32

Councillor Lisa Spivey. And also we have apologies from yesterday and today

Julia Gibson, Officer - 0:01:37

because... Yes we do sorry we have apologies from Councillor John Waring and

we have then substitute a Councillor in Watson. Thank you very much for that.

2 Substitute Members

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:01:48

and declarations of interest from anyone.

3 Declarations of Interest

Wonderful, thank you for that.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:01:56

Okay, my announcements.

I just thank you all yet again for coming in today's running

for overview and scrutiny.

I think it's going to be a busy and interesting meeting.

So I'm going to keep the prelims to a minimum.

4 Chair's Announcements

I'm sure everybody has read the reports thoroughly.

So there's no need for lengthy introductions.

I'm going to say from Geraldine LeConte,

but I understand she's ill.

So Harrison Boley is substituting for her.

And also, Judith Layton will be as the cabinet member.

So once these have been completed,

we can get into the discussions.

As always, a reminder to keep your questions succinct

so that we can cover as many views and ideas as possible

when we open it up to questions.

When asking a question, I did ask this yesterday,

but it does help if you give the page number and reference when making it

because there's less shuffling through and trying to find exactly what you're

referring to. Going on from there, have we got any public questions? I don't believe

5 Public Questions

there's a member of the public here so I think that's probably no. Do we have any

6 Member Questions

7 Local Plan Update

member questions. Again, no, this is moving swiftly on, thank you. Now, it's the local

plan update. I'm hopeful that ONS may have some useful recommendations to submit to Cabinet

from this very useful report on the local plan. I was going to say welcome Geraldine

Lequan, but apparently she's not well, so welcome Harrison Bode.

What is your precise job description now?

Head of planning services.

Thank you, that's very good.

Actually also Helen Martin, who is our new director of communities and places away on

holiday, so she wasn't able to attend today.

Could I now ask...

Can I just do things?

Just, well, first of all, if you would like to come around and think.

And then, yes.

Yes.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:04:26

The only thing it applies is in planning committees.

Planning committees you really have to be there throughout.

For other meetings, whether it's full council, overview and scrutiny, I don't know what

but as far as I understand it, it has no legal, but for planning it has absolutely legal implications.

Apologies for...

There we are.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:04:50

Do we need to introduce ourselves?

I was going to do it.

Before we start off, we're just going to introduce all the members of the committee here

and make sure they turn their names around the right way so when the camera's on them,

if people know who they are, thank you very much indeed.

And Councillor Vann, would you like to start off

with telling us who you are?

Councillor Michael Vann - 0:05:13

Michael Vann, Fairford North.

Ian Watson, Teppertown Ward.

Councillor Ian Watson - 0:05:18

Councillor Joe Harris - 0:05:20

Joe Harris, St. Michael's Ward in Cirencester.

Councillor Clare Turner - 0:05:25

Claire Turner, Blotley Ward.

Councillor David Cunningham - 0:05:27

David Cunningham, Fosridge.

Councillor Nick Bridges - 0:05:32

Councillor Tony Slater - 0:05:36

Nick Bridges, Watermore, Syrinshire Stone. Tony Slater, Aisling with Granbold's Ash.

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 0:05:42

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:05:47

Angus Jenkinson, Moreton East and Todman. And Gina Bloomfield, Camden and Vale.

So now I don't know which of you is proposing to go first or how you want to go about it,

But please, I think Nathan, you'd like to say something?

Shall we just carry on with the council a bit,

and then Jo can introduce herself,

because she also is brand new.

So we've got a lot of new people.

Yes, sorry.

I didn't know who you were, so I didn't introduce yourself.

I'm sorry about that.

Yeah, that's fine.

Councillor Juliet Layton - 0:06:14

This is the local plan, forward planning.

Harrison's doing the past report as development management.

So, Andrea.

I appreciate that, and thank you to make that clear,

because I wasn't given advance notice of any of these changes.

We only knew yesterday, actually,

that we didn't know whether Geraldine LeCun is going to be

able to make it or not.

So, yeah.

Anyway, I'm Juliet Leighton, and I'm cabinet member for housing

and planning, and I'm here to present this report

this afternoon.

Officer - 0:06:50

Good afternoon, everybody.

I'm Jo Simmons.

I'm the new Head of Planning Policy and Infrastructure.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:07:03

Yeah, no, fine, absolutely. Just fire ahead, please.

Okay, well, first of all,

Councillor Juliet Layton - 0:07:05

so grateful for you guys and Gina for having another ONS meeting.

I know you all sat here for three hours odd last night,

yesterday afternoon,

And you're back in again today on this fabulous afternoon.

But it's, as you've noticed in the report,

time is of the essence, and this is really critical.

And if we hadn't got, if you hadn't agreed to extend your

agenda to take on this, we would have been another month down the

line without being able to make any progress.

So it is, you know, we are very time sensitive with this,

as you'll have read in the report.

So, after the report is, you have recommendations,

they will go to cabinet on the 10th,

and then this will be taken to full council

on the 16th of July.

And hopefully that will all be smooth,

and we'll get through, and we'll be often running

on our program of timeline that you've got on your papers.

We consider it's absolutely vital

that we agree to deliver a local plan and merge the two parts.

What we're asking you, what we're asking the council to do

is update, sorry, to merge the two local plan projects,

which is the partial update, which is virtually completed.

There's very little work to do with that.

And the development strategy and site allocation plan.

And we need to merge those in order to go forward

to get to Reg 19.

So we think it's absolutely vital if we don't do it as this District Council, which should

be submitted December 2026 and hopefully adopted 2027, which is actually only two years down

the line, we could be without a local plan, without housing, land supply, and under the

vulnerability of whatever developers wanted to do, when we get into a unitary authority,

it could take them another five years after vesting day

if we haven't got a local plan here.

If we have a local plan, they will undoubtedly use that

because it's here and it's safe.

We would be leaving the Cotswolds so vulnerable.

We've seen what's happened without a local plan in the past.

We don't get the infrastructure.

We don't get affordable homes.

We don't get S106 money.

we don't get strategic housing where and when we need it.

So as I said, this paper is simply asking us

to merge the two projects.

I can't recommend Joe enough on actually

writing this report.

It's incredibly clear.

And I don't think I need to talk much more

about this at all.

And I think open for questions.

Please.

Well, thank you.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:10:10

Councillor Watson, Councillor Turner.

Sorry, what am I doing?

Thank you, Chair.

In terms of the budgeting for this,

we've taken the, let's say, the already started local plan,

we're gonna merge that together with the new work.

Will there be additional budget requirements

to look after this?

Oh, can you turn on the, sorry.

Councillor Juliet Layton - 0:10:43

There may be, we will be putting aside extra resources in case.

We've got David Stanley here.

I don't know whether you want to come in.

I've just dragged you in.

Oh, no, Jo can answer this.

Actually, sorry, Jo.

She can answer exactly.

Officer - 0:10:57

So if you turn to page 28 of the report.

Or 32 of the written one.

Is it 32 of the written one?

Thank you.

So that sets out the budget in full.

So there is further evidence work that is required

as part of the local plan update,

which supports allocating the housing

for all the different needs and the employment land as well

and establishing the employment land and retail need.

And in addition, looking at the various infrastructure,

including the transport modeling.

So that's all in the evidence base.

We are also required to do a further two rounds

of consultations, regulatory consultations,

and obviously the examination now.

In terms of examination, the main expenditure there is

with regards to the planning and spectra,

but also in regard to council advice.

There is some additional staffing.

That includes a landscape consultant that we're employing,

as well as additional staff that are supporting us

through the process, including admin assistant

and other planners and a sustainable transport officer

who we've recently commissioned on a two -year contract.

And then obviously there is included in this budget

at the sign and system master plan,

but we do have an income from funding

that we've attained to date.

So we have a local plan budget, local plan reserve

outstanding that's previously committed

of around a million pounds.

And this does come within that budget.

However, there isn't any contingency there.

So that is where we are, but it, you know,

I think by the main points I mentioned here

is by combining the plan, the two plans together,

you're cutting down on costs in terms of two examinations,

you know, different consultations you'd have

to go through.

So it does provide that saving of, I think,

it's three or four hundred thousand overall.

Thank you very much.

Thank you.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:13:23

I understand David Stanley would like to come in and make

a point, thank you.

Thank you, Chair.

David Stanley, Deputy CEO - 0:13:28

I'll keep this simple. There's a million pounds sat in an earmarked reserve that will be

Will be used to pay for the majority of the plan

There's a couple of grants that the council has been successful in obtaining from MH CLG to assist with the preparation of the local plan

from memory that's

300 ,000 I am working my way through other one -off sources of funding to ensure there's an adequate contingency

because the decision that cabinet will be asked to take on Thursday subject to any recommendation

from this committee is endorse the approach which will then say a local plan must be delivered

by December 2026. Should that require additional resource to ensure it stays on track, that's

the part I'm going to do through the balances and reserves strategy that we'll be reviewing

between now and December. But quite clearly this is a significant piece of expenditure.

The council must have a local plan. If it doesn't have a local plan considering the

position with the five year housing land supply then the council would be spending a significant

amount of money defending planning appeals that are being lodged. So it's the issue for

committee and for cabinet is understanding the value that's being

added to the local plan evidence base and those individual items we will make

available as a priority the amount of funding that's required to deliver that

but clearly if those costs keep going up and up and up that makes it more

difficult for the council to support other priorities because there is a

finite amount of resource available.

Councillor David Cunningham - 0:15:15

I beg your pardon Madam Chair, I do have a question but it relates to a matter which

I'm not sure whether you will want to take offline or not.

It's regarding the £215 ,000 for the Morton Feasibility Study Stage 2.

Officer - 0:15:37

So currently we are undertaking the Morton Feasibility Study Stage 1, which is essentially

looking at whether a link road bypass in Morton is feasible and viable and how much development

would be required to make that viable. If it's not viable, then obviously substantial

development in Morton will not be able to go ahead. So really, so therefore stage two

will not be required. So really the stage one is really looking at is substantial development

in Morton feasible and viable from a transport perspective and if not that closes the door

on that 215 ,000. If it is shown to be feasible and viable then we do that further study.

But we will not know that until the end of August at the moment.

And that is on schedule, that piece of work.

Okay, thank you.

But you can't give any type of delta on the probability of it?

No, not at this stage.

Okay, thank you.

Okay, yes, I have to say...

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:16:49

Councillor CUNNINGHAM, did Andy jump in?

It's Councillor Turner, please.

Thank you.

Councillor Clare Turner - 0:16:56

I just want to echo Juliet's comments about the quality of the port which I found incredibly helpful and

set out the complexities in a very logical way with

Most of my questions answered as I went along from a scrutiny perspective

I was scraping the barrel a little bit to find points to challenge or ask more about

so I've got a couple of just quick questions the first is

You talked already about some of this the staffing and resorting in that respect and the report mentions on page 32

that part -time staff might increase their hours.

So I just wanted to ask if those conversations

have already taken place,

because obviously there is a lot of resources required

to achieve this kind of ambitious timeline.

So are we confident that all of those little pieces

are gonna come together?

And the second question is perhaps more for Juliette.

On page 39, the oversight board,

which is gonna be crucial to making sure

that things stay on track, the details presented of what the expectations of their terms of

reference are in there. Point E talks about acting as a sounding board for any specific

issues requiring member input prior to the submission of formal reports to cabinet. My

question is given that there is quite a strong siren sester focus on the members that are

listed in the terms of reference. There's no voices from the north, there's nobody from a sort of ONS

perspective and I'm sure that this will come to ONS again at some stage, but we don't want to hinder the timeline involved.

So I'm asking the question, would it not be healthy to include some non -cabinet members and cross -party members to steer the

project management side of it along?

Officer - 0:18:49

So, yeah, in regards to the first question with those resources, so those resources are

already in place in terms of we have previously retired members of the team who are helping

us out on a contractual basis.

They're very experienced.

So we have allowed for that.

And we obviously, as I said, we've recruited the Sustainable

Transport Officer.

We've got the landscape consultant on board, and they

are currently helping us out with our site assessment process

at the moment.

But we are yet to secure the admin assistant, although that

will be needed sort of a bit later down the line when we come

to the consultations.

Councillor Juliet Layton - 0:19:38

In terms of the oversight board, the leader was very keen to have an oversight board that

was different to the local plan programme board that we had in the past. We thought

with the discussion with officers that also that we could have something that was within

cabinet and we've got Andrea Pellegram as a hugely experienced planning person.

She has got a massive planning background. She was working here a

long time ago. She's done lots of neighbour plans. She knows very much about all of

the district actually. She's very aware of all of the district and that's

actually as district councillors we all should be. But I do get where you're

coming from, and also Tristan we've put down because he's very

good at strategic stuff and project management and IT and

things like that that will help us push this forward.

So it was considered, but he was definitely wanted it

from cabinet.

Oh, thank you, Judith.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:20:45

I actually had a question on that as to whether you would be

reporting to O &S, because that was one of my things,

So, because it would be good to hear direct from that,

not just a conversation within Cabinet.

Councillor Juliet Layton - 0:21:01

I think it will almost certainly have to keep people updated.

And what we don't want to do is have things held back.

If work's going to be held back by decision making,

we don't want to have that held back by meetings,

because that can hold us back by months.

So we've got to, with the timeline,

we can easily fit in reporting back to ONS or reporting back,

well, clearly we'd be reporting back to Cabinet,

and then, you know, those papers would be published

and come in anyway.

But, I mean, what the danger is if suddenly we've got to have

a council meeting and, you know, it was critical that we had

today, which is why I was saying thank you very much for that,

because it could have been held back again by another month,

and it's holidays, and it becomes very difficult

if we are subject to our meetings throughout the year.

Official meetings.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:22:02

I absolutely appreciate what you're saying.

But it is just that whether we issue a Skittendarton Report,

not everybody reads all the cabinet papers properly

from end to end, all members, if they're not.

And as it is, the rest of the members are in the cabinet.

It's almost like its own.

I'm not saying it would be but it would be useful that it does have some

Outside overlook occasionally and not saying that we'd have to have a full meeting on it

But whether it's just reports added to a meeting or something so that we're just aware of where you're at

And if there was any concerns we could raise them

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:22:37

This we will go thank you might well come on to that. Thank you. Thank you. I think that's very much

It's Councillor Harris. I haven't forgotten about you

Councillor Joe Harris - 0:22:49

I've got a few questions, so do you want me to take one at a time?

We've got all afternoon, haven't we?

Fantastic.

Um, Juliette, um, local plans that arrive on time are a bit like hen's teeth, in that they are very, very rare.

I can remember at this Council your predecessor in the role, not me, the one before, Councillor Kotzkuhn telling a Council meeting that in 2020 that our refresh of the local plan would be adopted in 2023.

So obviously two years on, there's still absolutely no sign of that.

So, you know, why should anybody believe that this local plan is going to hit the timescale?

Councillor Juliet Layton - 0:23:45

Are you doing them one by one, yes?

Well, I think, yeah, I know that Rachel was very keen to get that done.

We did get the policies worked on.

I think we've got a timeline now.

We've got all that work is done, because we wanted to be green to the core.

We've got policies for that.

All that work is done virtually.

I think there are a few tweaking bits.

We've also had lots of stuff coming from government, as you know.

things have changed and we didn't have, what we didn't have was a full team of

people working on it all the time. So it was quite a lot of disruption around

the department really, but I think we can stick to this timeline because we've got

work that's already there. We're not starting again, we're just merging the

two, which was also a way of slowing up. We slowed up a lot and when I lost my

cabinet roll for a bit.

We slowed up six months, Jo.

But we won't go into that.

I don't know whether Jo whether you've got anything

to add to that.

Thank you.

Officer - 0:24:51

So yeah, I mean, I can understand your concerns

because it's very reasonable given that plans

notoriously take on average about seven years,

but by the time we get to adoption,

if it is at the end of 2027, that will be seven years,

because this plan started at the beginning of 2020.

So obviously there's been a lot of work done today.

If we were starting afresh, I wouldn't say it was really possible.

But the team have done all of the DM policies.

We've got, if you like, a template for all of our site allocations

and strategic policies to put those into.

So a lot of work has been done.

We've done a call for sites already

in the previous consultations.

We've got all those sites that have already come forward

that we're currently assessing.

And what I would say, actually, is

I think we're at an advantage because 80 % of the district

is national landscape.

And we've got a further 4%, which is either constrained

or built on.

You have only got about 16 % of the district that you can actually look at in terms of

any sort of strategic development.

So it really sort of narrows down your options.

And because of that, you know, it may be that we can then look to reduce housing requirement

figure, which again, if you like, sort of narrows down what we have to do.

So I would say that actually helps us in a lot of ways because we are only looking at

certain areas of the district.

And the other thing I would say, we have commissioned a lot of evidence and a lot of evidence is

already happening at this point in time or has happened.

So for example, we've already done a gypsies and traveler assessment.

We're just updating, we're going to be updating that.

We've got a green belt study underway.

There's several other pieces of evidence.

And one of the pieces of evidence I was quite worried about was the transport modelling.

So I've actually, when I first started, I engaged with the County Council in that regard.

Because I'm aware it can really slow things down.

And what they advised was that it's better if we as Gloucestershire authorities can move

together as one on this.

So we are sort of looking to procure a consultant who does the same sort of methodology.

So the County Council are happy with that approach and have sort of built that in terms

of their timelines and their work as to when they can do things.

So there's going to be a working group set up with them

every two weeks with the County Council and National Highways.

So we can keep sort of abreast of what's

happening all the time.

Also going to have a project manager.

We have got a project manager currently,

but we're making that person full time

from current savings in the team of people who are part time.

So that will help in terms of managing risk and just

making sure that everything is kept on track.

So if you like, we're doing everything we can to make sure it's happened.

And also had a meeting with PAS, the Planning Advisory Service, a couple of weeks ago.

And in regards to when we go to the planning inspector,

there's a lot of plans that are going to be submitted at that time.

They're ensuring that they have enough inspectors on board to actually move the plans through,

because obviously, you know, it's in the government's interest that as many plans are in place as possible.

Councillor Joe Harris - 0:28:38

Thank you for that comprehensive answer.

Clearly, in any local plan, the allocation of strategic sites is usually the most controversial

item.

And I think, as we've sort of witnessed with the situation at Morton, you know, having

a battle plan is all very well.

But what's that saying?

Sort of battle plans are great until they

make contact with the enemy.

And for me, it's a case of local plan proposals

are great until they make contact with the public.

And I think my concern here is that we're

going 100 miles an hour to try and get

this local plan in place.

But as we know in the Cotswolds, we've got a, I would probably

say, an over -engaged set of residents

who are well -resourced, who are well -organized in some cases.

certainly the Morton example in my experience.

And maybe just a view from Juliette in the first instance,

how are we going to square those?

How are we going to balance meaningful engagement

with residents, which I think you've been quoted as saying

is very important in this process,

and that pace that we're trying to achieve here.

So maybe a view on that.

And then the communications more generally, clearly the,

you know, I was a leader of the council.

The approach we took with Morton, I think,

in the first instance, or probably the second instance,

was a bit of a dumpster fire.

You know, I'm willing to put my hand up and say we can handle

that better, say, how are we going to sort of learn from that

and what's the communication strategy going to be around this?

Are we going to have dedicated staff, you know,

that are committed to this in particular?

because I think if we're looking at big strategic sites,

we have to be communicating.

We have to be communicating very well.

And what I don't want, you know, I think is certainly suboptimal

is our fantastic planning officers responding to reams

and reams and reams and loads of correspondence in great detail

because that's what residents want and demand.

So, yeah, two questions then.

How are we going to do engagement

and make sure it's meaningful,

particularly as this is going to be at pace?

And how, what does the communications plan look like

around this and how are we going to resource communications

around the local plan?

Councillor Juliet Layton - 0:31:01

Well, we have Matt on board who is in here somewhere,

I think.

Oh, over there, yes.

So he has already got things lined up.

And once we get through knowing what we're going to do,

we will then be working more with Matt about how we're

going to keep everybody up to date. I mean, I think if we, you mentioned Morton a few

times, and I think I've been saying all along with the site in Morton is that there was

lots and lots and lots of noise about it. Of course there was because it expanded and

grew. We've never known, and as Joe just said, we won't know until August whether or not

that site's viable for doing anything with. We don't know unless we've got infrastructure

there and it's viable to do. We don't know that we can do anything in Moreton.

So to engage with areas that might get into the plan or people here that might

be put as strategic sites in the plan, unless we've got that viability, to do

the work that we've done in Moreton and have the meetings, which cost a lot of

money to run those meetings and have contractors come in and support us with those meetings.

They're really expensive in terms of the money we've got in office time and everything.

We don't need to do that until we know that it's going to be a site that's developable.

So I wouldn't be saying, oh, we're going to be holding more meetings in Moreton in the

next month because I don't think we're ready for that.

Or if something comes up at the other end of Sire ancestor

or near Kemble or wherever,

I'm just throwing names out here.

As we said, we've only got 16 % of land to build on,

but we can't be having those kind of public meeting

engagements about a development

if it's not gonna come through.

So I think that is a waste of resources.

is when we get there, we'll have to look at other resources

and see what we've got.

But I think it's very important we get this

in our strategic sites done, which we're working on.

And Matt, we've got Matt Britton here, he's working on.

We've got a full team of people I know today.

Sorry, Gina, I'm a bit confused.

So if we have strategic sites elsewhere in the district,

be that, I don't know, in this area,

we won't be following the same process

that we followed in Morton in order to do that.

I don't think we can have a meeting saying what's going to happen in Morton or anywhere else

unless we know the site is developable.

We knew when we had, let's go back to Chesterton, we knew that we could develop on that site.

We knew the infrastructure would be there.

We knew what was coming so we could have public meetings about it and put things in place.

but if we're just looking at a field that we don't know that it's going to take one building,

ten buildings, a hundred buildings, how do we have a meeting about something that's ethereal?

So if you were a resident in Moreton, might you be asking the question that the meetings

that we've had today were a bit of a waste of time?

I would say we were probably too early with those meetings. This is my personal view. They

They were taxing for all the staff.

They took a lot of time to do, a lot of effort

and a lot of money.

And personally, I felt they were too early

but the pressure was on to have them.

So we had them, but as we said, we don't know until August

whether or not the site is viable.

And if it isn't viable, then maybe those meetings

have been a waste of time.

I mean, I'm not saying this, I'm saying this absolutely personally from me.

I think we need to communicate, we need to communicate when we know something might happen.

Okay, so just coming back to, I've got one more question after, I just want to be absolutely,

so there were two parts of my question, there was around engagement and how do we ensure meaningful engagement

Councillor Joe Harris - 0:35:15

with residents when we're acting at pace, because we will get, you know, inevitably we're going to get a lot of fire

from residents, whatever happens, because strategic sites,

so how are we going to ensure meaningful engagement whilst

moving at pace?

And then I think you talked around it a bit, but is, so are

you saying that a communications plan will be developed and that

will be adequately resourced?

And if that means a member of staff, that will happen?

I just want clarity on those two things.

Officer - 0:35:49

So just a couple of things in regard to this.

So when we go out to our first consultation, which is a regulation 18 consultation, we

are going to take a very high level view in terms of the, you know, where development

is located.

So we're currently doing a broad location study which looks at all the constraints in

the area.

And as I said, there's about 16 % of the district that can be developed.

And we're going to go out and all those areas are divided up into smaller areas and they're

currently being assessed.

And we're going to go out with that study to ask the public views on development in

all those areas that we can possibly look at to really sort of drill down as to what

might be appropriate from their point of view.

And we're also going to be consulting on our spatial strategy in terms of where development

may go as the whole of the district, you know, perhaps it's not concentrated in the national

landscape, you know, we're going to concentrate in our main towns and villages, you know,

what sort of strategy we're going to do.

I'm sorry, I totally understand that.

I totally get that.

I'm asking is up present, is there a communications plan or the sketch of a communications plan

and sitting with that or underneath it, is there details on how that's going to be resourced,

whether that's with funding, whether that's a member of staff, and so on and so forth.

Because Gilead has already mentioned these events cost money, so my concern is that our

communications on this, which is critically important because we're going to get it in

the neck as members, you know, that we've got communications that is adequately resourced

and is able to deal with this challenge.

And then that other point, how do we ensure meaningful engagement?

So I might want to bring in Matt Abbott here because we're working very closely with Matt

and the communications team,

this is being recognised as a council priority.

And currently we're putting together a strategy

with Matt about how we're going to communicate this,

you know, this whole message.

So, I bring in Matt.

Officer - 0:38:07

Yeah, okay. Thank you for the opportunity.

Sorry, could you just introduce yourself fully, please?

Of course, yes.

So I'm Matt Abbott, Head of Communications of Cotswold District Council.

So yes, we have been aware of, obviously been aware of the sort of proposal around the local

plan options for a little while and have been giving that some good thought.

We had a meeting with the planning team last week to understand the different milestones,

the different stages to this.

and once this decision has been taken by cabinet in the next week or so or over

the next week and by council as well we will resource this as we need to. We've

got a pretty good understanding of what it takes, what it's going to need and I'm

pretty confident that we've got the resources to ensure we do the very best job on this.

Councillor Joe Harris - 0:38:59

Then there's a second point around engagement. How do we ensure meaningful

engagement and what that will look like as we're moving at pace.

I've got one more question about housing, then I promise I'm done.

Thank you.

Councillor Joe Harris - 0:39:33

Just finally then on housing.

So there's, you know, it's great to see there's reference to, you know, delivering more affordable

and social rented homes in the, you know, through this local plan.

So how will the plan ensure that genuinely affordable homes is delivered at meaningful

scale, particularly with the housing target that we've got?

We've seen lots of examples, haven't we, where lots of houses are delivered and the affordable

element and the genuinely affordable element is pretty small and developers

cite viability so yeah how do we ensure that you know generally affordable homes

Councillor Juliet Layton - 0:40:12

are delivered at scale? Well we've already got that in our policies that

went through Reg 18 a while ago. I can't remember what date that went actually, last year. So that was

already in Reg 18. The government is asking us to do affordable and genuinely

affordable. We're looking at 40 % I think in our local our new policies. What I'd

like to remind everybody though, I mean I'll carry on answering this but this

isn't what this is asking us to do is merge two plans and get them going more

than the content of the plan because we've kind of discussed that I think in

Council before with taking them as two separate plans the strategic and the and

and the policy plan.

So what this, we're looking at here,

is to bring us back to what our recommendations are,

is to merge the two,

rather than question the strategic element of it.

But...

I've done the only reason I ask,

because it's in point 111 of the report,

benefits of doing this is that we can

increase the, you know, at that scale,

we can increase the level of affordable housing.

So I just wondered.

Councillor Joe Harris - 0:41:27

Yeah, I'll go back to my original question.

Councillor Juliet Layton - 0:41:30

Well, if we don't have it, the developers will put in housing

wherever they want, and they won't give us any affordable

housing.

They will do what they want to do.

So if we don't have it, a local plan with the strategy we're

looking at, we won't get those affordable housing.

And when developers will say, well, we'll give a bit to, you

know, maybe they'll say, we'll give a bit to social.

and then they'll say, well, no provider will come and take those on.

And so that gets dropped.

We will be really, we won't have any control if we don't have the plan.

If we have the plan, we've got our policies that says what we're doing, what we want,

what we expect in terms of social housing, affordable housing, the numbers of bedrooms,

dwellings, all of that will come in when we've got a local plan that is going through and

gets adopted.

But if we don't have it, as you know, Joe,

developers do what they want because they can.

And if we argue it, then we spend all our money on appeals.

Councillor Joe Harris - 0:42:34

Even if something's done on appeal,

there is still usually an allocation

of affordable housing.

I appreciate we lose a bit of control in that.

But it's not right to say that no affordable housing is

delivered when things happen on appeal.

We won't get what we asked for in our policies and we won't necessarily get

Councillor Juliet Layton - 0:42:56

all the green issues that we've asked for in our policies like solar panels

like heat pumps like batteries, EV chargers, all the rest. We won't get

that and the volume of affordable housing and what we get and where it will

be totally out of our hands.

Councillor Joe Harris - 0:43:18

Isn't it out of our hands already at the minute because we don't have a five -year housing

land supply?

Councillor Juliet Layton - 0:43:22

Of course, and the developers are putting things down and that we don't, but the only

reason we don't have a five -year land supply is because the government changed the rules

on December the 12th.

We had seven years on December the 12th, we still got a local plan that is adopted.

We should, in all intents and purposes, be in a safe place to have run the local plan

gently along reviewing as we would do with five years to go to get that into

place so we would replace the adopted with a new one but with the government

regulations now we have not got the pleasure of that we've just got to

knee -jerk reaction kick it in to place and luckily we had started and we were

doing that work and a lot of that as Joe said masses of that works already been

done, the bit that we're doing now is the strategic bit. And that's grown because

of the demand, the fact that we were only looking at 400 roughly and now we're

looking at over a thousand houses a year. So we've, you know, we've got to find

either places for those or work with other areas and collaborate with

other places like Chartenham and Shutesbury to offset that.

Councillor Joe Harris - 0:44:35

Thank you Julia. I've got a couple of recommendations, but take more questions first.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:44:42

Thank you, no, Councillor Cunningham will not next. Councillor Sleater's now next I'm afraid.

Councillor Tony Slater - 0:44:49

Yes, thank you. On page seven, the section relating to greenbelt and green space etc.

We flirted with the idea of creating a Cotswold National Park in the past.

Would that give us more protection in the context of the revised MPPF?

Councillor Juliet Layton - 0:45:12

Greenbelt, we've only got a tiny bit and that's near Cheltenham and I don't think it's got, we can't have the grey belt there because I don't think there is any grey there.

So I think that bit is a very small piece of land.

As far as national parks, yes, that came up as an idea and we rejected it here because

we wanted to keep control of our development and housing and planning.

But we have got a national landscape that has exactly the same protection within the

new MPPF as a national park does.

So the AOMB, as was, is protected.

there might be areas of slightly fuzziness I think coming up on the edges

because we would be protecting the edges of it more of what you can see in the

sites that this might come through I don't know whether that has come through

yet or because we've got other bills coming you know we've got things coming

up all the time and I think we've got a planning reform bill as well we don't

know about yet. So all sorts of things.

Councillor Tony Slater - 0:46:17

Thank you for that and noted that that lonely leaves effectively 16 % of our

area available for development. I would imagine the people that are living in

that 16 % once the plan comes through are going to be quite vociferous in their

objections because obviously they're going to get large lumps of development

potentially on their doorstep which sort of alludes to Councillor Harris's

concerns about when that's then public there's going to be all sorts of flak

Councillor Juliet Layton - 0:46:57

coming our way. I absolutely agree with you yes because you know people come to

the Cotswolds to live in small villages. There is a way that we might not have to

produce the number of houses that we're told to because we've only got 16 % but

actually that gets a bit technical so I'm going to hand over to Jo will

explain that far better and how we have to work with other neighboring

authorities to divvy up so anyway I'm going to give that yeah I mean

Officer - 0:47:31

we don't

have the evidence yet to say we can't deliver the 1036 homes per year so you

We have to wait until we have the evidence.

Again, that has to go through a planning examination

and be found by an inspector.

But it's likely that we may not be able to meet

that full figure.

So in that regard, I'm already sort of meeting

with the other authorities surrounding us to see

if they can help in taking on board any of our needs.

So that is something that's been looked at.

And once we know what we can do in this area,

then we can actually go with them to say,

this is what we can't do.

So therefore, can you do anything in regards to that?

And also when we come to the sort of Gloucestershire

spatial strategies going forward,

they will actually look at the housing needs

of the area as a whole,

whether we can buy the Gloucestershire Worcestershire,

for example, in the future, they will look at everybody's housing needs and the unmet

need of the area and then they can't allocate development but they will look at sort of

spatial, they will look at it spatially as to where may be appropriate.

Councillor Tony Slater - 0:48:47

When you say they, is that the government?

Officer - 0:48:50

Sorry, no, these are the kind of new spatial, I don't know, the regulations haven't come

out but they're the spatial sort of boards, if you like, the spatial areas of the mayoral

areas.

Councillor Tony Slater - 0:49:02

So given that we're actually saying we've got 16 % of the Cotswold districts that we

can develop, could we not be more proactive in going back to the government and saying,

look, you've given us this target, but we've only got this amount rather than this amount.

Is that a thing that we could do?

Councillor Juliet Layton - 0:49:20

I think when we were in consultation, every council said what you're saying.

And I mean, you think of all the councils on coastal plain, you know, how do you do

it if you're in Brighton?

You've got the sea.

There are places that are probably more constrained than we are.

There are places that don't need to put in quite so many.

And I think one or two councils actually dropped their housing figures, but not many.

So everybody did do that in consultation.

They seem to be immovable.

I mean we could do a motion to council to write to the to the government say we

can't do it but I think we've got to have the evidence first and all councils

really are struggling with this we've all been dropped in it.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:50:15

Well thank you that's just before we go on to is going to be councillor Vann I do

want to back up for translation that we do need to concentrate on the

recommendations and be looking at it from I don't mind and I like all the

other questions but just to concentrate that that is what we're really looking

Councillor Michael Vann - 0:50:41

at so I put Councillor van please continue thanks first report really is

excellent and I see what we're doing this afternoon as fleshing out just

little bits of it and with a clear recommendation to proceed. I do

think briefing for those not directly involved is important that means that

includes all 34 councillors and inviting parish and town councils in at the appropriate time,

which time may very well be sooner than one would like.

And here it's good that comms are very much focused on what's needed.

I've made a comment for myself that who can guide CDC through this tortuous process and

you've already said that there's a project manager, is that you?

No.

It's not you, right.

So there will be a project manager?

Yes, that's correct.

I'm the head of planning policy and then there would be a project manager who would specifically

manage this programme of work and have a project plan for every single piece of evidence and

every single stage of the process.

Sorry.

Councillor Michael Vann - 0:52:19

I'm not doing very well here.

Right, so that's good news that you're not the project manager because you've got to

as someone for the project manager to report to,

and that's you.

So that's, I find, very reassuring.

At this stage, just like to emphasize

if we don't go ahead, and I think we can,

bearing in mind the work that has already been done,

we're not looking at something July 25 to 20,

We're looking at something that started under a different guise in two proposals back in

2020.

That's correct, yes.

Officer - 0:53:12

So we started with the review of the development management policies in 2020 and the start

of 2024.

Was it 2023?

We looked at reviewing the sites.

Great.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:53:32

Thank you. It's Councillor Watson.

Councillor Ian Watson - 0:53:39

Chair, just for clarity, are there any questions or recommendations yet?

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:53:45

Sorry. I would like to flesh everything out and have the questions and then we come up

with recommendations as Councillor Harris is going to have two possible to put to us

later and we've already got one on it so yes you were looking into recommend you

Councillor Ian Watson - 0:54:03

can put it now you can suggest it now but we don't be it is I think I think

councilor Harris's questions and the answers we received as there's 90 % of

what I was going to talk about but I I know we've got this 1000 target it's a

huge change from 400 to 1000. I would like to see that that kind of information, the

local plan when it's completed, is disseminated down to the local parish, both officers, clerks

and councillors, because it will affect everybody, not just the 16%. The 1000 new houses won't

be entirely made up of huge estates. It might be one in a village here, two in a village

there, two in a village there. So the information, the local plan shouldn't just sit on the shelf

here in CDC, but also that information through a comms policy is disseminated down to the

towns and parish councils.

I have a question for you.

Councillor Juliet Layton - 0:55:12

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:55:16

You were happy to think about that.

We'll come back to it.

Councillor Juliet Layton - 0:55:21

All I was going to say was when we go to Regulation 19,

all that information is in one document and everybody gets it.

They don't all get it.

They can pay for the actual hard copy of it.

It's an expensive document, but everybody,

the town and parishes will get it, it goes, you know, there'll be consultation about that.

So it's nothing like one book sitting in a dusty cupboard somewhere in planning.

It's very much live and it'll be on...

Councillor Ian Watson - 0:55:53

I absolutely appreciate that and I'm not expecting, I don't expect that any parish council would

read that book. But a good comms process will get that information through into a one -person

based document into a PowerPoint slide that we can share with our clerks, that we can

share with our parish councillors. So they've got a base understanding.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:56:18

Thank you for that. I've got Councillor Jenkinson.

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 0:56:25

Thank you, Chair. Can I echo the comments that have already been made by others, Jo,

to the effect that I thought this was a fantastic paper.

It was very clear.

I thought that it resolved itself to four questions,

which I'll come to in a moment.

Just to demonstrate that I have actually read it, so to speak,

I do have a simple question about the language on page...

It's item 6 .1 on a page number that I've now written over.

Thirty.

And the question is whether there's a missing not, the word NOT.

There's a something and something, and it's a little bit unusual language unless there's

a missing not.

Officer - 0:57:43

No, that is correct. It does include other work.

Because, yeah.

And then the other one also does.

Yeah, but does reflect.

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 0:58:02

Officer - 0:58:06

Officer - 0:58:14

Yes, it should probably be and reflects.

Yes, rather than does.

Thank you.

So if I can continue.

Thank you.

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 0:58:21

I saw this as essentially four questions that we were being

asked to answer.

The first is, is having an area plan important?

The second is, is the process of consolidating the two plans

the right thing to do?

The third is, is the approach that's being taken right

or appropriate?

And the fourth is, is it correct that we should make it a

financial priority and therefore allocate the funding?

And in principle, my answer would have been yes to all four, but it is the approach aspects

or some of the aspects of that and the viability, so to speak, of the plan that you've been

hearing questions about.

And turning, going on from that, therefore, my ward is in Moreton in Marsh.

we've been hearing about it. It is the ward in which all of the development that was problematic

of the last 20 years took place. It is the ward that was planned as the centre of the strategic

development that is going on. It is the people living in the town who've been interacting with me

over all of the problems, and I've been at the forefront of all of that. So I have the battle

scars, so to speak, of the process, as officers know.

And it's in the light of that that I'd

like to just ask a few questions that are, in a sense, related

to what is going on, Joe.

The first is, there was a Morton working group set up,

which was intended to support the process

and make sure that the people in the area

were understood what was happening

and contribute to what has happened.

18 months on, it is never meant.

Is it intended, if the Morton Working Group,

if Morton remains a strategic plan,

is it intended to start it?

Is there an intention to have anything like that if there

is somewhere else that goes?

That's my first question.

I have some others which I could put at the same time,

because they all apply to this.

Although we have 16 % referenced, various people ask questions like,

well, why don't we just distribute 20 houses in every village?

When I look at 20 ,000 houses over 20 years, I doubt that it takes up 16%.

I doubt that if it takes up 1 % of the land, I'm not sure it takes up a half a percent of the land.

So what we're talking about is, in the totality, a relatively small amount.

So I'm trying to get a sense of whether we still intend to go for, are we going for strategic

sites?

And if we are going for strategic sites, how many have we already identified as possibilities?

That's my second question.

And what kind of engagement is expected with those strategic sites?

I raised the question when Morton was made a strategic site, I said, are you prepared

for everything that will happen.

And I was assured, absolutely we are.

We do it all the time.

We have the resources.

We know what we're doing.

And we did not.

So I know how experienced you are.

So I suspect the answer this time will be different.

But I'm going to stop at that point.

I have one.

Councillor Juliet Layton - 1:01:56

I'll take the working group because I was there

and part of it.

I think I said at the time when we were up in Moreton that we

don't need to have regular working group meetings if we've

got nothing to work on or report about.

And as I said before, we haven't actually got anything to report

about because we don't know whether Moreton is viable and we

don't know what we're looking at yet.

And when we do, then the Moreton working group will be up and

running as other area groups will be as well.

But to have meetings with nothing to say seems a bit

wasteful of officer time, everybody's time.

So I know that there was a working group that Morton

thought we were supposed to be at, I think, last month.

I didn't have it in my diary.

I'd never seen any calendar invite or anything about a group meeting at that

time and neither had anybody in the planning department so I'm not quite

sure where that came from. So yeah, we will have working groups but you

need to have something to have a group meeting about.

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 1:03:21

With respect, with respect, Juliet, I was the one who was fielding all of the questions that came because we were not engaging and not communicating.

The town has got 20, 30 signs all over it, plastered Morton against overdevelopment.

It's got signs a hundred feet long.

This town is 96 % against Morton overdevelopment if you drive into the town.

This is a prime activity which is causing massive, it lost us a seat in terms of, it

gained us a seat if you're in one party, lost us a seat if we were in another party.

So the point is it was a big political issue.

And my, I'm not speaking about it as a political issue.

What I'm saying is the people, the people make it a major issue

and they are very organized as we've already heard.

It's really important that we get on the front foot.

So if we've, if we're thinking of three strategic sites,

we've got to think about how to manage that.

If we've got one alternative, presumably there's some

alternative to Morton since it's uncertain.

And I'm just asking, what's the plan for dealing with the alternative to Morton?

Officer - 1:04:49

So there are currently 16 locations for strategic sites, new settlements that we're currently

assessing.

However, most of these are non -starters because they're in the national landscape.

We haven't got a final number that we'll be recommending in

the plan yet because we're still doing the assessment work.

Thank you.

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 1:05:14

I find that very reassuring that you've got 16,

you're looking at 16, you're assessing them.

It tells me that you are investigating.

I didn't, I'm not surprised, but I'm glad to hear it.

Thank you.

There's a new design code that's coming along.

How are we going to assess the appropriateness and rightness of that code?

Officer - 1:05:40

I might hand over to Matthew Britten here because I haven't got much knowledge about

this.

Thank you.

Officer - 1:05:59

Matthew Britton, the principal planning policy officer in the planning policy team and the

infrastructure team.

Yeah, the Cotswold design code, it's already an appendix in the local plan.

So we are updating that as part of the wider update of the local plan and like any other

local plan policy, it's going to go through the local plan process.

So we've already got like a nearly completed draft of that design code and yeah, it will

be consulted on like any other local plan policy.

And also, just to say as well, we have also done a consultation

on the design code already, so it's really had the benefit

of one consultation already, so yeah.

Thank you.

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 1:06:48

We're trying to do this at speed.

When you're trying to get things done at speed, but you also have

to do it well, you make policy decisions about what constitutes

a priority to take care of and what is less important,

and you can perhaps slip it.

Do you have an assessment of what sort of things might be

lower priority that you might normally do if you had leisurely

time but you might not be doing on this occasion?

Councillor Juliet Layton - 1:07:23

I think, as Matt said about the design code,

that's already been through consultation,

and all the policies have been through reggae to...

I meant on everything.

Yeah, well, I'm just saying that we've...

You know, a lot of our process is already done, paid for, in place.

We're looking at strategic sites.

When you were asking about strategic sites,

Moreton was never the only site that was going to be ever looked at.

That work was going on all across the district.

The thing that's really kicked this into,

we've got to do something quickly is the new regulations and the fact that if we

don't do it by December the 26th the government are going to do it for us so

you know they will it will be a new it'll be a new method of a local plan

which won't be I think as probably safeguarding as what we can do as a

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 1:08:22

district thank you let me be clear because what I want to be able to say

yes, okay, let's do all of this and let's allocate the money.

So that's what I'd like to be able to do that.

But if we've got 16 at the moment and most of them we can't

do or a number of them we can't do, it might end up that there

are going to be two places we're going to do it or one place that

we're going to do it or three places we're going to do it as

well as a number of smaller ones.

And if there's one or two major sites that we're going to do it

in, whether or not that includes Moreton, because obviously I

I'm assuming Morton won't take it all.

There could be the necessity to do the same kind of level

of consultation as we've already met at Morton.

Or it might be that you think, no, we can do it,

we can push it through much more quickly.

And it's the, in a sense, I'm building on questions

that were asked earlier.

I'm just trying to get a sense of whether we've included

the need for the resources to do the job properly as well as an

assessment of what might not be so necessary to be sufficient.

Officer - 1:09:36

Okay, so there is guidance, for example,

on all of the essential evidence that should be undertaken when

you do a plan review.

So when I started, we had a workshop with sort of all my principal planners to say,

look, which four by five events do we actually need to do here?

Because, you know, in order that we can get this plan through in time.

So we've done that.

We've then also thought about our consultation.

So what's normal is you might do two regulation 18 consultations.

So you would do a sort of issues and options consultation.

And then you will then go out to do your preferred options, which is where you prefer to allocate

your development.

Now that is the stage we are not doing because we don't have time.

So we are doing a sort of high level, as I said, Regulation 18 consultation to look at

our broad locations for development and our sort of strategy for development.

And then we will then go straight to this is our draft local plan.

This is where we are proposing to put our sites.

We have passed that method by a planning inspector.

Because there is a risk with that in terms of the fact that, for example, you know, you

are not you will get a lot of consultation responses at that second stage of consultation.

And that's the risk you go with.

But you do, as long as your strategy doesn't change,

you can propose modifications to the plan in that regard.

And you put those to a planning inspector.

But it's the planning inspector who will then decide,

in terms of soundness, what is an appropriate strategy

and what is appropriate, given all of the responses.

So there is risk.

But it's the way, it's really the only option we have in terms

of doing it this quickly.

If we do another stage of consultation, we could,

but you will then add further risk in terms of the timetable.

Thank you.

So I was going to ask about risk.

You've answered it.

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 1:11:49

Effectively, if I'm correct, you're saying you're aware that

there's risk, you think that the risk is worth taking

under the circumstances?

Officer - 1:12:03

Yes, that's correct because I think at the moment we don't have any choice.

In the matter, the government has really not given local authorities any choice in terms of progressing local plans.

They've said local plans should still be progressed, you know, despite

de -relution. They have given us one,

like we only have one set of regulations in terms of submitting the planets at the moment,

which is on December 2026.

So we're waiting to see the new regulations, which

may provide another avenue, particularly, for example,

if government reorganization is delayed.

I've said that in the report.

But really, at the moment, we only have one strategy.

Because at the moment, we don't have a five -year supply.

We'll be getting lots of speculative development,

not in the places where we want it.

So this is really our only opportunity

to really correct that as much as we can.

Last question.

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 1:13:00

Thank you for all of that.

And there was a lot of conversation

about garden villages and garden towns.

And the advantage of that is a design concept and the fact

that it's well supported by it nationally and so on.

But then there was remarks made that the trouble with garden

villages and garden towns is they take a very long time

to implement and we don't have a long time. Are we effectively saying that that option

is taken off the table for us given the timeline that we have to work with or is it still on

the table please?

Officer - 1:13:36

So that is still on the table but it's highly unlikely that a garden town or garden village

would contribute towards our five year supply so it's likely because of the time it takes

to sort of, if you like, sort a big garden town or garden village that that will be pushed

towards the end of the plan period because everything that has to be, you know, sorted.

You can just do it very high level.

Thank you. I'll be supporting it, I think.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:14:03

Well, thank you for that. Before we go, it's Councillor Cunningham next. I just wanted

to make an observation on Moreton Working Group. I was aware of a date for it. I think

a lot of other people, I think Councillor Cunningham will also. And so just to tidy

up on this I think it would be a good idea that at least that working group or

those people in Moreton were communicated with and explained what it

is because it is that it is a very hot topic around there and I was just going

to say in Middleton where we've also got it's a much smaller place but the amount

of housing on the outline thing is huge I mean we have got four developments I

think yes but of a nod over there and they're large we've got the they want

the residents are wanting to get together on Friday night, there is a lot of anxiety

about these things. So I just want to put those out there. Councillor Cunningham can

also come back on Morton because I think he's involved with that too.

Councillor David Cunningham - 1:14:57

Thank you, Madam Chair. As far as Morton is concerned, yes, I am a member of the group.

There was a date in the diary. I think there was diary confusion, so it didn't happen.

I think what's more important really is that there seemed to be a lack of communication

just around what was happening with it.

So that's something to go back to Matt with, I'm sure.

My question really, Joe, is about from the local plan timeline pages, the broad location

study has been done, Matt?

Officer - 1:15:39

It's in progress. We're expecting it by sort of August time.

Councillor David Cunningham - 1:15:42

Okay, so we're already nearly slipping then, right?

Because dependent evidence number two, which will rely I'm sure on the broad location study,

will kick off the Reg 18, which will be September, October.

the six weeks for that, you're going to get a lot of feedback.

I can tell you this right now. I understand you're going to use AI.

You'll probably need to use Big Blue to go through the amount of information you're going to get.

Then you're going to go into the Reg 9, depending on what comes out of the Reg 18.

Dependent Evidence Number 4 will come in, the transport study, the transport modelling,

where you're reliant on other people.

You're then going to the Reg 19 consultation sign off,

which is reliant on somebody else signing it off.

I'm imagining, yep, us, fine.

We don't mind coming down here, it's only 500 miles of me.

And then the Reg 19 consultation again for six weeks,

May, June next year, again, you're going to be inundated.

So my question is this, are two extra people going to be enough?

Because I don't think they are.

I don't think the team that you're putting together is going to be big enough.

And I think if you want to get this done, and I think it has to be done, I don't think

we have any choice.

I was never a massive fan of running the parallels, but that's walked under the bridge.

In actual fact, now it's come and helped us out because we have got a lot of the work

done, so that's all great.

But in terms of getting all of these things lined up, really looked at, and they need

to be really looked at in order to satisfy powers and that you've done your due diligence,

I'd ask for big, I'd ask for more people.

I would ask, this is going to end up being, because planning I can tell you, is the most

important topic for residents in the district, flat out.

They might moan about dog poo bins, but the real thing that gets their goat is the fact

that they think they're going to get 10 ,000 houses next to them.

Whether it's true or not is not the point.

What it does is incense people.

They become, in my opinion, sometimes a little bit erratic about it.

So I would say if you want a recommendation from us

for additional resources for what you're already asking for,

I would personally back that up.

Thank you, Councillor Cunnion.

Officer - 1:18:16

So just in regard to the timetable,

so the broad locations study, I mean, Matt said it's due August,

but it's sort of due with the principal officer is on target

for it to be ready in July, but it kind of leads into August

because it goes to then have an integrated impact assessment

done.

So that follows on, if you like, from the broad locations study,

that's the habitat regulation assessment,

sustainability appraisal assessment.

So they're lined up, the consultant's there

to do that piece of work so that we have all

of our Regulation 18 consultation ready

to provide to members in September.

And we're currently working

on a communications plan in that regard.

The transport modelling should be starting imminently.

We're just looking at the procurement of that at the moment.

So although it says, you know, it starts in January,

it's going to be starting ASAP.

But what it does need is, for example, the sites.

So, it's kind of the evolution of the sites, if you like, and all the evidence to feed

into that.

But it's an ongoing iterative process.

The thing that really comes at the end is the viability assessment.

And that is, once you have all your evidence in place, you can obviously look at everything

that's required to see if your plan is viable.

So that is, again, we're already feeding in the development

management policies that are ready

into the viability assessment.

So again, they're all kind of iterative.

I know they say they're dependent,

but everything's kind of moving along, if you like,

and starting at a certain stage,

but it still needs other things to finalize.

Councillor David Cunningham - 1:20:06

Sorry, but the reality is that until you decide on the sites,

You don't know where to send the guy to look for the back boxes.

You don't know where to send the guy to look at how much car parking there is.

So it's iterative in terms of it needs to know where to go and do the work and you haven't

yet chosen where you're going to do the work.

So that piece at the beginning is probably the key aspect of all of this.

Officer - 1:20:28

I'm going to ask Matt to come in here.

Yeah.

We're working towards getting a short list of sites that we're going to recommend for

the further assessment.

We've done these call for sites campaigns and we start off with this big massive ...

60%.

Well it's all across the district.

We've got to get it down to the sites that we think are deliverable and developable and

then we'll be putting those into the transport modelling, the flood risk assessment, the

infrastructure delivery plan to work out what's required from those sites.

And yeah, it may be that through that process it turns out that some of the sites, you know,

the viability assessment is another one. It might be that some of the sites aren't viable

for development and then they need to drop out. So it's yeah, we need to get to that point pretty quickly where

we have that short list of sites that we then go on and further assess.

But yeah, up until the point where we have our Reg 19 consultation, it is still an iterative

process where we're constantly just refining it and using the evidence to get that Reg

19 draft plan together.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:21:44

And are you resourced enough for that?

Councillor David Cunningham - 1:21:47

I mean this is the crux of the matter.

If you want ONS to support you on this, and I think we all agree that we want the local

plan to get done because none of us want cowboys putting 50 houses up where they like. If you

need someone to help you get to that point where you have got it narrowed down and you

can start to do the work, now's when to ask Juliet, now's when to twist David Stanley's

arm and I'll happily do it for you.

David Stanley.

Councillor Juliet Layton - 1:22:13

I'll hold you to that David. Again, David versus David rather than David versus Goliath.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:22:22

David Stanley himself that David would like to come in.

My arms are already aching from being twisted verbally.

David Stanley, Deputy CEO - 1:22:28

Paragraph 6 .11 of the report, and I've got the cabinet version here so I can't give you the page number.

Within the financial implications it sets out that as part of the budget setting process I'll be identifying one -off reserves to hold as a contingency.

I think what I'm hearing from over in scrutiny members is that the budget or the resource

plan that's in front of you doesn't seem adequate enough to give you assurance that it will

be delivered on time with the amount of correspondence you're going to get at each and every stage.

I would suggest, I think as part of any recommendation you may want to consider, is pressing upon

to fully consider that as part of the budget setting process and almost saying that's the

priority.

I think there's a role there for cabinet to determine what maybe an upper limit to that

resource ask might be because we could end up writing several blank checks just to get

the local plan done.

So I think what I'm hearing is you want the assurance that no request for additional resources

that Joe and the team may make will fall on deaf ears, but clearly there will be a limit

to the amount of additional resources we might be able to find. What we don't want to do

is increase the ongoing revenue costs of the planning service in its current set up. But

also we don't want those individuals who are working on planning application and other

aspect of the infrastructure and the forward plan to be pulled off to sort the local plan

out so you need to keep both BAU going and you need to get the local plan delivered by

December 2026. That might be a significant resource ask but I think that from what I'm

hearing here is the absolute priority that you're saying as members of this committee.

Councillor David Cunningham - 1:24:28

All I would add then just very lastly is that I would recommend front loading this a little

bit because it seems to me that we need to get it to a certain stage, PDQ, in order to

be able to get the rest of it done.

So if you need to front load that a little bit, maybe that's part of the recommendation.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:24:47

Thank you.

I'm just going to have two comments of mine, then I want to go and talk to Councillor Harris

or all of us about the recommendations that we want to put forward.

I know that we've been going for almost an hour and a half, but we actually, the next

The pass is not hopefully quite so long, and we do have,

it is a three -hour meeting, and we didn't actually,

we sort of put in two hours.

So I'm very happy that we're actually really going in depth

into this, that that is exactly what we should be doing.

I just thought it was very interesting on pages 36 and 37,

which make clear the risk assessment.

And two items stand out.

Consultants often being slow in the production of evidence,

which is very difficult, and what we can do to stop that.

And the issues with major infrastructure to progress the

housing sites.

And again, this is something which is not immediately within

our control, but what can we do to mediate those

sort of problems?

Councillor Juliet Layton - 1:25:47

We are already talking to consultants and I think we are already, actually I'm going

Officer - 1:25:58

to give it to Jo. Yes, so there's a number of things we're doing. I mean as I say

we've got the project manager that we're looking to get full -time which will just

help with officers chasing up consultants

and making sure they're on top of the timetable.

I mean, to be fair, there are consultants

that we work with again, and we know from other fields,

so we know certain consultants who are a bit slow,

shall we say.

So we're looking to give them certain deadlines

to make sure they come in on time.

And then we're also, yeah, sorry.

Yeah, with regards to infrastructure,

we've already started engaging with our infrastructure providers.

I know Helen's being in touch with the water companies.

So, you know, again, it's about being in touch,

the electricity companies are being in touch with us as well

because they're setting their plans.

So, you know, they are aware of what we're doing.

So we will keep on with that engagement.

Well, no, thank you for that.

I'm sure you are, but it does always need relentless pushing

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:27:20

and keeping up to date with it because it's no good having

a whole lot of houses and they haven't got water.

And certainly if the sewage isn't good enough.

Can I just add a little bit?

Councillor Juliet Layton - 1:27:32

We've used the name Helen and that's Helen Martin who is our Director of Communities and Place, which is a new role.

So this is somebody new which might alleviate some fears.

We have got somebody else working on this and working Gloucestershire wide on infrastructure and communicating with, as Jo said, the water companies, etc.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:27:59

We look forward to meeting her in due course and I think that would be great.

My other thing is just a real techie problem, not really techie.

I read in the sort of professional house building press that there's becoming a problem actually finding enough housing associations to take on the affordable or social housing elements

and quite a lot of developments elsewhere in the country have,

they've gone up there and they just can't find

a housing association to get involved with it.

What is the risk of that and what happens in those circumstances?

Because we want to deliver this affordable and social housing.

But obviously with so much new housing going on around the country,

these housing associations are having to take on

a lot more than they had actually expected.

They haven't necessarily got the resources or the finances to do that.

What happens in those circumstances?

Councillor Juliet Layton - 1:28:55

From what I know, and I will pass this over as well,

but we have got good housing providers, registered providers that have never let us down actually,

who work with us, meet regularly with us.

It's not just one company.

We've got various ones that we are in a lot of communication with,

I don't think we are at risk, but I will pass that on.

See if, Jo, you've heard anything different.

Officer - 1:29:27

So, no, I haven't heard anything different.

I know it has been a problem in other areas I've worked,

but here I was, you know, it was a good surprise to learn

that it's not a problem here.

I understand the government's announced a new,

larger $11 .5 billion affordable homes programme,

including funding for social rent, supported housing and a renewed commitment for delivering homes using modern methods of construction.

So I imagine that will go towards the housing association.

That's 39 million, isn't it, that they offer?

Not sure, is that right?

Councillor Juliet Layton - 1:30:11

It's 39 billion and I'm not sure how much we're getting of that but our

housing team are very aware of it and are looking into it. No one's just

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:30:22

conscious that if you don't get it then developers start doing exactly what

Councillor Harris was alluding to that they they change the amount of housing

stock which goes into that and that is a concern.

Now, on that note, well, first of all,

I wanted to just say whether we wanted to vote,

or should we be voting on the options on page 22 and 24,

and that is whether we join with other Gloucester planning

authorities doing our local plan review in tandem with Gloucester

strategic plan, await new regulations,

or not undertaking the plan update.

I think what we're looking at here is the partial update, emerging the two ongoing local

plans, partial update of the adopted cultural district local plan and the development strategy

and site allocations plan.

And then if we've got that, that is that, if this is approved by council, cabinet resolves

two and we do other things which are listed there. Sorry I agree with that but

it does say there's alternative options and on page 22 and 23 I was just asking

whether we were going to be looking at that. I think from our point of

Councillor Joe Harris - 1:31:42

view we're

all going to get an opportunity to have a say on this because it's going to come

to full chaos isn't it so as a scrutiny committee may I suggest that perhaps the

thing for us to do is put forward any comments or recommendations that we have

on the item as a whole that can then be considered by cabinet and then of course

by full council and I'm sure we've got members here who can put the

committee's view when it comes to full council or indeed cabinet if so be so I

think you know rather than forming a view on whether or not this is the right

thing to do I think we should probably just take our comments. I agree

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:32:19

it was it

was it was four options there's only one option you take which is number one

which I think was probably what was we're going to be doing I wanted to go

through now for these these recommendations

Councillor Joe Harris - 1:32:36

Councillor Harris did you want to formulate your questions yes I put a

form of words together I think before I just put it you know just just a comment

more than anything because you know this is clearly a mad situation that we're in

isn't it we've got a government who are going to radically alter the structures

of local government, as a local authority it's very unlikely we're going to exist in

just a few years' time, yet there is still this requirement for local authorities to

spend time, money, effort, and frankly a lot of goodwill on a local plan process, which

if we're being honest might not even see the light of day in a few years' time.

So we're in a completely mad situation because of that.

And we're also in a mad situation because we've got a housing target which, you know, let's be honest, some bureaucrat in the, I hate that word, some official in MHCLG has, you know, looked at a spreadsheet and decided we haven't taken enough housing without taking any view as to the local factors.

In our case, the fact that 80 % of the district is A, O and B and we can't build on it.

So, you know, I think the only cowboys I can see so far are the ones in MHCLG.

And I think actually the wider point is that I don't think the government really care about the predicament we're in as a district.

At the end of the day, if we don't have a five -year housing land supply, if we don't have a local plan,

then quite frankly the supply of housing increases and for them that's a good thing because they can say,

well under our watch we've delivered X number of homes. So you know I think the

government in some respects are being a bit disingenuous on this but you know

that's by the by. To our colleagues here who work in the planning team I

think actually you know you do a fantastic job and I know it's pretty

tough and I know that we can ask some quite probing questions there but you

know I want to be clear that we really appreciate all the work you do and the

work that you're going to do and the stress that you're going to be under and

To quote my Gen Z cousin, we need to protect you at all costs,

I would say.

So, you know, I honestly think that's really,

really important.

And, you know, the reason I say that is we have to get the

communications right here, and that's the thing I've heard most

more than anything is around communications and engagement

in this process.

You know, I'd strip this down.

This is about hearts and minds, isn't it?

Politicians do the heart stuff.

They do the arguments, why we need to be doing this,

and our fab officers do the mind, how we're going to do it, how we're going to roll that out.

And I think this needs to be reflected in the process.

We need to learn from previous experiences.

If I can be blunt and put it in quite blunt language, I think we've been crap at the heart side of things.

We haven't really spelt out what the imperative is, why this is happening, a lot of the background.

So the first thing that residents here is when we turn

up going we're looking at building 5 ,000 houses in your

backyard, you know, well to be honest, I'd be pretty shocked

if you know, that's the first the first that I've heard.

So I think it's really important that we recognize that and we

have to start laying the groundwork now though, not in

not when we suddenly appear in a village hall somewhere a town

hall and we're suddenly saying, you know, tell us what you

think of all these houses because I think you know that never goes down well

and honestly I don't think councils do this very well anywhere in my experience

so I think there's an opportunity for us to take a bit of a lead on this we have

a fantastic communications team I've cashed in the political chance you'll

remember at the budget when we're trying to put more resource into communications

so I think it's absolutely critical that we back that confidence that we've got

in our comms team and for me it's about having a local plan process which gives

Matt and his team, the ability to respond, to lead,

and to adapt to the very many representations and challenges

that we're going to have.

And ultimately, the benefit of doing that is it frees our

planning officers up to do their job, which is to focus on policy,

develop policy, not be responding to so many bits

of correspondence, which, you know, Matt, I salute you.

I'm surprised you're not gray, because the amount of

correspondence that you've had over the past couple of years

is incredible.

So, for me, you know, the recommendation is that

we're requesting to cabinet that they commit to a publicly

available communications and engagement strategy

for both Regulation 18 and Regulation 19 consultations.

In particular, I think we want to understand what methods

will be used, so whether that's digital, in -person, target.

Don't worry about writing this down, Anjana.

I've got it written down.

I think that we've got, I think we need clear stakeholder

mapping, so we need to understand how we're going

to reach particular groups, how we talk to harder to reach

groups, because, you know, somebody mentioned we get

a lot of noise during these things.

Well, let's cut through some of that noise and really

speak to people this is going to impact.

I want to understand how that's going to be resourced,

and I think that's just as critical as how much money

we're spending on the overall thing.

How much we're spending on the engagement and the

communications on this is important as well, making

sure that Matt and his team have the resource.

If that's an extra member of staff, so be it.

If that's money for, you know, having a stool in the village,

so be it.

If it's money for Facebook ads, so be it.

I think we need an understanding of how AI summaries will be

verified and, you know, validated,

because I think when we've done this before,

we've just got a big spreadsheet full of comments and,

you know, what you do with that, I don't know.

I also think the other point of this is how this council is going to lobby the government

On this issue both in terms of how we square the fact that we've got 80 %

AOMB and we've got a housing target of over a thousand a year. So I actually think there's a public affairs function

We need to carry out here, which is basically laying out the facts to the government and saying this is not acceptable

Appreciate we're doing that a little bit through the local plan process

but actually I come back to this is about hearts and minds.

Ultimately it's politicians and ministers that decide this.

We have to talk in language that they understand.

So that's around communications and engagement.

I also think consideration should probably be given,

because these are the other groups who are going to,

you know, be fairly vocal,

how we engage parish and town councils.

So whether that's through our town

and parish council forum that we have,

or whether this is a separate meeting or group

that we set up with some representatives from town and parish councils, because they're

the other key stakeholders in this and they're the people that can make our life a pain in

the arse if we're not consulting with them and we're not getting it right.

So yes, so Angela, I think you've got the headlines here.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:39:44

So we've got those two recommendations, which we can go into detail.

I'm just going to go through all the recommendations first, and then if we want to then flesh out

each one.

So Councillor Jackson has been my right -hand man, and that actually is completely right.

Oh, oh, so, no, he's made notes of who's got what.

It's Councillor Watson, your recommendation.

I think Joe called it that and that outreach into our...

Oh, right, so it was all about comms, basically.

Better, yes, fantastic.

OK.

It's Councillor Jenkinson's own recommendation.

I've got two...

Sorry.

I've got two recommendations.

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 1:40:30

The first is based, I think is in line with what we've already been hearing.

It's based on the premise that if I take a figure of a million pounds and say which would be more valuable

when we go into a new devolved organisation, which would be more valuable to transfer at that point,

a district with an area plan or a million pounds

the answer will be the area plan and and

And it isn't necessarily going to stop at 1 million. It would be still true at one and a quarter or one and a half million

Obviously we do have to preserve

we have to stay solvent and I'm

We have people on the overview and scrutiny committee who are very careful about

finances and I am too so I'm not in the I'm not talking about being wasteful

but given that situation my first recommendation is that we recommend

cabinet to challenge the proposed resources and to consider allocating

further resources in order to meet the range of challenges and problems that we

are likely to have.

There could be two levels of reserve,

something that we agree now and some kind

of further contingency.

But I can imagine that David Stanley would

be able to advise on that point.

For the moment, my first recommendation

is that we ask cabinet to challenge

whether sufficient finances have been requested

for the necessary activities that have to happen.

The second is to make sure that that also includes ensuring that

there are sufficient resources to continue to look after the

other aspects of area planning, of local planning,

applications.

In the meantime, we will have continued major applications

coming forward that we have to deal with that will need

resources, and we have a history of compliance issues.

My own house was built and is part of an estate 20 years ago.

We still have unadopted sewage and water courses in that estate from 20 years ago.

We still have a situation where it was approved right next door to an industrial estate, so

called, which everybody calls a business park, where it has been allowed to make noise next

to neighbours. Under those circumstances, it's really important. My point is that decisions

made now will affect people for 20 years. You can take 500 years to develop a village

and lose it in one year. So it's really important that we continue to manage the business as

as usual, and so my second recommendation is that we ask

Cabinet to ensure that the planning and compliance team

is going to remain sufficient to take care of the business

as usual, including the additional workload that's

likely to come through in the meantime.

I hope you can support that.

Thank you.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:44:03

Claire, Councillor Turner, you come now.

Councillor Clare Turner - 1:44:07

I just wanted to make a comment on the resourcing issue,

because the wording at the moment for the cabinet papers is that the cabinet resolves

to invest in additional resources and accelerate the delivery of the local plan to enable that

deadline to be hit. It doesn't actually specify what level of resources we are saying, so

I don't know to what extent we need to say. I think we are approving the mandate to add

additional resources and we haven't we're not approving a specific budget

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:44:41

bigger yes well thank you for that comment and I think David Stanley's

going to come and clarify yeah in terms of the budget so the way it's been set

David Stanley, Deputy CEO - 1:44:49

in the report is that's pre -existing resources that have already been

approved by the council through the annual budget setting process so mindful

that if cabinet are being recommended to put an additional amount in that's

outside the budget policy framework, which becomes a Council decision, which is why paragraph

6 .11 was worded in such a way to give me the instruction to find more, and then that will

come through as part of the regular budget papers to Council in February 2026.

Now I appreciate comments from Councillor Cunningham about front -loading some of that,

so we might need to consider that earlier as part of, in all likelihood, the October

cycle where a budget strategy and MTS update report will come in front of

cabinet that could have as part of any decision a recommendation to council on

a very specific item if that's where members are minded to go with the local

plan resourcing issue.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:45:57

Thank you I would like to have other people's comments on this but to me it

seems like a good idea that we should at least build in that that could be looked at and

should be because we really don't want to lose this local plan. I think that's everybody

here on this committee, it is vital that we get this vote and I'm not saying at any cost

but we have got to do it at speed which is quite a challenge in itself and we have got

to sometimes for that we need extra personnel, people and other resources to make it happen

I don't know how would we like to have that worded.

Angela Claridge - 1:46:40

Chair, if I can help. So would it help if I captured all of the recommendations as I've heard them?

Because there were several from Councillor Harris and several from Councillor Jenkinson.

I did, there was quite a lot from York South, Councillor Harris. And you're going to email, thank you.

What I have captured is I think if I am hearing, but obviously you will vote, that you are

largely in support of the recommendations set out in the report.

In addition to that, that you wish to request recommendations on page 5, moving on to page

In addition, the ONS would like to request cabinet commit to a publicly available content

engagement strategy.

As part of that strategy, that includes how to access hard to reach groups, those that

don't typically respond.

That strategy sets out how the plan will be resourced.

In addition, how AI summaries will be validated.

In other words, it is not just a spreadsheet, I think was the comment that was made.

And also as part of that strategy, how CDC will lobby government.

I know you worded it a little bit longer than that.

Yes.

And what methods will be used to clear state problem mapping?

Yeah.

How do we resource?

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:48:09

So is everybody on this committee happy with this comms?

It obviously needs a little tidying up, but in principle you would be happy to put that

recommendation through to cabinet.

We are not going to vote on each one.

Hopefully we are going to be unanimous and we vote on the lot together.

So that's number one.

So thank you, chairs.

Angela Claridge - 1:48:35

So picking up Councillor Jenkins and the vice chairs' points.

So that this committee recommends that cabinet challenge the proposed revenue

the proposed resources allocated to the local plan ie is it sufficient to

consider further resource to meet the anticipated challenges that have been

articulated here today and that following on from some Councillor Jenkins's point

with support from from David Stanley that ensuring that sufficient resources

are in place to continue progressing the planning activities that are business as

So for example, management and planning applications, enforcement work, and that David helpfully

helped with that recommendation to say that the October budget cycle cabinet, sorry, a

council could consider whether those resources are available.

So I hopefully, Chair, I captured the Vice Chair's comments and wove in that October

timeline.

That's excellent.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:49:30

And then there was my recommendation right at the beginning, almost two hours ago, that

the local plan oversight board reports to O &S as well as cabinet so that we

have got transparency and things on what you're saying. I don't think needs to be

long and complicated but I just think we need to be keeping in touch with that.

Angela Claridge - 1:49:54

Agreed chair so I've captured that was your very first point you're right I've

just written down periodic I don't know if you have a view about regular updates

or perhaps when there's an update and something to share with this committee

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:50:11

Was there anything else that anybody wanted to add? So our monitoring officer, Angela,

will be circulating all these tomorrow but we ought to vote on them today. It is very

difficult to get them put together in a lovely, beautiful package and voted on as such. But

in principle, are you all happy with those? And if so, could I have a proposer and then

seconder? You choose. They did all go up.

And then could we all vote on those please?

Councillor Joe Harris - 1:50:57

Well thank you. Having been the leader of the council it always helps if and

appreciate short notice. It does always help when you have representatives from an ONS, you know,

whether it's the chair or a member to just maybe talk to that item.

Sometimes you can't always get the spirit of the debate when it's on a quite, you know,

functional piece of paper in front of you. So, you know,

I'm not saying you come all the way down for a third time this week,

but it might be useful if we could coordinate because I certainly find that, you know,

having been the leader if you've got people there to speak to that item it

does slightly help illuminate the context of the discussion.

Councillor Joe Harris - 1:51:38

I do not want to be the ghost of Christmas past all right.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:51:43

In principle I did want to I'm actually got to be talking to our rotary that evening but

maybe I can they're rather keen I should be there. I am a member and haven't been

for enough meetings, but we'll talk through that.

It is a busy schedule, isn't it?

That's a good point.

But I do think it's a good point,

and it's something that I haven't done enough of,

and it is actually part of it.

You were holding a message.

I could do it.

We'll perhaps talk about it, Joe.

So thank you.

And thanks for everybody who's been involved.

This has been a really illuminating discussion.

I hope it's been helpful to everyone concerned.

It's been certainly nice to meet you

and to meet others of the planning

and a very good map to come along as well.

Both mats.

Hello, both mats.

And now could we go on to the next item,

which is the PAS hearing view?

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:52:40

I think we need a comfort break, so could we actually

vote to close the meeting for 10 minutes and come back?

Thank you.

Thank you for that.

8 PAS Peer Review and Action Plan

Right, well, welcome back, everyone.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:53:03

The next topic is the PAS, Peer Review and Action Plan.

We have Harrison Boley here to support Juliet Leighton, the cabinet minister.

Minister.

Well, cabinet member.

Sorry, minister.

Other people have made those sort of errors.

But so who of you would like to introduce this and talk to it?

Thank you.

I'm happy to do that.

Thank you very much.

Councillor Juliet Layton - 1:53:33

Yeah, PAS report, Planning Advisory Service,

is what that stands for.

And what we're asking is your recommendations before it goes

to Cabinet on Thursday, the 10th, and Cabinet will be asked

to endorse the report and the accompanying action plan

and also publish on the website.

So this report, we invited the Planning Advisory Service

to come and run a planning service peer challenge

over the 25th and 27th of March.

So it's three quite intense days for quite a number of people,

which is all set out anyway in the report.

And it was to assess the strengths

within the planning department

and identify areas of improvement.

And members, I think when they read this,

will be able to probably identify both strengths

and some of our weaknesses,

because as members we have engaged with planning

in all the district and lots of our casework

and we bring planning applications to committee.

So I think all members are very aware of planning

and some of the things that have happened in planning

in the past, things like COVID and separate working.

We've had interim agency people coming in

and running as directors, as managers,

and we have overcome an awful lot in the past years.

also nearly in government, you know, with the government

recommendations for us because of lack of planning

determination quickly.

And we got out of that and we were okay.

That was data reporting wasn't very good on that.

And we also moved the planning team from Publica into CDC,

which is great.

So a lot of things have happened.

There's been, which is turmoil, actually.

Even their workspaces got changed between COVID and coming.

Suddenly, it was all open plan.

So, there's been an awful lot of movement in the planning department.

And I think this report actually is very, very positive in how much we've achieved.

We had, as the briefing to all members was given by the past members that were here,

we had, Geri Lapointe had only just joined us, so she was, it was like her first day

virtually.

We had the Assistant Director of, she was the Assistant Director of Planning Services

and Helen Martin, who is our Director of Communities and Place, had come in specially to hear about

this and well as I said Joe I don't think you were here for that actually

where you've just lately arrived. So we've got a new team running our

department now so we're getting so everything is really feels like it's

fitting into place. I think Jerry's and Helen's report is very good I really

appreciate the action plan which sets out when we're doing things and how

we're doing another timeline for you to look at again I guess which is possibly

hopefully less onerous than the local plan one but I mean I'm very impressed

with the support and I think the action plan on page 55 can be met because we've

got such a strong and stable team in DiEM now and that's all I have to say

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:57:26

really thank you and at this point no only to say I was only drafted into this

Officer - 1:57:29

yesterday afternoon so please excuse me if I'm scrambling around the page to try

to find bits if you're referring to it thank you always that's a reminder where

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:57:37

possible if people can give the page numbers it does make it easier so I

haven't got anybody down here the up suddenly there's a lot of hands up so I

Councillor Michael Vann - 1:57:52

Thank you. What I'd just like to do at the outset, possibly come back a bit later.

Main point, page 44, number 2. Go now please to page 16, 4 to 19 of the PS report.

CDC has demonstrated its ability to successfully implement local plan policies,

establishing a solid foundation for the future. So the external view recently

gives one confidence that the massive job for the local plan is going to be

performed. That's all I've got to say.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:58:38

Thank you. It was a lovely endorsement but I need a thank you for that.

We have got Councillor Turner.

Thank you. As someone who loves a good to do list, I really liked the action plan.

Councillor Clare Turner - 1:58:50

But it left me with a couple of questions. First of all, it doesn't detail who has ownership of each element.

Is there another version that sort of has that level of detail to it?

And secondly, it is an impressive to do list, but how is that all going to happen on top of business as usual?

How is that progress going to be monitored?

Perhaps it's a recommendation that we revisit it in a year's time to see what's happened

and so on.

Officer - 1:59:24

In terms of who takes ownership, it will naturally fall into a few different categories.

There's a few different heads of service that will naturally cover a few.

I take the development management enforcement, so I will naturally take those points.

but with the oversight of Geraldine and Helen,

who will obviously have oversight of the entire project.

The time scales, I think, are in some cases ambitious,

in some cases they are quite realistic in a lot of the work.

And I think a lot of the outcomes of the PAS review

are probably things we already knew,

but it was useful to have that oversight from an external body

who would come in and effectively give us a report

and a bit of detail and a bit of thoroughness

with an outside pair of eyes.

So there is work that's already been going on in the background

for quite some time.

So certain bits and pieces were already well done.

I'd say you'll see there's a certain June and July targets,

which we've already met or are meeting.

And what was the third question?

Sorry, I just.

How will it be monitored and sort of how will progress

be evaluated against the action plan?

Yeah, so the action plan is written

to be an iterative document.

It will be a living document effectively.

So we will periodically come back to it and reflect on it.

I believe in the report, it does recommend towards the end

And having oversight, I will just double check.

There's an element, there is a requirement for periodic reviews,

effectively, sorry, that is what I'm trying to find.

Not as well, but make sure it's a,

a recovery as it serves the benefit of us.

Perfect. Yeah, so effectively we will look to have periodic reviews

and feedback to Juliet as our portfolio holder,

but also an annual review with the planning committee,

I believe is what is recommended.

So that we will report back on those findings.

And I think the intention will, there should be a lot

of good news stories in this.

And we want to shout about them

and show everybody what's going well

and how we're meeting those targets.

So there will be an element of positive comments

which we'll look to make the most of, whether it's

on the portal or more publicly than that.

I don't think you want to add to that.

Well, what I was going to say, as I said,

Councillor Juliet Layton - 2:01:23

Joey had only just started within days.

And I'd had a meeting with her prior to that.

And the things that we were talking about we wanted

to see that if you haven't been seeing, you know,

we all know who the agency guys we had here,

and they did lots of really important work,

and a lot of sorting out and sifting throughs,

and lots of that.

But things like, for example, the KPIs,

I wasn't getting any of that.

And so I'd had conversations with Geri

before we'd even begun to see what any report was going to say.

So she'd already got these things in place in her head

as to what she wanted to do.

So I feel pretty confident that we'll be able to keep this.

And I am getting lots of meetings with her as well.

So I can report back to cabinet or council or whatever.

Can I also just add one thing that's just sprung to mind?

Officer - 2:02:14

Obviously a significant part of the work will be the corporate

plan feeding into a service plan.

That service plan will generate KPIs that will feed into what we

believe sort of visioning as team plans or sub -service plans,

which then will feed down into individual officer plans,

which then feed into appraisals.

So I think the plan is that there is periodic reviews

of each of those documents that will be reported

wherever they may need to be reported to.

But there is this constant iterative process

that's going on with these service plans.

It isn't just a we'll generate them,

put them somewhere and try and follow them.

They will be learned from, they'll be reviewed,

and they will be periodically updated

as and where they need to be.

I'll come back again on that

because you mentioned corporate plan,

Councillor Juliet Layton - 2:02:52

which is really important.

And I think there was a lack of understanding

amongst officers actually what our drive and ambition for the council was.

You're now having more regular meetings and now because we've got people coming

into the office a lot, they're you know very often you come in here on a

Tuesday afternoon I think once a month and you're all in here aren't you? So

information gets out to everybody because even though we might have a

cabinet meeting in here and it's filmed and it's everywhere and then we have

Council it's the same and the reports go out not everything gets filtered down to

the people who are actually doing the work to make sure that you know what

we're asking for is is happening so that that's definitely a much better place now.

Thank you for that and actually just following up from our council Turner

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:03:45

whether we might actually put a recommendation that we would that you

would come back there's nothing like um coming back and having to explain or

update in a year's time, or actually we were just suggesting

Angeline maybe about March.

It just, it does, I don't know, it is effective, isn't it,

in getting people to do this.

I don't want to put more work on you.

It's just basically on a report back.

It's not trying to do a huge thing.

So that's our pocket for now, and we'll talk about it later.

I've got Councillor Cunningham and then Councillor Harris.

Councillor Joe Harris - 2:04:26

Can I ask around enforcement because it does seem to be this, it's like a Catherine wheel

isn't it, that's come off the shed and it's just constantly spinning around and we never

seem to be able to grab hold of it.

We seem to get staff who then, to be honest, go off and get so stressed and then we get

staff and I think the same happens to them to be honest. So you know it is one of those

areas isn't it that you know can we actually win? I guess what I'm asking is what does

good enforcement look like and what does it look like in the context of the Cotswolds

where we get so many issues raised and a lot of them you know being honest even if we had

a fully staffed enforcement team we're not going to be doing a lot of that are we because

they're not major or you know we didn't find a planning agreement so maybe

Harrison this is one for you in your your eyes what does a good what is a good

and robust planning enforcement team look like and yeah yeah what does it

look like it was just talk to that if you can let us be interested yeah there's

Officer - 2:05:43

a few strands that we really take it through it will start with we have our

local enforcement plan but it's not going to work it was adopted in 2018 was

adopted in 2022 but hasn't been anything since then.

It sets some fairly ambitious targets

in terms of response time, prioritization of cases.

It fundamentally needs an update.

That's our opportunity, in my view,

to set realistic expectations, to start that comms work

with members of the public as well as the first document

they should be seeing when they come into our enforcement

process, but also to set effectively

what are the cases we will, they're top priority.

As soon as they come in, they jump the list.

They are put into a prioritised list somewhere else and they are the ones we take forward.

The median priority that we will work on, but they fall a little below the higher priority.

And then a lower priority category, we may just close instantly.

It will then feed into what we're picturing and what comes into again what our enforcement

team looks like is processes.

Our processes need massive, I was about to say updating, they need overhauling.

I still have principal enforcement officers that do their own admin work because that's

just how things are done.

they still take it in turns to monitor the inbox on a daily

basis, partly because that's just how we, it's been

necessity, that's who we've had in the role and they've had to

do it, but it doesn't really function very well, which again

I think is they're not prioritizing and focusing their

time where it's most effective, effectively.

So part of it will be improving our systems, that will be using

IT systems to improve the way we do things.

It'll involve a triaging process, which I think has got

the first point of contact, that 10 -day mark where you're looking at a case, you're prioritising it,

you're closing the stuff you don't need to do, and communicating with the applicant or the

complainer in terms of what the next steps of the process is. It's not a promise that it's going to

be quick, it often isn't with enforcement. I think we tend to aim for six months as a reasonable

turnaround where there's minimal action needed, it will be longer for bigger cases. But if we can set

that out, say with the enforcement plan, through proper processes, and then a bit of a better

I don't necessarily know if it needs more people.

That's something we need to look at in terms of caseloads, output per officer and the cases

we get in and that will feed into part of the work we need to do.

But it needs to be better structured with a principal, senior officer, assistant, clear

defined roles in each one of those.

Probably some admin support.

Again, one of the challenges we have is all admin functions sit within public, which means

we don't have any of our own admin functions.

So it's where that kind of, where those lines are drawn effectively.

There is a really good enforcement team in here, in my view.

We just need to get an enforcement plan in place, that's the starting point, and that

should feed into everything else.

The process is IT and hopefully a fully staffed team.

We've currently held off on permanent recruitment.

We've got agency staffing until the end of November.

As far as I'm aware, end of November is a cut off.

The budget won't stretch to beyond that because agency staff do cost more.

But that is quite useful in a way because it's clearly we need to aim for end of November

as a minimum, to have job adverts and hopefully people starting the roles with

a properly structured, properly resourced team, with an enforcement plan that I've

already started working on, that's already working on in the background, and

we can start to get these processes going. It just takes a bit of time and a

bit of focus and unfortunately when we're limited on resourcing already it's

sort of hard to get those things moving but it's there. Thank you, that's really

Councillor Joe Harris - 2:09:04

handy. A couple more if I may. It was interesting on committing to a developers

forum which I think is really interesting because I remember going

on behalf of the council to like a breakfast thing with developers and like

the horror on light some of our planners face when I asked for a bit of a brief

was really interesting so it's interesting that as a result of this

it's actually everyone know we should be engaging with developers opening open

engagement and so on.

Again, I don't know who wants to pick this one up, but when

can we expect that to be set up?

And how would you sort of envisage that looking?

I mean, is Juliet going to be sort of agony on for

developers and the link in?

Are officers going to lead that?

How is that going to look?

Because I think it's important that there's member input.

And then also.

Councillor Juliet Layton - 2:09:53

I can comment on that, because again, yes, it mentions that

in here, we've been talking about developers' forums for

years, I think, and that we've never had enough staff and

resources and time to actually put anything together.

Because if you're going to get something together and you're

going to be making promises that we can do this, that,

and the other, and we can do, you know, pre -apps on for

large developments and all of that, you need to have the

staff in the office to fulfill that.

If we're offering a service, we've got to have to be able to

to deliver in a timely manner for people.

So it always got put on the back burner.

So I was talking about it with Mike Napa, David Moran, Adrian Harding, and I was talking

about it to Jerry and Helen.

So it's something that we've got as an idea, but it's actually getting the time to do that

and to be able to deliver because I think it's really important that we can, you know,

it's no good just going and having one of your breakfasts, Joe, is it, if you're not going to come up with a, you know.

Officer - 2:11:15

I think the action plan commits to some form of update by winter, but say effectively the end of this year.

The first one's always more painful and you haven't done them in a long time because the developers will want to come

and they'll all want to talk about everything.

The plan is you then get them in periodically,

you theme them so the developers,

they're not just coming to talk about any old thing.

So then you can have maybe a members engagement session

and an ecology engagement session.

You can structure them and theme them

so that you can manage officer time in a proper way.

You're not all turning up and just sort of getting yelled

at by developers on all different things.

But I think, yeah, that's the, hopefully I'd have thought,

maybe start if we get them planned by the end of this year

for something to start early next year.

Councillor Joe Harris - 2:11:52

Yeah, and I think there's a role for comms in this because that is a public affairs function

which the communications team should be doing.

That is communicating with a key stakeholder.

So I'd say if it was an agency, we wouldn't have the people at the coalface going and

doing.

So I think there needs to be some ownership of that.

There we go, got our first recommendation, haven't we?

Finally the sort of reference in there to AI and new technology.

So are we using anything at the minute to sort of streamline processes?

You know, the amount of chat GPT I've been doing in this meeting is unholy.

So are officers doing that to streamline processes, deal with resident correspondence, and is

there anything in the pipeline we can look at that could perhaps create efficiencies

and better ways of working?

Officer - 2:12:38

Informally, I use it quite a bit, just to dabble with it, try and work out what works

about what doesn't.

and our enforcement team are exploring options,

especially for some of those backlog cases

in terms of non -expediency reports

where we can generate sort of quicker,

briefer reports through AI.

It's, and certainly also for

permissive elements inquiries,

generally, I've found when I've tried it,

AI is pretty good with those, you just have to direct it.

So it's something we're starting to explore,

but I think it is very early stages, really.

But I think it is something that is so useful.

I know I do it a lot with complaints,

because you can put the complaint in,

ask for it to summarize it,

provide you with a bullet point list,

and then start to respond to it.

We're starting in little ways, but I think we need,

as part of the broader plan, to include a proper look at,

basically, at what steps of the process

can it be most used effectively, and also, obviously,

cautiously, because we don't want to be using it too much,

because it can lead to problems, but where it can add value,

it's a really valuable tool.

Exactly, yes.

I'd just like to add to that, actually, because Jerry

Councillor Juliet Layton - 2:13:41

and Helen are very keen to be using this and getting

technologies like that in. Interestingly, that was a little tail, I tried getting, I

don't use chat GP, I used co -pilot because it's on our Microsoft thing. Yeah, well it is,

yes. I live public and guess what somebody came to help them. But I used it for local, I said

do me a briefing on the local plant, that our paper we've just looked at. It got all

the numbers completely wrong. We had a 3 .4 year land supply. It had no idea. It was absolutely

100 % rubbish. So I worry that because if we do it and we use it, it has got to be right.

We've got a chatbot thing, which that was only yesterday things, which I haven't brought to

anybody. But that's telling people to do some very odd things. So we need to know that if we

using those technologies they've got to be right and we need to be digitalized

and we need to come up into the whatever century we are in now but but we have

got the team that are keen so that's hopeful

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:14:58

Thank you I've got Councillor Cunningham. Thank you Madam Chair. I've got a couple

Councillor David Cunningham - 2:15:02

of general points and then a couple of specifics. The general feel for this is

is for me that the planning team needs to be more engaged with the rest of the world

and start off with CDC would be nice. I think that works both ways for them. I thought Adrian

still worked here, I'll give you a clue. Every time a new officer starts I find out because

I get a case through with a name on it and think, oh, who's that? So it would be quite

nice to have a better idea of who does what and where and why and just generally to make

things less awkward. So that's a general thing. I think that the planning team isn't utilised

enough in the policy stuff. I think there's a lot of experience there, there's a lot of

information that can be used, practical information that can be used to make some of the things

that we're doing a little bit more real world.

I mean, I know they seem to live in a glass castle,

but the reality is they are out there seeing what's going on.

So I would like to know who's in the team, what they do.

I'd like to know in terms of enforcement

when there is a case, if they can share the triage with me,

if it's in my ward.

If there's an issue of confidentiality,

I'm sure I can sign some sort of NDO if you want me to.

But someone coming up and saying, I've had this going on with your enforcement team and

they're ignoring me and I go duh.

But I understand that there is an opportunity for you guys, for the enforcement guys to

say, someone's knocked a house down and we didn't want them to do that because it was

400 years old.

That's going to be over the top of someone's put a shed up in the back garden and I can

see the roof with my binoculars.

So if it's possible for them to share some of their own internal triage work, I think

that would be helpful for the members.

And the last thing is the extension of time.

Prepare to reduce the extension of time.

You and I have discussed this before.

I understand that we're quite wary of the governments prescribing things to us because

they have the ability to say you keep missing deadlines.

But extensions and time, as you and I both agree, are very handy in terms of getting

to a solution at the end that suits everybody.

Being held down to a timeline that then forces through a bad decision or forces through a

change in plans that we then get a non -material amendment for, which we all know is non -material,

causes extra work.

I know it raises money, but even so.

So, while I completely agree that prepare to do that if we need to, in the meantime

I do think there's a case for using extensions of time when they can work out to get a good

solution at the end of an application.

My recommendation would be, I understand you think you've got enough of an enforcement

team, I don't think you have.

So my recommendation would be to beef that team if you get the opportunity.

I love the fact that usually every meeting I go to I moan about how much money you guys

are spending.

In this meeting I've done nothing but spend money for you.

So I get the irony of it, but that would just be my thoughts.

Officer - 2:18:31

If I can add on the enforcement issue, yes, to be honest, it benefits the team to be able

to engage with members because you guys are often the first people being communicated

to by members of the public.

If you can field some of the questions to somebody that helps the team, but also helps

you support your constituents.

We used to have a regular enforcement update email.

I know members currently probably for some time have been getting enforcement updates

to follow or enforcement updates to come.

We just don't have the resources at the minute to do that.

But it's something we're really keen to do.

You get the same thing with the pre -applications.

Obviously, pre -applications are confidential too.

But it's shared with members for information but obviously not to be shared more widely.

So there's nothing wrong with us doing that from an enforcement point of view too.

It is just getting the resources in place that we can actually do that.

And again, if we could sort the systems out and the IT out, we can automate a lot more

of that so it's not as labor intensive for each individual officer to do that.

The other problem is obviously we've got quite a significant backlog.

So how much members actually wants to be informed of everything we've got going?

Again, I think there's a bit of an exercise there to work that down, to work out what

we call active enforcement cases, things that are still progressing.

So there's a bit of work to do there, but that is something very much on the agenda that we'd like to reintroduce because it's really valuable.

On the extensions of time, I generally agree. My personal view is always if you can get a good decision in ten weeks, that's better than getting a bad one in six.

But there's two trains of thought. One is previously, when it was the Conservative government, they suggested removing extensions of time.

There doesn't seem to be any proposal to continue to do that, but there is now a proposal to

start monitoring local authorities against how they use extensions of time.

We don't really know what that's going to look like yet, but it's popped up a couple

of times now, which normally means there's some legs to it and it is going to progress.

Until we know what that is, we can't really do much to it, but we have to be prepared

that if they suddenly came in and said, no, you can use no more than 50 % of applications

to provide extensions of time, we need to be able to respond to that.

The second point is using extension time is very good where we can reach a decision.

There is also an element of us doing a lot of extra work for no extra income.

Whereas if we can direct people to the pre -application process, obviously we can recoup our costs

and it's more cost effective for the way we run the department.

In theory we can provide a better service and reach better outcomes and meet the targets.

There's obviously got to be a bit of flex to that.

Sometimes if you need to give an extra week because you can get one set of quick revised plans

and then get a positive outcome, great.

That's practical, it's easy, it's not costing us a lot.

But we in the past went through a period of three, four, five

different variable revisions to things.

Applications open for a number of months.

It's not practical.

We're doing a lot of extra work for no extra income.

It's costing us more to do that when

there is the option of the pre -application to recoup

costs.

But if a developer knows that you're just

creating extension time for six months

and work it through with them, they're

never going to do the pre -application.

So it's a balance, certainly.

But we've got to find that balance

to make sure we're effectively able to fund the service properly.

About people and knowing people and who they are, we are actually

Councillor Juliet Layton - 2:21:34

working on that on the

website and on our council portal, so we're updating all the information and I think some

photographs I think, because I said it's quite nice to be able to know who people are when

you bump into them. I mean, there will be, we've got planners that don't ever come in,

I don't know, it's getting a bit better.

But, you know, we've got flexible working,

so some people don't come in.

Extensions of time were really valuable

when our numbers were bad

and we were nearly in special measures.

And it was then, you know, I think it was probably Phil Shaw

saying get extensions of time,

do it right at the beginning of the application

before you even know that you need it.

But what I think in the past the planners had this sort of pride of actually getting

the application through.

Get an application, somebody wants this, the neighbour doesn't want that, da da da.

Work with them together, we'll get something in the round and everybody will be happy.

And you end up by redesigning the whole thing, which is not your job.

This is, you know, the job is to get an application through, not put in loads of, oh well perhaps

we can try this, that, and the other.

So then we don't need to use those extensions of time

anymore because we are asking for an efficient,

faster service.

And as soon as we have those extensions of time,

although as Harry said, it costs money and a lot of it, actually.

And it was being very much abused by the applicants.

They would, you'd get half -hearted

applications come in.

So we've got a validation process now that is tighter,

so there's a lot of other stuff that they need to do.

So that's helped, but it's quite difficult moving that forward.

So we need to be making determination quickly

and thoroughly and properly.

So I don't disagree with any of that.

Councillor David Cunningham - 2:23:35

The issue that I have is that the validation process

in the past has not been as robust.

things have allowed to go in as a full application which were clearly missing important information.

So that made it more difficult because then the planners had to then go back and say,

oh, I also need this, I also need that.

The other thing I worry about is the fact that without an extension of time,

we very often miss the deadlines for consultees,

which can open us up to where we refuse an application to a poor decision when it goes to appeal

because it's very easy for an applicant to say,

well actually they didn't tell me there was anything wrong

with the highways,

because they didn't have a highways report.

They gave me an answer.

It wasn't a fully fledged answer.

It was based on what they thought or a conversation

rather than being an actual report back from the consultee,

conservation landscape, whoever it is.

So I think that I agree the two, three, four, five bites

of the apple is finished.

We shouldn't be doing that at all.

I always recommend that people go for a pre -app, always.

I've had good results from that and bad results from that.

I'm looking at one right now.

And there is a situation where I think we can get to the point where through proper validation, a pre -app, the process should be done in time.

But there are instances where I think an extension of time can be helpful.

I'm just saying I wouldn't I wouldn't be slavish to it that if it isn't by the six weeks, then you're done

I'm going to put out this recommendation

Regardless of whether it's a good one or not just so that I get a tick in the box on the time frame

I think that would open us up to I think more problems is worth

No, I mean I agree we already have a negotiation protocol which is has

Officer - 2:25:20

flexibility built in it asks series of questions

which officers have to answer. There's been a bit of a mixed uptake on that and I think

part of the reduced reliance on extensions of time is probably actually stick to that

protocol. It's got the ultimate flexibility and just follow that a bit more thoroughly

because I do agree. And again, with consortees, I think that also will link into another recommendation,

which is service level agreements between the different services so we can understand

each other's expectations in terms of time scales and things because I completely agree

we shouldn't be making a decision, refusing something on highways grants if we haven't

got a highways objection or haven't got a highways comments where that is a technical

point. So no, it's definitely a balance and it's definitely trying to find that flex in

the system. But just applying that consistently I think is the key. It's not fair for one

applicant to feel they've been given a goal, well they consider a goal -plated service and

the other one can just go refuse on week six. It's finding that balance and finding that

consistency and that will take a bit of time. But yeah, I do agree there's got to be some

flex in the process.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:26:19

Thank you. I just wanted to follow up on the enforcement. I think we might even have a

recommendation on this to beef it up. I'm just going to say that when I have got engaged

with enforcement officers, it really has helped the process. And I'm not saying I didn't think

we had to, we had some quad bikes which were being used for fun by a local hotel for their

residents and they screamed up and down the hill around the corner, destroying the peace

and quiet that everybody was supposed to be enjoying, the people on the footpath.

And it did take a bit of time, but we did get there.

And we got another thing with a garage which is abandoned and is an ecological disaster.

I don't even want to go and look at it in Chipping Camden.

And another one which is actually to do with following up on a planning agreement and that

the developer hasn't completely abided by all the things.

And they've been very helpful.

Now, it really helps them, and I think it's helped the people

who are affected by these things when there is member engagement.

So I would like for the more important, the ones where

sometimes the member going out, going to talk to people,

thinks it can just shift the balance and get it resolved more quickly.

So I feel that that was a very good proposal for a recommendation.

We shall now go forward to Councillor Slater.

Councillor Tony Slater - 2:27:39

It's quite fortuitous, I've just got a new live enforcement case coming in as we've been

speaking.

We've got 561 cases according to the information we saw yesterday in the backlog.

When you mentioned a six months span of a case, that didn't seem to be any priority

to reduce that with a new post review.

In my view, this particular one is around a brand new building

being put in the wrong place or going to an old set of plans.

So the neighbour wants that looked at.

So in my mind it will be going to triage, you'd review it.

I would think a quick visit because, oh, hang on, we can impact this straight away, do a

review and then either close it or serve a notice.

If we're waiting six months for that particular case, it will be built, lived in and then

there will have to be appeals and further planning applications, retrospective, et

cetera, et cetera.

How can that be managed from my and residents' perspective?

For me it comes back to that enforcement plan which is setting out

Officer - 2:29:00

clearly to residents exactly what the process is, what the timescales are, how we prioritise cases.

Obviously there will be some element of interpretation in there and a resident may consider their complaint as top priority,

which is why we may consider it medium, but at least it's set out there in black and white.

In terms of how we handle that moving forward, we do need to get the staff on the ground.

We are back down to 50 % capacity as of next week and that will be a key point.

We need to get the people imposed to deal with it.

If we can also get our processes sorted, the triaging will help because it will sift out

a lot of those non -complaints so we can focus on the ones that there is value we can add.

But also it will ensure early engagement, so there will be a point of communication,

some will be able to have that contact.

They might not be able to contact the actual enforcement officer immediately but there

is somebody in the department who there is that dialogue with.

My hope is that again starts that early engagement.

Unfortunately enforcement can be a long process.

It is very technical.

There is a lot of risk from appeals and costs and potential having to pay if we have wasted

time.

So it is very rarely as simple as running out and serving a notice, however much sometimes

we would love to do it.

Notices are notoriously challenging because you get one wording slightly wrong and it

falls apart and again you struggle at appeal so getting it right is really key

and I think that also comes back to getting the right staff in post but our

hope is that if we can sort the processes out, sort the enforcement plan

out and get a bit of a recruitment process where we can get the right people

and the right posts. It may not make it perfect but at least we will have a

smoother process, a clearer process and again working with comms in terms of

improving how we engage with people because I think that's I always say to

my team I very rarely get complaints about the length of time things take. I

get complaints because of lack of communication.

But that's the key element for me,

and where we can build that into the process.

Whether it is simple automated responses,

or if it is speaking to somebody that they can actually

get through to, unfortunately it does just require somebody

to be in the chair to answer, which is the sort of first

hurdle we've got to get past.

Can I just, you used the word hope a couple of times

Councillor Tony Slater - 2:31:08

in that explanation I'm on.

Ease on.

I come back to Councillor Turner's to -do list.

I think as long as we have a very specific to -do list, rather than hope, please.

Absolutely, sorry, yes, I used the word hope.

Officer - 2:31:28

There is a, say, the enforcement plan process, it's already been reviewed and I've prepared

a draft of, it'll probably be an interim measure, because again, I think we need the corporate

plan, the service plan, which will then sort of cascade down into an enforcement plan.

But if we can prepare an interim measure, say which I've already got drafted, we're

already having conversations with the finance team in terms of what budget we have, when

we can get people in post, and say next week I'll be going out to recruit to fill the temporary

post until November again.

So there is actual action taking place, and yeah, we do have a plan in place.

And so hopefully the enforcement plan, the aim I believe will be the end of this year,

we will have either an interim or a final version of that ready to go.

So there are actual steps actually already being taken.

So I appreciate.

Hope is a bit limited.

Yes, thank you for that.

Councillor Jenkins.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:32:20

Thank you, Chair.

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 2:32:24

It's not often that I find myself

in complete agreement with Councillor Cunningham,

but this is one of them, and with others.

I'm restraining myself on the subject of compliance and so

forth because otherwise I could spend some time on it.

So I'm restraining myself.

I'd like to, however, say how much of a difference it makes

when a large compliance project is done and actually

achieves something.

I think it's really important.

It's the fact that when it gets done right, it's such a massive

impact that you are going to hear about, you've been hearing

about when it doesn't.

So I'd like to thank you very much for what you and the team

have been doing.

I have three questions.

The first is, when I read this, having got some experience of

both consulting and being consulted, it reads a little bit

like a sort of cookie cutter template that you download

and maybe customize a little bit.

I could at random read the beginning of any of one

of these, and it would probably work just about anywhere.

This is something you should do.

So the question I'd like to ask is when the planning

and enforcement team read it, when you reviewed it,

what came through?

And in another situation, I talk through every single

one individually, that's not going to happen.

Can you highlight for us, when you went through this,

what really came home as really significant for your team,

please?

Of course, I mean, to me, the two key points were, one,

Officer - 2:34:13

the positive, which is we have a very positive, engaged,

proactive team who value their work and take great pride

in their work, but who need to be given the processes

and the facilities of the IT, the background,

to support what they do.

We need to be more efficient and more effective,

but that will come down to use of IT, whether it's AI,

whether we've got better performance management things.

But the people are there, and the people are good at what

they do, and they take pride in what they do,

but we've got to give them the tools to do it as effectively

as possible.

If I was to summarize it in a sort of sentence, it's, yeah,

that.

Thank you.

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 2:34:50

So that supports what I was going to bring, so thank you.

There's reference to project management.

Is project management the same as process management?

They come together.

And so the first part is I have the sense that the systems

are not there.

You seem to have been saying that.

The processes are not there.

I referenced that Adrian, when he came, reported how it

stroud.

They had a system of, for example, getting together every

week and checking whether there were compliance matters that

needed to be taken care of, whereas we've been able to allow

major public open spaces to last years without being even noticed

that something had happened.

Officer - 2:35:44

I think, yeah, sort of to go through, yes, different things

were worked well for different authorities, so it's not a sort

of one -size -fits -all, but we've done a lot of work to improve

our performance management and our underlying processes, but our use of IT is still fairly

basic and it's something we're already working to improve. Improving that sort of functionality

and that ability, again for the officers just to focus on the bits where they add value,

the bits where they're actually able to engage is sort of the top priority or one of the

top priorities for me. In terms of compliance, the team already meet weekly and that's something

they've done for a little while now. I think we'll need, what we need to do is set up enforcement

specifically and compliance specifically, is separate out the backlog and the new stuff.

I think they are separate projects. The backlog project is quite a significant project. But

it does sort of bog down everything we're doing because you're trying to sift through.

I feel very sorry for officers where you've got caseloads that high. Where do you start?

And they need to be given clearer prioritization. And a lot of that will come back to the triaging.

But also if they have the processes which organize and manage that work better for them.

Again, they can just focus on the key elements.

So, yeah, for me, there's no one size fits all,

but clearly we need some work.

But again, the enforcement team, they have their weekly meetings.

If those processes could help them out,

if we could sort and separate out the backlog project,

they can just run full throttle with those key

and high priority cases then.

Thank you.

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 2:37:06

Then the last question concerning specifically

aspects of systems.

And I declare, I have already declared I'm a fellow

of the Cybernetics Society and, you know, we get into managing

things through feedback systems and so on.

So automated feedback systems to alert people about what's going

on in the process.

That's one aspect.

I don't know whether you are planning to do that,

more of that.

And the second one is a reference to transparency.

But if you don't have any timesheet systems, it's very

hard to know how much anything is costing, really.

Are either of those two systems, is there any other system that

you would particularly mention that you are focusing on trying

to implement?

Of course.

I won't go into the detail because they are sort of,

Officer - 2:37:57

but we've got, currently have a system called Enterprise that's

a case management system.

We don't really use it very much.

It should take you from basically the point of receipt

of an application, whether that enforcement or development

management, all the way through to the point of determination or

and it should automate every step of that.

We've already got that software, we need to set it up,

we need to code it, we need to introduce the key elements.

Other things that that can do then is introduce key thresholds

for say automated notifications to know, you know,

it received an after 20 days or say when we've registered an application

you can tick a box, it will automatically notify them.

It lacks the personal touch but in terms of those key stages in the process,

it can pick those up.

I think the other bit then comes back to performance management.

That isn't to say there's a performance management issue, but obviously I always tell the team

I should know there's a problem before they see there's a problem.

I should see it building if a caseload's growing, if there's a trend that they're not seeing,

but I should be able to see it.

Currently, I rely on Excel spreadsheets.

Every Monday, Sunday, I make my Excel spreadsheets and they get shared with the team.

It's very time consuming and labor intensive.

We've already been exploring using, whether it's Power BI or iDocs, who's effectively

our provider of uniform and our systems, they have their own version.

But again, it's their own tools and techniques so the officers can have access to see their

caseloads visually.

It's something we can share with members.

So again, there's that visual element rather than just numbers on a spreadsheet.

And also from my point of view, I can see those trends more.

They're just at the touch of my finger as opposed to when I've generated my rather long

and slightly silly spreadsheet, which is getting a bit over the top.

But it's, so yes, I think there's the enterprise case management bit, which will have a lot

of those feedbacks.

automated elements and just general case management through categories, stages of

the process and also the performance management and just having stuff more

readily available to us and they're both say in the works I had a meeting

yesterday about some the iDocs insights which is their version of Power BI so

we're already working through those bits and hopefully they'll be fairly quick

things we can turn around and get get introduced.

I refer back to...

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 2:40:02

Sorry, I just want to add to that, that enterprise bit that we've been

Councillor Juliet Layton - 2:40:05

asking for that automatic system

because Swindon did it, and we were in Publica,

and we never got that through.

And it was just, I don't know, blocked or whether it's just

who is going to write the right stuff.

But, you know, that has been,

I've been asking for that for years.

Well, I refer back to the previous item

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 2:40:27

and the recommendations we made about making sure

that you have adequate resources,

because in the long run it's going to end up cheaper, obviously.

Thank you.

Right.

Well, thank you.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:40:38

Has anybody else got anything else they wish to raise?

We haven't got that much time left.

One question I just wanted to ask was,

are protocols being drawn up to improve the integration of the

different planning teams, particularly as regards to

ecology, heritage, and design with development management,

to create a more cohesive approach?

This presumably might be helped by this IDOC.

It is something which was picked up in the past report that they

to do slightly worse silos between them and the...

Yes, so part of it will come down to performance management,

Officer - 2:41:09

but I think the key bit will be those service level agreements.

It's effectively, I can go to say Joe's team and we can say,

well, this is what we need from you and these are sort of timescales

and Joe can do the same back to us.

And especially with the heritage and design team,

it's, you know, working to those three, four -week deadlines,

them understanding, us being able to feedback the performance,

you know, whether they're meeting those targets or not,

but also what the expectations are

If we know they've got a big project coming up, we can manage our work around that.

I think we do it a bit, but it's quite informal.

I think it's having a slightly more formal process, and that will come through those

service level agreements.

It will just set out, hopefully, very simply and fairly obvious things, but in writing,

quite clearly, this is what we need from you, this is what we offer, this is how we'll agree

to manage that and go through it and have periodic reviews.

We all meet the heads of already once a month, and say we're mostly all in at least three

days a week, I'm in five days a week.

So we all meet informally a lot.

I think it's just having something a bit more formal and

on paper just so we can manage and effectively review it.

It's not a problem if there's an underperformance.

Normally the first thing you want to do is identify the

problem, but if you can't see the problem, you can't then go

about fixing it.

So we've just got to get that bit in place.

Another element of that, which is something we started a few

Councillor Juliet Layton - 2:42:22

months ago, I guess, is that we'll have a service meeting

with me and all the people in the department.

So actually they're all feeding in.

And I said, is this a valuable meeting for everyone?

You know, is it better for one person to tell me

what everything's happening?

But actually everybody found it very valuable

because it's that time, we've just extended the time actually

because we don't have quite enough.

But we'll have, you know, the conservation

and we'll have housing and we'll have Harry and Matt.

So we'll have everybody in.

and they all benefit from that.

So that's another exchange that's quite a formal thing going,

but fairly new, really, actually, that.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:43:12

Well, I mean, exactly, probably, inspired by these past reports

or whether you'd already thought of it before.

You already think.

But it is good, and it's good that once, you know,

getting people around a table together,

there is nothing like it for sharing ideas,

as we are here today.

So thank you very much.

Councillor Juliet Layton - 2:43:29

person because I like it like that. I did say a table I didn't say a screen so

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:43:32

that's even better and I think it is what builds a team that's what it's all

about isn't it. So thank you for that now we've lost Councillor Harris at the

moment but I was wondering whether we were going to have these recommendations

to be approved to go forward. One of them is certainly on the enforcement but

making sure that

So chair what I've captured as we've gone

Angela Claridge - 2:43:59

There are a couple of actions coming out of this that I don't believe our recommendations

But please if I can just check my understanding there was an action that I think came from councillor Harris about

The comms team being engaged in terms of the developer forum that's proposed. So I'm getting a nod on that

That's obviously an action.

There was also another action which I know is underway anyway

about adding planning contracts to the member portal.

I heard a slightly scary comment about photographs,

but I know comments, I know that the contracts are going on there.

So I think there were two actions.

Chair, you asked, we talked about ONS reviewing this again in March.

I don't know if you want that to be part of the recommendations

or you want Julia and myself to add it to the work programme.

Yes, I think it would be actually to go forward on the work program.

It's not actually a recommendation to cabinet.

So that would be very good.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:44:57

I was going to think of something else, but now I've...

Oh, I was just going to mention about, I shouldn't say, but my question of full council,

one of them is about having an organogram, all the things I was showing who's that,

because as somebody else mentioned I was suddenly stuck for who was head of planning

because they said to me at a parish meeting and I went oops I don't actually know.

So it's really helpful for us all to know who's who and how it's structured.

So thank you for that.

So, Jo, I think in terms of recommendations it might be that we just

Angela Claridge - 2:45:33

need to frame them slightly.

I have heard you talk about recommendations around consideration for additional resources

for enforcement activity. Obviously Harry has outlined the resource constraints he has

got within the team. You recommend there is either enhanced or increased member engagement

interface on enforcement activities, as has been outlined, often the members will know

far more about what is going on within their ward than the officers will. They were the

sort of headlines, we might need to frame them slightly better, as I've picked up as

the recommendations from this committee.

Thank you. I think there was one other recommendation, which was that

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 2:46:13

if the team needs addition

should consider whether the team needs additional resource in order to implement the systems

that would enable it to become more efficient and effective. Because it seems like it's

being held back at the moment from things it's been wanting to do for a long time, in

which case the recommendation is provide the resources necessary. Perhaps it's a short -term

project or something.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:46:42

Right. I want to get – I think that one – I'm not saying I'm talking – David

Stanley is no longer with us on it, but it's slightly more difficult to actually agree

on costs.

We're asking them to go forward and ask for the money.

Go to Cabinet and say, go to Cabinet and ask.

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 2:47:07

I have no idea how much it might cost.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:47:21

How many?

Councillor Juliet Layton - 2:47:23

Well, that sounded funny, didn't it?

I don't know, because we'd have to ask if there is anything in a budget, which I feel

like there won't be. You've already asked for extra in -enforcement, you need more

enforcement officers, you want more somebody to it an IT person to implement

the systems perhaps. Yeah I we could try.

I noticed I noticed Harrison Bowley nodding his head very

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 2:47:57

enthusiastically

Officer - 2:48:03

when I proposed that. I think it's something to review. I think we

at this point we don't necessarily know. I think it's something we need to work on

with our IT. We've already got the enterprise system, we already have a

version of Power BI. What we need to understand is how much more we would

need on top of that or have we already got that and it just needs coding and

working out with our IT colleagues. So there's the potential we may need more

but currently until we've explored what we already have it's difficult to sort

what that might be.

I'm sure it's about parameterizing the systems

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 2:48:32

you've already got and providing the training to people

to use them and bringing the process through.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:48:44

Right, so has Angela got an idea of how to phrase

this to cover it properly?

This is the second.

The first one I think is easier.

On the enforcement, I think it's that enforcement officers

actually go out to contact the members for, you can tell, I'm sure you can generally tell,

which are the ones where a little bit more local knowledge or discussion can be enormously

helpful. And as somebody said earlier, you can actually clear it off your fingers and

sort it out, which is really the issue.

Angela Claridge - 2:49:20

Chair, so as I say, I might need to talk to obviously the 151 officer, David Stanley isn't

here at the moment, but in terms of the previous recommendation

where you were recommending additional resources

were coming through to support the development

of the local plan, we talked about taking something forward

for October's budget update.

So I'll work with David to obviously share with yourselves

in terms of how we quite frame this to put this to Cabinet

on Thursday.

We have got the portfolio holder for finance sitting

at the back, but that's, oh, okay, shush.

In terms of resource, it's about earmarking,

exploring additional resources for the enforcement activities,

additional resource potentially that needs to be reviewed,

as Harry has outlined, in terms of what systems we've already

got, but we need some help in terms of turning them on

and making them work, as opposed to whether we need

additional resource, be it IT, be it staff,

to actually support the improvements of using IT.

And then as we've said, there's also the member engagement

activities around enforcement because members have that local

knowledge and as was articulated,

are often able to help clear up matters very quickly.

Can I just?

I didn't mean to do that.

Councillor Juliet Layton - 2:50:34

What I was going to say is if we,

I mean, it sounds fabulous, oh yeah,

we need more resources to get more enforcement officers in,

which would be a great help.

But the more enforcement officers you have,

the more stuff you're sending up to the legal team,

you're going to have to boost the legal team,

because that's where things get stuck as well.

So it's not just having enough enforcement officers

doing that work.

It has quite a substantial knock -on effect.

I think there's a huge appetite for getting automation,

getting these systems working, getting this IT sorted.

And it's something we've been trying, as I said,

I've been really trying to do.

and it's been not happening.

I feel now we've got this really stable team of people

who are keen to do that and move it on.

I mean, I'm not saying anything about the agency guys

that we had before because I think they did a really good job

in what they were doing because they had a big task to tackle.

But I think we're now at this point

where we do absolutely need to get up to date with this.

And, you know, I think we've got a lot of members

that have got a lot of skills as well

who could perhaps assist or advise, perhaps.

I'm not sure our IT skills are my top top top.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:51:53

I'm not meaning me.

But I'm sure there are others.

So now look, can I actually ask this committee now,

which of these recommendations do you feel confident

and wish to take forward for recommendation to Cabinet?

Yes, and Angela will now.

Angela Claridge - 2:52:14

Just to recap then, so it's about additional resource for enforcement activities, which has just been articulated,

may have knock -ons included into my own team and others, that members are engaged or they are the interface

in terms of some enforcement activities where you have that additional knowledge.

I mean, that's an additional step in probably Harry's processes, but that doesn't probably involve any additional cost indirectly.

And then additional resource where needed once a review of the current automation that we have

but we haven't turned on is there.

So we're not quite sure how that one's going to go,

but I think you're very loud and clear about using automation

where we can do.

Councillor Watson. Sorry, I'm not getting this.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:52:54

Yeah, I'm very happy to go along with recommendation two and three.

Councillor Ian Watson - 2:52:59

The first one, and I think the point was a very good point

that if we have got extra enforcement,

There's a whole lot of downstream activities that need to follow through that we're not

set up for, so we would be employing people with no end result.

Councillor David Cunningham - 2:53:24

Sorry, I think the thing with enforcement is that you triage the work.

That's the important thing, because there are many enforcement reports that come in,

breach of condition, et cetera, which never go to legal, which never go anywhere else

other than a planner saying, actually, that is okay.

But it's a case of then – and these are recommendations within the report – further

engagement with members, making sure that enforcement is fully beefed up, fully resourced,

and ensuring that the information flow between the teams is clear.

So I think we can agree with the recommendation in the – as a recommendation to Cabinet

to take on board what has been put in the report, which is keep enforcement properly

resourced. I think we need to do a review of automation before we ask for more money

for it. And I think that the overall engagement with the member is another point that was

raised by the peer review, and I think we should support that with the recommendations

Councillor?

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 2:54:30

Thank you for the comments that I've just heard.

My view is that the thing about enforcement is when I discovered that there was a major

problem with four of my states, I mean four in my ward, a big problem.

What I got, the feedback I got from my fellow councillors in the Liberal Democrat group

was, yeah, but that's all over the country, it's all over the whole district, all over

the place, developers do that, it's all over the country, it happens everywhere.

It's just what developers come along and they put something in and then they don't bother

finishing it off because they know that it's not going to be followed up.

That's really unacceptable.

I really don't think that's an acceptable way.

So it's extremely expensive in the long run.

And it's much better that they get a culture that says,

get it right.

So what I'm suggesting is that we can't waste money.

We've got a limited amount of money.

But we should ask the enforcement team

and those who manage it, in conjunction with the cabinet,

in conjunction with the chief finance officer,

to take a look at this and say, it's

about the 20 % additional investment that has produces

the 80 % additional benefit.

What can we strategically do within our limited resources

that would make a big difference?

And I'm encouraging that we do that, number one.

As far as the automation is concerned,

we're not talking about implementing software.

What we're saying is they've had the software for ages.

We don't have to buy any.

What we're talking about is a project setup.

That's a relatively inexpensive process.

And it needs, it's a temporary job and you haven't got anybody

free to do it, so it never gets done.

And that's extremely expensive.

What we actually need is a bit of help in getting it

implemented and running and so on.

And we will get the benefit for years to come.

That's my point of view on that.

I'm just going to remind everyone,

we've only got five more minutes,

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:56:35

so that is very important.

And are we, oh gosh, I'm in the sun.

Can't see a thing that comes through.

Are we, can we just run through this one more time?

And we're waiting for our patients.

It's that combination of a desire to do things

and whether we have got the ability, resources

to actually do what we're requesting.

So can we, of course, chair.

Angela Claridge - 2:57:09

In terms of the additional resources for enforcement

activities, which you've talked about, is a way of

framing this to say that you support that the team is

fully staffed?

Because I think, Harry, you're telling us that it's not.

Is that, you know, you support whatever work can be

done to recruit to a fully staffed,

directly employed team?

Is that?

Angela Claridge - 2:57:38

Okay so in terms of, as you say it's already in the report about that contact

with members, that interface on enforcement activities. So I think we're

just sort of stressing that that's something in the report that we would

really like to encourage everyone takes up. And then to pick up Councillor

Jenkins's point that he's just made is that that recommend that there is

review of the existing automation within the service

and then consider what is needed to utilise the automation to get

best efficiencies within the team, which obviously may need

additional resources, but at this point we don't know.

And I think you're all very cognisant of the fact that if

more resources are requested, then other things will have to drop.

You know, there is only a finite amount of money.

So how do I sum that up, Chair and Vice -Chairing Committee?

No, I think you've caught that very well.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:58:37

And I just want to say, obviously, that there is a recommendation,

the one written on the thing, which we should also,

I think we'd all be supportive of, which is the thing.

So I would like to say that we do support that.

These are the additional ones.

My Vice -Chair might like to come in.

The only to say that on the last point you made there were two things

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 2:58:59

that it covered,

not just one, obviously, but the same principle.

Yes.

Right.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:59:08

Is it easier if you say that we would like to highlight certain

Councillor David Cunningham - 2:59:11

aspects, because all

of these things that we're asking to do are actually part of the peer review recommendations?

Yes.

Strengthen planning enforcement resources, maximise digital capabilities, and review

collaboration amongst teams.

So these are all things that have already been recommended

by the review.

Perhaps we just want to recommend the Cabinet pay

particular attention to those points.

I value that.

Thank you.

I think that's a very good way of saying we support the

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:59:43

recommendations here and the word highlight I like a lot.

These actual things and that's included.

voted. Is somebody prepared to propose and second that?

I don't mind whose turn.

Councillor Cunningham first, Councillor Sator a second.

Now could we take that to the vote, please?

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 3:00:10

Thank you very much, everybody. We have just about done it in the time frame.

It's been really useful. I think everybody here, and thank you, Harrison and Juliette,

had a

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Overview and Scrutiny Committee - Tuesday 8 July 2025, 2:00pm - Cotswold District Council Webcasting

Overview and Scrutiny CommitteeTuesday, 8th July 2025 at 2:00pm

Agenda

Slides

Transcript

Map

Resources

Twitter

Forums

Speakers

Feedback

Votes

1 Apologies

1 Apologies

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:00:04

Julia Gibson, Officer - 0:01:24

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:01:32

Julia Gibson, Officer - 0:01:37

2 Substitute Members

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:01:48

3 Declarations of Interest

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:01:56

4 Chair's Announcements

5 Public Questions

6 Member Questions

7 Local Plan Update

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:04:26

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:04:50

Councillor Michael Vann - 0:05:13

Councillor Ian Watson - 0:05:18

Councillor Joe Harris - 0:05:20

Councillor Clare Turner - 0:05:25

Councillor David Cunningham - 0:05:27

Councillor Nick Bridges - 0:05:32

Councillor Tony Slater - 0:05:36

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 0:05:42

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:05:47

Councillor Juliet Layton - 0:06:14

Officer - 0:06:50

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:07:03

Councillor Juliet Layton - 0:07:05

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:10:10

Councillor Juliet Layton - 0:10:43

Officer - 0:10:57

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:13:23

David Stanley, Deputy CEO - 0:13:28

Councillor David Cunningham - 0:15:15

Officer - 0:15:37

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:16:49

Councillor Clare Turner - 0:16:56

Officer - 0:18:49

Councillor Juliet Layton - 0:19:38

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:20:45

Councillor Juliet Layton - 0:21:01

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:22:02

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:22:37

Councillor Joe Harris - 0:22:49

Councillor Juliet Layton - 0:23:45

Officer - 0:24:51

Councillor Joe Harris - 0:28:38

Councillor Juliet Layton - 0:31:01

Councillor Joe Harris - 0:35:15

Officer - 0:35:49

Officer - 0:38:07

Councillor Joe Harris - 0:38:59

Councillor Joe Harris - 0:39:33

Councillor Juliet Layton - 0:40:12

Councillor Joe Harris - 0:41:27

Councillor Juliet Layton - 0:41:30

Councillor Joe Harris - 0:42:34

Councillor Juliet Layton - 0:42:56

Councillor Joe Harris - 0:43:18

Councillor Juliet Layton - 0:43:22

Councillor Joe Harris - 0:44:35

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:44:42

Councillor Tony Slater - 0:44:49

Councillor Juliet Layton - 0:45:12

Councillor Tony Slater - 0:46:17

Councillor Juliet Layton - 0:46:57

Officer - 0:47:31

Overview and Scrutiny Committee
Tuesday, 8th July 2025 at 2:00pm