Cabinet Member for Housing and Planning Decision Meeting

Cabinet Member for Housing and Planning Decision Meeting
Wednesday, 2nd April 2025 at 2:00pm

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Councillor Juliet Layton
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Disclaimer: This transcript was automatically generated, so it may contain errors. Please view the webcast to confirm whether the content is accurate.

Councillor Juliet Layton - 0:00:07

Good afternoon. Welcome to today's cabinet member decision meeting. My name is Councillor

Juliet Layton, I'm cabinet member for housing and planning. I'd like the officers in the

Officer - 0:00:25

room to introduce themselves, please. Hello, I'm Joseph Walker, I'm head of economic

Development and Communities at Cotswold District Council.

Julia Gibson, Officer - 0:00:33

Councillor Juliet Layton - 0:00:36

I'm Julia Gibson, and Democratic Services Officer.

Thank you very much.

This meeting is being streamed live to the Council's website,

and all of the meeting papers are also available to view

on the Council's website.

I don't need to tell you about microphones here.

I would just like to remind you about mobile phones,

which I'm actually going to check my own now

because it's perfect, sorry about that.

So today's meeting is to consider

whether a neighbourhood plan submitted

by Chipping Camden Town Council

meets the legal criteria necessary to progress

to public consultation

and subsequent independent examination.

What I would like to do now

is just ask the officers present

if they have any significant interests to declare please.

Officer - 0:01:26

Julia Gibson, Officer - 0:01:30

So no declarations of interest in me. Thank you.

Councillor Juliet Layton - 0:01:32

No, neither from myself.

Nor from myself. So I'm going to go now to the officer's overview of the report please.

So if I can go to you Joseph, you can give us an overview of this.

Officer - 0:01:45

Thank you very much Councillor Layton.

So yes, as you mentioned in the introduction, the purpose of the decision is to review a submission by Chipping Camden Town Council of a neighbourhood plan and determine whether it meets the requirements to move forward to Regulation 16 consultation.

So to try and provide a bit of an overview and context for this, Chippenhamden, the parish area of Chippenhamden, was designated as a neighbourhood area in 2013.

So in the intervening period since then, they've been working on their neighbourhood plan.

Now, clearly that's quite a while.

It would be fair to say that the neighbourhood plan process, and apologies to anyone, if I do call it NDP,

I'm talking about neighborhood plan processes.

It's shorthand.

I will try and avoid that but I do apologize if I slip into jargon at any point.

The neighborhood plan process is often quite long and complex.

More so than the process suggests.

So after earlier consultation phases, the town council consulted on a regulation 14 draft early last year.

A consultation to which this Council responded.

Consequently, they have reviewed the representations made on that draft and come forward with a regulation 15 draft of the neighbourhood plan.

Which was considered by the town council and submitted to Cotswold District Council.

That document was accompanied by a consultation statement and by a basic conditions statement.

and we also have two environmental screenings which is a strategic

environmental assessment screening and habitats regulation assessment screening

both of which determine no further environmental full report is required to

support the neighbourhood plan. So those are the submission documents that the

Cotswold District Council has received and which it needs to consider in terms

of moving forward to Regulation 16 consultation.

And in terms of that decision then and the matter on the table today,

essentially at this point the request of the District Council is procedural.

We need to determine whether we have received a neighbourhood plan consultation pack

and whether we move forward to Regulation 16.

So the decision isn't qualitative in terms of what those documents propose.

It is simply to determine have we got the appropriate documents to move forward to that consultation stage.

So as I've suggested in the report,

my view is that we have received those documents. I've itemized them already in talking, but we have received a neighborhood plan.

We have received the basic condition statement.

We have received the consultation statement and the environmental screening information.

So we have those things. We know Chippin Camden is a qualifying body for the purposes of neighborhood planning because this council designated them as such in 2013.

So my recommendation is that the council moves forward to regulation 16 following receipt of those documents.

Regulation 16 means the council runs a minimum six -week consultation process,

which allows all interested parties to make representations.

Those representations are then sent on to an independent examiner

who looks at the neighbourhood plan and those representations

and makes a judgment in terms of what should happen next with the neighbourhood plan.

Councillor Juliet Layton - 0:05:39

So I'm going to rest there and see if there's any further comment. Thank you.

Thank you very much. I think that's very clear.

So we have received the draft.

Chipping Camden have gone through the whole process,

met the criteria of that process for their neighbourhood plan,

and we've received the relevant documents.

And that's fine.

Did they, in the draft, did they acknowledge the new NPPF,

or is that not significant at this point

for a neighbourhood plan?

Officer - 0:06:07

It is. So clearly the consultation, the regulation 14 consultation took place early last year.

The submission date was in part determined by the new MPPF that came out in December

because there's a period during which you can rely on the previous version of that national

policy, that was a determining factor in them putting the regulation

Councillor Juliet Layton - 0:06:36

15 into us at this

point.

Thank you.

And I apologise to anybody watching, the MPPF is the National Planning Policy Framework,

which was the government put out a new one, I think it was the 12th of December last year.

So I'm going to move now to, we've got public question, I believe.

So, Mr Kesler, are you happy to come up, please?

Thank you.

Public Speaker - 0:07:45

I am Jennifer Kissel, Elector, Chipping Camden.

I have spoken to you once when you were first elected on the telephone.

I thought I would only have a couple of minutes. So I've got a statement.

There is a 2017 Regulation 14 draft for a neighbourhood development plan ready to be submitted to Cotswold District Council at the town council.

I'm sorry Cotsworth yes at the town council I have sent you an email have

you received it yes I have received it I just have to apologize it's with your

speaking I have to keep getting my microphone on because we're recording

yes and anybody listening won't hear okay so we have to have the microphone. Do I turn mine off?

No, no, you carry on. I have received your email. Thank you.

And I'm sure you've read it. I do apologise.

The minutes that I've been referring to I only found on the 29th.

But I have seen the minutes at the Chippen Camden Town Crownsall previously.

and I have noted them down. So I've actually removed most of references in

my email but in my email what I'm saying which I'm sure Mr. Walker doesn't really

agree with is that nothing in the Localism Act 2011 or the regulations

allows another neighbourhood development plan to be produced and submitted to the Cotswold

District Council.

So it may be that you, since there's nobody else here, it may be that you need to ask

me questions, but I thought that the place would be packed and I would only have a minute.

So what I've tried to set out is briefly my concerns and I was going to propose

that any decision is delayed until you've actually received advice on the

content because I don't think Mr. Walker may have actually looked at the minutes

of the Chipping Camden Town Council and what the Chipping Camden Town Council

does, of course, is in their minutes and what they decide to do is in their

minutes and what they decide to do about this 2017 plan is found in their minutes.

I do actually, I did manage to try to print them out and maybe it's easier to

answer your questions here. So now I turn off I think.

Councillor Juliet Layton - 0:11:05

Well, what my understanding is, is that as a draft you can change your draft, you can

redraft a draft. And what we're looking at is this going on to a consultation for

six weeks and an independent examiner for that consultation. However, I'm going

to ask Joseph Walker to explain that more fully. I don't think we possibly

need the minutes at this point.

Even though you've bought them, thank you.

Public Speaker - 0:11:58

upon which representations were made back in 2017.

There is nothing in the regulations that says the Camden Councillors can just abandon that.

It's been through an update by something called NPEERS. It's all updated. In reality,

it should just be sitting on the file somewhere in the council office because

it should actually have been submitted to yourselves and all I'm asking really

is that you don't make a decision until you actually know where and what is

where this 2017 draft is because this thing is what I call the new draft.

Because they've paid somebody to do a new draft.

Now, what we don't know is whether they've actually taken the representations from the people in Camden,

and they have looked at them and they're in here, or because really the Camden Councillors

haven't taken on board that the development plan,

the government intends under the Localism Act

for the people in Chipping Camden to write in about their wishes

of how they see development progressing in the future

and where they actually don't think development should proceed.

So that's another point really that comes up because in this plan once you

take out the Aston Road development because it's expired there just might

not be a development plan because it's got to it's got to be with development.

Councillor Juliet Layton - 0:14:38

Okay, thank you very much for that. I'm going to go to Joseph. I'm also aware

that since 2017 we've, you know, we've got a new local plan which we are now

reviewing already, so there might be all sorts of reasons why that, the earlier

one, would not stand good. But, Joseph Walker, if you could come in

Officer - 0:15:02

there please.

Thank you very much, Councillor Layton.

Mrs. Kessel, thank you for your comments and question there.

I will try and address it.

There's quite a lot there.

My apologies if in responding you feel I haven't managed to cover the entirety of the points

you're picking up.

I think it would be useful to start in terms of a bit of a reflection on neighbourhood

planning.

So neighbourhood planning is not an obligation upon any town council or parish council.

It's an option for them to choose to proceed with creating a local planning policy document

and a decision that a few in Cotswold have taken.

So as a starting point then, Chipping Camden is able to propose a neighbourhood plan.

They're not required to.

By extension therefore, they can choose to proceed or choose to stop at any point in

that process.

It isn't a case of once you start doing a neighbourhood plan, you have to see it through

to the finish so they were entitled to put forward a proposal in 2017.

So and yes as you correctly state they did put forward a regulation 14 draft in 2017 a consultation to which this Council responded at the time.

However they were entitled to stop at that point and to pick that work up thereafter.

That's not an issue for this Council.

Now, clearly, as Chipping Camden Town Council, their work is also delivered on behalf of

their electors, so they are responsible and reportable to their electors in terms of those

decisions.

Could we just slow this down a bit?

I'm sorry.

Public Speaker - 0:16:42

Can we...

Yes, but...

Could we just...

I'm happy to...

Sorry.

I've been asked to slow down a little.

That's absolutely fine.

I do apologize.

I dealt with...

I know Mr. Walker.

I have corresponded with him for ages.

But I'm just, if I could just pick up the fact that you've had

the 2017 submission.

That's what I think I wrote down.

So, but there is absolutely nothing at all in the minutes

to say they've sent it to you.

Officer - 0:17:12

Sorry, could you?

Thank you.

No, I haven't had a 2017 submission.

In 2017 we were consulted on the Regulation 14 draft.

Okay, yes, we were consulted on a Regulation 14 draft.

However, the District Council does not move forward from a Regulation 14 draft.

We are a consultee on a Regulation 14 draft.

We only move forward and do a consultation that we deliver on a later submission.

Public Speaker - 0:17:48

I'm going back to the minutes.

So in here on page 9 we have a reference to here.

where I put it. Yeah. There. This I think is done by Angela Pellegram, this whole book.

Councillor Juliet Layton - 0:18:55

Just for reference, I'm being shown, it says the draft NDP published on the town council

website in 2017.

No, no, this is 24.

This is, yes, but you're saying in the book, yes, in this draft that we're looking at now,

it refers to a draft NDP which was published on the town council website in 2017, which

it is a draft.

Yep, you need to see that, you don't, you don't.

Public Speaker - 0:19:31

So, I'm really trying to get back to the minutes here, because there is nothing in these minutes,

I don't think in 2017.

Yes, they met you and Sophia Price on the 13th of June.

No, on the 14th actually.

Right.

And that's with this 2017 draft.

You must have told them it needed amendment.

And they need to substantiate their claims,

where they disagreed with the local plan.

They then thought somebody called Mark in Davidson would make substantial amendments out of the design.

So that isn't to the Regulation 14.

And they decided on the 12th of September to spend a thousand pounds for a pre -examination from NPEERS health check.

which came back on the 10th of October saying that some policies only were aspirations,

which may be what you found too when you looked.

In October 2018, NPS quoted 1400 to edit the plan so it complied with the local plan and

legislation which was agreed by the town council. So this has all gone on after they've been

to see you, which is why I'm bringing it up because I think you may have absolutely no

idea what they were doing. But this is what the minutes state.

They seem to have received a report, they call it now, in January or February of 2019.

So in February 2019 it's all been brought up to date, it complies with the legislation and it complies with the local plan, because these people, whoever they are in PF, have done it.

So, what I don't understand is that as it's done and ready, why it wasn't submitted to Cotswold District Council.

Because there is absolutely nothing here to tell me until they go off in September 2019 setting up an advisory committee.

And I think from memory, I have a sort of feeling there was some contention going on

because Councillor King has gone, other people have gone, and we have an advisory committee

of Trevor Webb, Michael Haynes, Spink and the Chairman and the Vice -Chairman.

Well, Trevor Webb has come back to the town council a few weeks ago.

He was sitting in the town council office when I was invited to go and look at the agenda

at one point.

And I think he's responsible for putting together what may be called the completion statement

that gets sent in.

So this is when everything is changed.

And so they're then going off to pay, to get a £6 ,000 grant.

They've got Martin Davidson in 2020, January, that's sort of a year later, to draft a new plan.

This is why I'm awfully sorry.

I keep coming up with the fact that the regulations, I don't,

I mean this is where we're in dispute.

I don't think the regulations anticipate that you start

in 2013 and you go through all these steps,

and then you just put the plan on one side and start a new one.

I mean, I can't tell you why they don't like the plan,

but there's no minute to tell me why.

And for goodness sakes, if things have changed,

everything keeps changing.

You have to put the point in the end point.

Councillor Juliet Layton - 0:25:02

Yeah, I do understand where you're coming from.

You've explained that well.

Whether or not they have sent, you know,

they haven't sent it into us, which we do the due process.

So actually the the questioning is really to what is to Chippin Candon and

some some neighborhood development plans take a long time don't they? We do know that

they can they can sit for a long time and they can change and develop. So I

think we've got to go with what we've got in front of us but if Joseph you

Public Speaker - 0:25:39

could you know confirm that. We are looking at the legal criteria which is

why I keep coming back to the local plan and the regulations.

Officer - 0:25:48

Okay, let's go to David.

And thank you for going through the timeline for this.

That was very helpful.

And as Councillor Layton has commented,

we can't comment in terms of decisions

taken externally to this council.

Our role is legally defined as the local planning authority.

We have a role at both ends of the neighbourhood planning process.

We have a much more limited role during the inception process and the preparatory work, the drafting work.

That is within the gift and control of the qualifying body as that so -called in the legislation.

In this case, that's Chipping Camden, as you know.

In terms of your point around a regulation 14 draft and then whether that moves forward and is directly submitted.

That is at the discretion of the town council. I would say it's equally at the discretion of the town council to change that up until the point it is submitted to Cotswold District Council.

I would completely agree with you that there's nothing in the Localism Act that's or indeed the neighborhood plan

regulations that specifically say that but nor is there anything to the contrary. So unless it is

specifically prohibited to change or rerun a regulation 14

it is by definition allowed if it hasn't been precluded. And so I'm very confident that you know

we have now received a submission document that went through regulation 14 consultation last year

that has been those comments have been reflected upon that reflection is captured in the

consultation statement and a draft has been submitted to this council to take forward

and and I would I would refer back to my comment earlier in terms of the the role of the district

Council at this point. So we are very specifically expected in law, so under regulation 16, the

requirement on the District Council is to take forward a submitted neighbourhood plan

to consultation. The legislation says we must do that. It isn't a discretionary factor.

So the only element of decision on this Council is to determine whether what we have received

is indeed a neighbourhood plan and has the necessary supporting documentation. We're

very confident that the plan that we have received, the

consultation statement and the basic condition statement meet

that requirement.

So, you know, I stand by my recommendation in the report.

I hope that helps.

Councillor Juliet Layton - 0:28:29

Dr. Susan Harris -McMahon Thank you very much.

Well, I'm very grateful for you coming in and highlighting this.

And if people are watching it, we've got the opportunity to

to respond to consultation period, but we are working on a process and that process

and the criteria seem to be met.

So...

Can I...

I'm sorry.

Public Speaker - 0:28:54

I'm sorry.

I really have come a long way.

I spent a whole weekend going through this.

I do actually understand that, but this has to be the last one.

I have brought up at the end of my first page that a requirement of the documents that you

you receive from the Chipping Camden Town Council for Regulation 15 is who was consulted,

the explanation of how they were consulted, summaries of the main issues and concerns

raised by those consulted and the description of those issues and concerns have been considered

and where relevant addressed. I really am awfully sorry. I don't find that in the consultation

statement. I found just sort of a load of documents coming at you all the way

through and can you just tell me where I find that in the plan which of course

Officer - 0:29:52

I'm brought with me but...

To my mind the regulation, the consultation statement talks about the

consultation process that has been followed. It contains a summary of how

those representations have been considered and it contains a list of representations

made. So within that document I've seen the representations made for example by this district

council and the consideration thereof. I would highlight that the requirement in law is that

there is a consultation statement, the judgment of the district council is not on the quality

of that but on whether that document exists. If we do have any comment on it we could make

that in a representation that would inform the examiner's

review down the line.

But I do not believe that that consideration

is on the table today.

Councillor Juliet Layton - 0:30:46

OK.

So again, I'll say thank you to the things you've

brought forward.

But I really think we do need to move to a decision which,

I think, although you're not happy with it,

I think we have to, I would have to agree with Joseph Walker on his recommendation that

we take this forward to regulation 16. I think we've had, and given you a good time to tell

us your concerns and considerations, and possibly you need to be talking more with Chipping

Camden if there is anything that you're still concerned about which I'm sure you

are but I think we have to launch I think we have to agree to launch this

Regulation 16 and take this forward so my decision is to go with your

recommendation Joseph thank you is there anything else we need to say

Webcast Finished - 0:32:04

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Cabinet Member for Housing and Planning Decision Meeting - Wednesday 2 April 2025, 2:00pm - Cotswold District Council Webcasting