Council - Wednesday 19 March 2025, 2:00pm - Cotswold District Council Webcasting
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Speaking:
Agenda item :
Start of webcast
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Councillor Nikki Ind
Slide 1
Agenda item :
1 Apologies
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Nickie Mackenzie-Daste, Officer
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Councillor Nikki Ind
Agenda item :
2 Declarations of Interest
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Agenda item :
3 Minutes
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Councillor Gina Blomefield
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Councillor Joe Harris
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor Nigel Robbins
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor Nigel Robbins
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Councillor Nikki Ind
Agenda item :
4 Announcements from the Chair, Leader or Chief Executive
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor Joe Harris
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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CEO Rob Weaver
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Councillor Nikki Ind
Agenda item :
5 Public Questions
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Agenda item :
6 Member Questions
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Councillor Gina Blomefield
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Councillor Joe Harris
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor Tom Stowe
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Councillor Joe Harris
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor Daryl Corps
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Councillor Joe Harris
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Councillor Nikki Ind
Agenda item :
7 Publica Transition Plan - Phase 2
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Councillor Joe Harris
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CEO Rob Weaver
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor Patrick Coleman
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CEO Rob Weaver
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor Gina Blomefield
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CEO Rob Weaver
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Councillor Gina Blomefield
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor Mike Evemy
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor Tom Stowe
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor Patrick Coleman
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor Tony Slater
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor Joe Harris
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor Angus Jenkinson
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor Dilys Neill
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor Tom Stowe
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor Mike Evemy
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor Tom Stowe
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor Joe Harris
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor Daryl Corps
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Councillor Len Wilkins
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Councillor Nikki Ind
Agenda item :
8 Community Governance Review - Upper Rissington
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Councillor Joe Harris
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Councillor Joe Harris
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor Joe Harris
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor Len Wilkins
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Councillor Nikki Ind
Agenda item :
9 Pay Policy Statement 2025
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Councillor Joe Harris
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Officer
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor Mike Evemy
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor Jeremy Theyer
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Officer
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor Joe Harris
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor Nikki Ind
Agenda item :
10 Amendments to the Constitution - Report of the Constitution Working Group (March 2025)
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Councillor Mike Evemy
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor David Fowles
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor Julia Judd
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Councillor Mike Evemy
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Councillor Julia Judd
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor David Fowles
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Councillor Nikki Ind
Agenda item :
11 Devolution and Local Government Reorganisation
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Councillor David Fowles
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Councillor Joe Harris
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor Tom Stowe
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor Joe Harris
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor Patrick Coleman
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor David Fowles
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor Mike Evemy
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Councillor Paul Hodgkinson
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor Mark Harris
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor Angus Jenkinson
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor Dilys Neill
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor Julia Judd
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Councillor Lisa Spivey
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor Andrea Pellegram
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor Joe Harris
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Councillor Nikki Ind
Agenda item :
11 Devolution and Local Government Reorganisation
Agenda item :
12 Motion A: Farmers Motion
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Councillor Julia Judd
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor Jeremy Theyer
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor Joe Harris
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor Clare Turner
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor Clare Turner
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor Julia Judd
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor David Fowles
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor Angus Jenkinson
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor Nigel Robbins
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor Mike Evemy
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Andrew Brown, Officer
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Councillor Mike Evemy
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Councillor Mark Harris
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor David Cunningham
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor David Cunningham
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor Gina Blomefield
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor Lisa Spivey
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Councillor Julia Judd
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Councillor Angus Jenkinson
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor Patrick Coleman
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Councillor Tom Stowe
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor Jeremy Theyer
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor Julia Judd
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor Joe Harris
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Councillor Nikki Ind
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Webcast Finished
Disclaimer: This transcript was automatically generated, so it may contain errors. Please view the webcast to confirm whether the content is accurate.
Councillor Nikki Ind - 0:00:09
Good afternoon and welcome to this meeting of Cotswold District Council's Fall Councilon Wednesday 19th March 2025. My name is Councillor Nicky Inge and I am
of Council. This will be my last full meeting as Chair of Council and I'd like
to welcome all members, public in attendance and those watching online. You
are very welcome. Members of the public present are entitled to record the
meeting themselves provided this isn't disruptive to our proceedings. For those
watching at home the electronic voting results will be displayed on screen and
will be announced at the end of each vote. Should anything go wrong with the electronic
voting, which cannot be resolved, we will revert to voting by a clear show of hands.
1 Apologies
We move to the agenda. Agenda item 1. Apologies, Nicky, I think we've got some apologies.
Nickie Mackenzie-Daste, Officer - 0:01:14
Yes, we have apologies from Councillor Tristan Wilkinson, Councillor Helen Mansilla, CouncillorTony Dale and Councillor Andrew McLean. Thank you very much and I'd
Councillor Nikki Ind - 0:01:23
just like toadvise members that today the CEO has received a letter from Councillor
Chris Twiles advising him of his resignation from the council with
immediate effect. Declarations of interest. Are there any declarations of
2 Declarations of Interest
interest from members, please. As normal, if you become aware of an interest during
the meeting, then please declare it at that time. Pay policy wording in the case of an
interest. On agenda item 9, the pay policy statement sets out the council's approach
to pay policy in accordance with the requirements of section 38 of the
Localism Act 2011. The purpose of the statement is to provide
transparency regarding the council's approach to setting the pay of its
employees. Should any member wish to raise the pay for specific officer posts
then if necessary I will pause the proceedings to enable the office's
3 Minutes
concerned to leave the room. We move on to agenda item 3, the minutes. So I'm going to
avoid going through page by page but I'd just like to see if anyone has any amendments that
need to be considered to the minutes that have been circulated.
Councillor Bloomfield.
Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:02:49
Sorry, good afternoon and thank you chair on your last occasion of being chair in thisminutes because I wasn't at the last meeting. I think Councillor Harris is
going to give me an answers to my questions and I don't believe I've
received them yet. I have been away so it may be that I've just missed haven't
found them but I would be grateful. Thank you.
Thanks, Councillor Harris. Apologies Councillor Bloomfield. I will
Councillor Joe Harris - 0:03:19
liaise with Democratic Services.We'll make sure we get you an answer if you haven't had one. Thank you.
Councillor Nikki Ind - 0:03:25
Thank you very much. So then if I have no amendments to these minutes, so the meetingheld on the 24th of February 2025, can I please have a proposer to accept those minutes?
Councillor Evermy and a seconder please. Councillor Fowls.
So the recommendation is that for Council accept the minutes of the meeting on the 24th
of February 2025 as a correct record. I now call for the vote to be opened. Thank
Thank you, Keira.
Councillor Nigel Robbins - 0:03:57
Councillor Nikki Ind - 0:04:54
Thank you very much colleagues. That was 23 -4 with three abstentions.Councillor Nigel Robbins - 0:04:58
Thank you.4 Announcements from the Chair, Leader or Chief Executive
Councillor Nikki Ind - 0:05:04
We move on to announcements from the Chair, Leader and Chief Executive at Agenda Item 4.So from myself. I would like to remind members of the need to be disciplined with their comments,
avoid repetition during debate and be succinct with any questions that they raise.
The length of the meeting is capped at four hours and after three hours have elapsed,
if we get to that point, we will take a vote on whether to continue for the final hour.
After four hours we will finish the item we are dealing with in the normal way, but any
other remaining business will fall. We will also have a comfort break at approximately
two hours. The break will not count towards the time limit.
Firstly, I begin my Chair's announcements with the sad news of the passing of our Officer
and colleague Daisy Catterill. Our thoughts are with Daisy's family and friends at such
a difficult time.
Now we move on to the Unsung Heroes Award for March. There are three awards this month
and I am pleased to say that all award winners are with us today to collect their well -deserved
Awards. I will give some brief details of the amazing work that they do in our
communities and then ask them to come forward to receive their badge and
certificate. Firstly, Jerry Watkins. It's a privilege to recognize someone as kind
and selfless as Jerry who runs the Food for Thought van, providing food, hot
drinks, clothing and sleeping bags to all those in need, all donated and all given
freely. But his support goes beyond that. On a freezing night he didn't just offer
a warm drink, he found safe accommodation for a homeless man showing his deep
commitment to helping others. This is not new for Jerry. He previously led the
Yellow Bus project and has spent years finding ways to support the homeless and
vulnerable. His dedication and compassion truly makes a difference. Jerry on
behalf of everyone here and the countless people you've helped, thank you.
You're an inspiration.
Then we have a couple of runners.
We have Michael Smedley and the Repair Cafe volunteers.
Michael and his team at St James' Church Repair Cafe in Chipping Camden
have created a welcoming space where the community can connect over a cup of tea
while saving cherished items from landfill.
Through their skill and dedication, they help residents avoid unnecessary costs,
reduce waste and preserve items of sentimental value.
The cafe's impact is both social and environmental.
Volunteers not only repair and renew items, but also share their knowledge,
empowering others to maintain and fix their belongings.
For those serving tea and cakes to the skilled repairers and organisers,
every team member plays a vital role.
Thanks to Michael's leadership and outreach, the cafe continues to thrive,
bringing people together and promoting sustainability.
Their work is an inspiring example of how a community can really make a difference.
Then we have Joanne Moore.
I also want to say a huge thank you to Jo and her amazing incredible team of volunteers
for the work that they do through Feed the Community.
Every month they provide a free two course hot meal for families and individuals who
who are struggling, giving them the chance to enjoy something so many of us take for
granted, eating out and sharing a meal with others.
Jo believes that everyone should have that experience and thanks to her and her team,
many people do.
But their kindness doesn't stop there, Jo also organises a Christmas party, complete
with gifts for the children and makes sure families receive Easter eggs at Easter, bringing
joy and a real sense of community to those who need it most.
Jo and her volunteers have been running this scheme for years, giving their time and effort
and hearts to make a difference.
Their dedication is truly inspiring and we are so grateful for everything they do.
I'd just like to say that all nominations receive a letter thanking people for their
important work that they do and it's valued throughout our district and I encourage other
communities to let us know about these important people.
Now I invite Jerry, Michael and Joe to come forward.
Thank you very much. Thank you for everything you do.
Thank you very much.
Thank you very much. What a great example of our community.
Councillor Nikki Ind - 0:11:01
And now for my final announcements. As an Independent District Councillor, I am proudto represent the residents of Tepary East and Rural and to know that when I asked the
residents to put their trust in me to ensure their voices in the far south of the district
were heard that they elected me and that you colleagues have put your trust in me as your
chair for the last two years.
We have important considerations on this agenda,
including devolution and how this will
happen for us in Gloucestershire.
We must ensure that whatever happens,
local voices are not lost amongst these changes,
particularly in rural areas.
But I don't think I would be here
without a sad and difficult personal experience, which
introduced me to a very young Joe Harris in 2012. As many of you know, whilst my
father was receiving palliative care at home over Christmas, my parents home was
flooded. From Christmas Eve, this young man tried to help us as best he could,
calling every day to make sure that we were managing. His concern and commitment
for his residence and district were very clear from the start and I would like to
thank him for the work he has undertaken as leader since 2019 and for encouraging me to
stand as a Councillor, even though I wasn't interested in joining his party. I do appreciate
the support. Thank you, Joe. As Chair, I was delighted on Sunday to represent the District
Council at the Tewksbury Borough Mayor's Charity Concert, a wonderful evening, entertaining,
very entertaining and raising much needed funds for his local charities.
And I will be attending the Cotswold Homes and Interiors Festival once again on Saturday
29th March in Cirencester. And my final civic duties over the next month will include the
annual legal service and declaration of office for the High Sheriff of Gloucestershire at
Gloucester Cathedral and the Royal Society of St George's Day Service in Gloucester.
Finally, I would just like to thank my family and you all colleagues for your support over
the last two years. As I have said before, for this ordinary
siren sister girl born in the Queen's Hospital who attended Stratton and Deer Park schools
with no university, it has been an honour and pleasure to represent our district and
to see my name on that board at the back of this chamber, with so many others who have
worked so hard for our district over the years.
To all those young people out there,
if you really want something, go and get it.
Don't let anyone or anything put you off.
Anything is possible.
You can make a difference.
Thank you.
APPLAUSE
Councillor Joe Harris - 0:14:03
Over to you, Councillor Harris.Thank you. I'm sure the whole council will join me in thanking you for your service to our council.
You've been a superb chair, you've been firm but fair. Never stopped fearing you.
But, you know, I know the whole house. The whole house! God!
I know the whole chamber.
To be fair, I was listening to PMQs before on the way here.
So there you go.
Now, I know the whole council will join me in thanking you for your service.
And I know you care passionately not just about Tethbury, but also about the whole Cotswolds.
And it's been great that you've been able to sort of live that being chair of the council.
Can I also say a massive congratulations to our three
recipients of awards, you know, tremendous pillars
of our community.
I know Joe Moore and Jerry Watkins in particular,
they do fantastic work in our community.
And it shows, doesn't it, how much we rely on the voluntary
and community sector in our district to ease some of the
burden that we face as a local authority.
So we thank them for everything that they do,
all three of them.
Can I also just bring Councillor's attention to the lift scheme that we recently adopted?
In a nutshell, it does take a bit of unpacking sometimes, as Councillor Bloomer will attest
to, but it's very simple.
We have a piece of software that allows this council to link people up to the benefits
and welfare entitlements that they are entitled to.
And we're pleased to say that 1 .3 million pounds,
nearly 1 .3 million pounds has been given to older people in
our district, perhaps struggling with the cut to the winter fuel
allowance or just struggling more generally with the
cost of living.
So that is a great success story.
And I want to say a massive thank you in particular to
Councillor Bloomer and the team that you're working with for
really spearheading this.
I know at first some of us were a bit skeptical and they had to
displayed some of our officers to sign on the dotted line,
but it's testament to the hard work and effort
that you've put into making that happen.
Want to end on a sad note, and of course,
talk about the sad passing of Daisy Catterill.
I don't think tragedy begins to cut it, does it?
Just age 25, cut off in the prime of her life.
She unfortunately suffered a rare autoimmune disease
off the back of a virus.
totally unexpected and you know totally totally shocking. As has been said she was
a contract management officer here at Cotswold District Council as part of our
waste and recycling team and as you can probably imagine with the changes to the
waste service in the past year 18 months it was an incredibly busy time for Daisy.
She had quite a few, well lots of complaints from residents who were
actually quite often the first line they'd be the first person that the
public would speak to, but she did it with a positive outlook.
She did it in a really lovely manner.
And quite often she had me, Mike, other Councillors,
firemen, going, what's happening on this?
She'd do it in a calm, reassured way and always be
nice about it.
And to me, that sort of just summed Daisy up, you know,
that positive outlook.
You know, her name really was a sort of, you know,
it summed her up, actually.
So it's an absolute tragedy.
And I know that it's felt so, it's felt a lot by people in
this chamber and throughout the organisation and our community.
I saw her two weeks before she died.
I was taking my grandmother to Cheltenham Hospital.
We were in the waiting room and I had such a lovely conversation with her.
You could tell she was in pain and discomfort but nothing led you to believe that it was
so serious that just two weeks later she would lose her life.
And from that interaction I had with her at a time when she wasn't feeling well,
she was positive, she was absolutely lovely.
And it was an incredible loss to our community in Saksurni.
And of course, our colleagues here at Cotswold District Council.
So if you don't mind, please join me in a minute of silence with the chair's
permission, thank you.
Thank you.
.
Councillor Nikki Ind - 0:19:25
Thank you, colleagues. Mr Weaver, over to you.CEO Rob Weaver - 0:19:31
Thank you, Chair. And again, I would just like to add from an officer's perspective,my condolences to the friends and family of Daisy Catterill, a much admired and valued
colleague and friend to many here at CDC and Publica. As the leader said, Daisy worked
within the contracts management team, primarily in relation to waste and recycling and many
of you will have had contact with Daisy over the years and as the leaders testified she
was always happy to help resolve problems and complaints in an efficient and enthusiastic
way. The memorial service at the Bingham Hall yesterday was a fitting and lovely tribute
to her life and as you can imagine it was standing room only. Each of the orders of
The service had one of these little daisy pin badges, which I know we were all wearing at the service and will continue to wear that,
because one of the slogans that came out of the session yesterday was,
if you're not sure and you want to go for something, do it for Daisy.
And should be very much missed by us all.
I'd like to also add my thanks on behalf of the senior officers and the officers here at the council and public here to Councillor Infer,
Stirling workers are our chair. We've much appreciated the role and the way that you've
carried out the role so thank you very much. And again as we heard at the last meeting this will
be Councillor Harris's last council meeting as leader and so again I'd just like to thank
Councillor Harris for his leadership and devotion to duty that I think has seen the council go from
strength to strength. Personally I've very much enjoyed working with him as leader and valued our
conversations and working with him and particularly to help set the direction and the forward
direction of the council, working hard to shape the council's corporate plan.
Political insights that he's been able to give on all things local government that's
come as being vice -chair of the LGA have been particularly valuable and whatever role he
takes up following May I will still be badgering you to get insights in terms of what's happening
in the world of devolution from the LGA. So again, on my behalf, Councillor Harris and
the senior managers, thank you very much indeed for the leadership and direction you've shown
us. As the chair announced, I received a letter from former Councillor Chris Twales and I
can advise all members that as your returning officer, there will be a by -election for the
seat of TETBRI and Uptom to seek to elect his successor on the 1st of May. Finally,
I'd just like to welcome Matt Abbott who's sitting at the back of the room as our new head of communications
Matt welcome to your first council meeting
I know that Matt will absolutely complement Kirsty and Rachel and the existing comms team that we've got
I wish him all the best in his endeavors great to have you on board
And finally the council will be celebrating resin red nose day this Friday 21st
So if anybody's in the building there will be a cake sale on the balcony
And where it in red is very much the theme
So if you are in the building or in the vicinity on Friday, please do come along.
Thanks very much, Jen.
Thank you, Mr Weaver.
Councillor Nikki Ind - 0:22:37
We move on to Agenda Item 5, Public Questions.5 Public Questions
I don't think we've got anybody here that wishes to say anything.
Nope.
6 Member Questions
So we'll move on to Agenda Item 6, Member Questions.
So the member questions that have been submitted have been responded to in writing.
These are on the desks and on the website. The questions on the agenda are presented
in the order in which they were received. Each questioner will be asked whether they
have a supplementary question, one minute, which must arise out of the original question
or the response. I will then invite the cabinet member to respond to each supplementary question
and they will have two minutes to respond. So the first question came from Councillor
Bloomfield to Councillor Layton cabinet member for housing and planning on action
following the Great Water motion approved in September 2023.
Now Councillor Layton's not here. Councillor Harris do you have a supplementary?
Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:23:38
Yes and thank you chair and thank you Councillor Harris for standing in forCouncillor Layton. Thank Councillor Layton for her answer. As everyone here
appreciates, including the current Minister for the
Environment, Steve Reid.
He's warned that if we don't start using our water resources
more carefully, we will be in danger of having to have shared
baths and bottled water delivered to our houses.
Sir James Bergen, when Chief Executive of the Environment
Agency, said at a conference in 2019,
water wastage should be as socially unacceptable as blowing
smoke in the face of a baby.
It is excellent that most of the water reduction measures I mentioned will be incorporated
in the new local plan.
I would like to add that smart water meters should also be included rather than standard
ones because most of the leaks happen within a house.
My supplementary question is really about what we can do, advice we can give owners
of existing residential properties
on improving their water use, reducing it,
and also having the grey water systems,
which were approved before, but it's actually trying to do,
helping them to save water.
It will reduce the flooding too, because the less water we use,
it will also have an impact on the flooding.
Thank you.
That was the first thing.
Thank you.
Councillor Joe Harris - 0:25:05
Councillor George raises an incredibly important point.Water leakage and the use of water is a, sorry,
I think Councillor Bloomfield has made a really important point.
Water leakage and scarcity of water is a huge issue.
It strangles the economy.
It holds up development in some parts of the country.
And we really need a national view to try and solve this issue.
I know the proposed schemes that have been meted include water transfer, which could
see something like the Cotswold Canals used as an opportunity to take water from one side
of the country to the other.
That should absolutely be explored.
In terms of what this council can do, we must absolutely encourage residents to better use
water, which is why it's really important we have a well -resourced and well -staffed
communications team.
And I know that Councillor Blomfield will welcome the investment in the communications
team.
And this is a, I'm sure this is a campaign that they will be able to take up in the coming
months.
Councillor Nikki Ind - 0:26:04
Thank you.The second question comes from Councillor Stowe to Councillor Harris on whether the
council has stopped installing new street signs.
Councillor Stowe do you have a supplementary question?
Councillor Tom Stowe - 0:26:18
Yes I do, thank you chair and thank you leader for your response.My initial question was a direct question that I'd received from residents in Mickleton
so I'm sure they'll be reassured in part by your answer.
I understand that there is a master spreadsheet outlining street sign installs and work in
progress across the district. Would the leader agree to share the contents of
this spreadsheet with members so we can see for ourselves the progress and
activity in our own wards and specifically the wreckage of the damaged
Ballard's Close Street sign in Mickleton was collected by Ubico last year in
July. Nearly nine months later there is no sign of a replacement. Please can you
commit to finally getting a replacement installed within six weeks of today.
Thank you.
Councillor Joe Harris - 0:27:01
I'm not going to put a time scale on it,but we will certainly make sure that if it's been missing for a
long time, we'll make sure it's top of the priority list.
So we will raise that with David,
the Deputy Chief Executive, and I'm sure he'll be able to,
he'll be able to chase.
But, yeah, street signs are part of the public furniture.
They're important in terms of the street scene.
And of course, we want to make sure that where they're damaged,
missing, or just old and knackered,
they are replaced and yeah I'm pleased that we're not having questions about
Councillor Nikki Ind - 0:27:35
the design I think that's finally been settled. Thank you and on to questionthree which comes from Councillor Cawe to Councillor Juliet Layton which I'm
assuming Councillor Harris will pick up again. On the problems experienced with
management companies regarding open spaces on new developments. Councillor
Councillor Daryl Corps - 0:27:54
Cawe do you have a supplementary? Yes I do, thank you Councillor Layton for yourThank you Councillor Harris for picking up this question supplementary
question today. I mean it's obviously a shame that nothing's really going to be
able to change here in the situation with their management companies. I
appreciate Councillor Layton has reminded me that the local plan updates
is set to require developers to provide more details and offer the open spaces
to parish councils which already happens at the moment anyway I believe. So again
it's not really changed there. I think the Stratford plan that I'm not sure if
Councillor Harris may be aware of it, I know Councillor Layton is, that seems a
little bit more robust and actually putting that into place at the planning
process timeline. Another question, so my question is I believe
previously Councillor Cox -Coomb put a motion in requesting £25 ,000 to be put
side to put research into what could be done on expediating the adoption parish
council, district council of these open spaces and I just wanted to ask and I've
never seen this this report and does this report exist and will the
Councillor Joe Harris - 0:29:10
councillor responsible be able to publish it for members please.Thank you councillor Court. I know a piece of work was undertaken but it was a
get a written follow -up to that part of the question.
But thank you for raising the issue.
I know these management companies on new estates,
you know, they're the new rip -off merchants, aren't they?
They are disgraceful.
And I think government needs to act to legislate to make sure
that this doesn't happen.
We've got examples all across the Cotswolds,
down in Tethbury, Sire and Sisbo,
I know in Morton up in your patch, you know,
of residents being out of pocket and ultimately a service
not being delivered.
So I know in Kings Hill Meadow here in Sire and Cessna,
10 years after the last dwelling was built,
we're still waiting for the management company to be handed
over to residents.
And residents are quite rightly asking, well,
we're not going to take it on if half the works haven't
been completed.
So absolutely something does need to be done.
And please, our MPs are taking this up as well.
I know Roz Savage, MP, has a petition at present raising this
issue and she'll be raising it with ministers.
I know it's an issue that Jeffrey Clifton -Brown has
questioned about in the past.
So we hope that our MPs will continue pushing for action.
I'm pleased that the Deputy Prime Minister has outlined some
initial steps to try and get across this issue,
but much more needs to be done to ensure that residents aren't
out of pocket.
And I have to say, as somebody who might well be buying my
first home in the next few years,
it puts me off buying a home and a new development altogether.
So, again, further pricing people out of local ownership.
So, Councilor Caul, thank you for raising the issue.
Incredibly important.
And we're going to get a follow -up on that piece of work,
because I remember the motion and remember the debate we had at the time. Thank you.
Councillor Nikki Ind - 0:30:46
Thank you, Councillor Harris.So that concludes member questions.
7 Publica Transition Plan - Phase 2
We move on to agenda item 7, the public transition plan phase 2.
So here we're going to consider the document, public transition plan for phase 2 of council services.
So this is going to be proposed by Councillor Harris. Over to you, Councillor Harris.
Councillor Joe Harris - 0:31:09
Thank you very much.I will be brief in my comments because I want to hand over to
the Chief Executive who will be able to go over some of the
finder points in a bit more detail and give you a much more
comprehensive update than I.
But really just a reminder as to why we are doing this.
We know that for years we weren't,
well there was a feeling that we weren't getting the best value
for money from Publica and it was quite hard actually
to scrutinize.
It was quite hard to prove that we were getting good value for
money from Publica.
Publica was set up to fill a purpose.
It was set up to share services amongst councils and really to
reduce the workloads of each of those by merging staff and
providing much more lean and efficient services on some of
those statutory services that we provide.
However, we have had material change in that time.
We've had political change at all three of the councils that
buy into Publica.
Each of those had different diverging plans.
They had a greater need for Publica to step up, to help place shape.
And ultimately, that put strain on Publica.
So as a reminder, we are doing this because we want to improve services.
We want to have more control over our staff and the work that they do.
And ultimately, we mustn't forget this, this is about outcomes for our residents.
Our residents must see better services as a result of this move.
So that is the background.
We've had our first phase.
I think despite it being brand new and challenging, I think Rob and David and Angela have done
a fantastic job in overseeing phase one.
It's been smooth.
I know staff have appreciated coming back to Council's side or coming to Council's side
full stop.
So thank you for making sure that services didn't fall over.
Of course there are teething problems that are always going to be, but I think phase
one has been really effective.
And phase two takes us another step on that journey.
It helps us retain some of those services that are really key to place shaping and to
delivering for our residents.
So Rob, I think now is a good opportunity for you to talk us through some of the detail
and give us an overview.
Thank you.
CEO Rob Weaver - 0:33:23
Thank you very much, chair and leader, happy to do so.Members will see that this in front of you is now the detailed transition plan phase
two.
There's a few headlines which I'd just like to bring to members' attentions.
Firstly, the benefit of a detailed phase one approach means you can learn lessons and you
can refine subsequent stages.
As the leader alluded to, one of the things which we've done, which I oversaw, was a staff
engagement survey.
So the 75 staff that transferred as part of phase one were asked for their thoughts about
what went well, what we could improve and ultimately we used that staff engagement survey
as a way of fine -tuning phase two.
So I'm very pleased to report that on the whole the staff were happy with the leadership
shown both by the councils and publica.
They were happy with the communication that they had both from the councils and publica
and it was nice that the suggestions around how we could refine phase 2
were very much fine tweaks rather than us getting anything fundamentally wrong.
So for me as your chief executive that is very comforting to hear
because we're embarking on phase 2 now which
is both more complex and potentially more challenging
than phase 1. So having the information from staff
that have chipped across as part of phase 1 has been incredibly helpful.
Why is phase 2 more complex and potentially challenging?
or the majority of the roles within phase two are known as fragmented posts.
So whilst the posts within phase one were essentially officer FTEs, full -time equivalents,
that worked solely for one council or another whilst being employed by Publica, their directive
focus was to, in this case, CDC, or to West Oxfordshire or to Forrester D.
Phase two is more complex because those posts are fragmented, which will require us to think
about, think carefully about how we bring those services back to the council. And in
some cases what we've needed to do is identify how we could create whole posts out of some
of those posts that are currently fragmented. And both Andrew Pollard and Cheryl Sload have
done a great job in terms of leading both the staff and the senior managers through
that process of HR engagement and QP conversations, which has been an incredibly helpful process.
Members will note, and it's deliberate, that there are no structure plans included within the reports in front of you,
and that's because we need to be very careful that we don't inadvertently start conversations that need to be focused very much through HR.
And those chupy conversations are, it's very important that those are led by HR, and that's why you won't see structure charts in front of you.
But rest assured, lots of work has gone on behind the scenes in order to make sure that the structures that we're looking to put in place
will ensure that the businesses and residents and clearly the members of CDC benefit.
The other complexity is local government reorganisation and devolution
and what that has essentially meant in summary is the number of service areas
that are coming across as part of phase two,
I'm referencing the report on page 12, is smaller than originally envisaged.
And the rationale for the list in front of you is those service areas
which are either big spend or political priorities.
And again, I personally ensure that in terms of communicating
to staff, some teams of which we're
expecting to come across as part of phase two,
that if your service isn't on that list,
doesn't mean that you're not providing
a very valuable service.
It just means that there are political priorities
or areas of spend that we need to identify first.
And when we're looking at some of the services
that we're currently sharing with West Oxfordshire,
for example, around environmental health
licensing, there's a further complexity about the fact that that spans two boundaries and
local government reorganisation will play into that.
So the service areas that we'll be coming across is property and estates, waste and
recycling, leisure and contract management and project management.
And waste is our second largest area of spend after Public Urban, we spend nearly nine million
on waste and recycling.
So it's incredibly important for the reasons the leader set out, the council has the autonomy
to set the direction and look at how we can transform those services.
Property and estates are equally important. We know we've got to manage our asset base
very carefully and we know that when it comes to the upkeep and maintenance of this building
along with the Moreton area centre and others, the property and assets and having those under
the council roof is going to be very beneficial. Project management, again, we're looking at
how we can identify the best way of tapping into the resources we have around project
management. Currently project resource is split across the three councils and
clearly the reality there is that the pace of some of our project delivery is
through nobody's particular fault not where we need it to be. I think the
reality of that is that we've got some great project managers but they're able
to dedicate very little very much not much less than two days a week to each
council and when we're looking to drive forward some of those key projects that
has impacted on the pace of delivery. So bringing project management back
Council side will also assist in that process. So the report in front of you very much reflects
the ethos of the Phase 1 transition. It indicates the cost associated with the transition, it
indicates some of the processes that we'll be following through, but hopefully this will
be familiar territory to all members because it does very much mirror the report you would
have had in advance of the November transition last year. Thank you, Chair, I'll leave it
Councillor Nikki Ind - 0:38:55
Thank you.So colleagues, are there any questions for clarity?
In this report?
No?
Yes, Councillor Coleman?
Councillor Patrick Coleman - 0:39:08
Just a brief question.To the Chief Executive, on the last of the bullet points on page 30,
I realise, even though I probably did sit through the,
and contribute to the OVU and scrutiny committee's consideration,
It is not clear to me what straight through processing means, particularly if I try and
think of the alternative.
But I can see that it is a good thing.
Could the chief executive perhaps give an example?
CEO Rob Weaver - 0:39:43
Thank you.Getting through the chair.
Yeah, so I think that's a slightly strange terminology for being able to set the direction
without having to go through multiple channels of either management or other councils.
One of the things which we have struggled with through the current public arrangements
is in order to make any fundamental changes to structures associated with, let's say,
Cotswold District Council, it's been necessary, if not essential, to get sign -off from both
Forest and West Oxfordshire and sometimes in the past there may not have been that same
desire to change in the same way.
So having that more straightforward process in order to make sure
that we can make those decisions as they best reflect CDC's interests will help.
I think that's what that element of the report is driving at.
Thank you.
Councillor Nikki Ind - 0:40:29
Councillor Bloomfield.Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:40:32
Yes, thank you, Chair.Actually on the same page, obviously it's going to be a popular page, page 30,
I just wanted to find out how it was defined whether a person employee was local.
So what proportion were local?
And how the job fair, which was held recently at CDC, I believe,
did that have any success in finding the right employees
which you were seeking?
Thank you.
CEO Rob Weaver - 0:40:58
Yes, thank you for the question.So taking the last point first, the jobs fair was
incredibly successful.
The chair was able to come along to that event.
and we, I think, made five direct offers of employment on the day, which was great.
So what we're looking to do is get another one in the offering and increase the number of service areas that have got a presence at that job fair.
I think in terms of employing locally, it's incredibly important to us if we're looking to set out our priorities that matter to our residents,
that we try and appoint locally as well.
That not only helps with sustainability, but without a shadow of a doubt it improves brand
loyalty because people have a direct affiliation with the area that they're living in and working
in.
I can personally testify to that.
And what we'd like to do there is take opportunities to working with our HR and public colleagues
to maximise our ability to reach out locally and hopefully employ locally as well.
Thank you.
Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:41:56
Thank you for that.Councillor Nikki Ind - 0:42:01
Are there any more questions for clarity? No? I understand Councillor Evmy you'regoing to second this would you like to speak now or reserve your right?
Councillor Mike Evemy - 0:42:11
Councillor Nikki Ind - 0:42:12
I'll second I'll reserve my right please. Thank you. Right on to the debate pleaseCouncillor Stofast.
Councillor Tom Stowe - 0:42:24
Yes thank you chair and I'm sure everybody here knows the Conservativesgroup's position on this process and I appreciate that we may sound like a
broken record at times but that is inevitable when we've consistently raised
concerns only to have them ignored time and time again. Everything that we
predicted would happen has happened and then some. From the outset we
acknowledged that bringing some services back in -house have potential benefits.
These would have to be weighed up against the financial impact and the
risks of the process, risks that ultimately fall on taxpayers and there was simply too
much uncertainty. We urged the council to implement a standstill period to allow officers
from all partner councils to properly assess the risks and establish realistic cost estimates
and budget impacts. These calls were of course ignored.
Here we are now with phase 1 complete. We are dealing with the fallout from this reckless
decision. The cost of the initial transition process continues to spiral.
The ongoing additional cost of delivering services outside of Publica
are currently projected to cost taxpayers an additional 750 ,000
per year. Five times the estimate in the Human Engine report, the report used to
justify this process in the first place. The extent of the impact of this process
was highlighted in the budget papers just last month which stated that the
public of phase 2 transition process was the single biggest threat to this
council's ability to deliver a balanced budget over the coming years. Despite the
gloss and spin the Liberal Democrat administration are trying to put on this
they know that we were right. There is an admission in these papers when taking
learnings from phase 1. They admit the stated objective was announced at a very
early stage, supported only by a high -level study. There was no detailed business case,
due diligence or stakeholder engagement before taking the plunge. They conceived that this
decision was rushed. For a practical point of view, now that Phase
1 is complete, how effective has the process been in addressing the issues outlined at
the start? There are three main areas of concern that this process was hoping to address. Firstly,
recruitment and retention of staff. Despite phase one now being completed
the council is still struggling to recruit staff. Key positions have remained
vacant for months. Staff turnover remains seemingly unchanged so nothing seems to
have been solved here. The other two areas are lumped together as they are
intrinsically linked. Operational agility and delivering on council priorities. The
and its likely disbanding in the coming years, makes this entire transition increasingly
pointless. The additional costs expected from Phase 2 cannot be justified as good value
for taxpayers. Now is the time for this administration to admit to its errors, swallow its pride
and accept it got this wrong. What's done is done and cannot be reversed. Phase 1 is
completed at a huge cost, the impact of which we felt for years to come and shouldered by
residents of the Cotswolds. It's time to sit down with officers from the other
partner councils, put a pause on any remaining plans to continue with phase
two transition and come up with a sensible cost -effective plan to get this
council through the next couple of years. Concentrate our energies and resources
on ensuring that devolution delivers the best possible outcome and we must stop
throwing more good money after bad.
Councillor Nikki Ind - 0:46:09
Thank you very much Councillor Stowe. Over to you Councillor Fowles.Councillor Nikki Ind - 0:46:18
Councillor Patrick Coleman - 0:46:25
Councillor Coleman would you like to go next? Thank you very much chair. What a fine leaderof the opposition we do have.
Not always reality -based, but certainly very emphatic.
And one of the reasons I stood up at this case
is, of all things, the Royal Borough of Windsor and Maidenhead.
Two council meetings ago, I think it was,
they were cited by our leader as a further addition, I think,
to clients of our wonderfully successful,
and I think everybody agrees on this, counter -fraud team.
They were keen to use it.
And then by chance, I came across the problems
at Windsor and Maidenhead.
They're enormous financial difficulties
because they've only recently left Conservative control.
That is to say, in the last couple of years,
where of course we left Conservative control
six years ago.
Why is this matter and where's the parallel?
Well, they followed the same policy
as our Conservative colleagues did for 12 years,
freezing and cutting council tax,
thinking it would make a huge difference at elections,
I don't know, thinking it would mean better value.
Well, Windsor and Maidenhead did the same.
They didn't have a publicer type thing to deal with that we have but they were warned
by their accountants and auditors, certainly by the auditors, that they were by not increasing
the council tax but freezing it, putting themselves at financial risk.
The answer of the then leader, and I trust the BBC report and I don't think they would
disagree, they got this golf course that they were going to give, that they owned, that
they were about to give planning permission to and that would pay off their problems.
I should have mentioned in passing that they think they are a unitary authority which makes
their approach even more risky.
But fortunately we got out of that similar problem because we had the same policy of
freezing and cutting four years earlier than they did.
They have ended up with enormous problems and debts because it looks like they won't
get very much money or as much as they hoped for their golf course.
Where I would suggest that we could take more notice of our opposition leader is if we could
realistically believe that if we hadn't tackled this problem of recruitment that somehow things
would be better.
Members may remember that we were recently advised of the meeting of a very substantial
three -figure, six -figure sum being the cost of agency employment, which has been necessary
particularly in the planning department and particularly for senior roles for some time.
Does pulling out of the public a change or even abandoning it at an earlier stage, is
there any way people could think that that would improve matters?
To sum up, the majority of posts in this council, I believe, are at least of graduate qualification
to apply.
And it beggars belief to think that people would want to come and work for a council
where they are going to be denied a decent pension, prevented from joining the local
government pension scheme, when communication here is difficult and as graduate qualification
they can be expected to work out that that's a bad deal.
So we come back to the original problem. This was an attempt to save money on a short -term
basis. It did save a little bit of money. It's led to lengthy management chains which
are very difficult to get results, particularly out of UBICO, to go through publicly to get
to them.
And it's my contention that the specialist advice from our consultant that we had on
this and leadership and experience was exemplary.
And I was very impressed with the presentations I attended so far.
And rather than suggesting that there's some kind of major problem we should stop now,
I think we should be aware of how well that consultant and their team have performed.
Councillor Nikki Ind - 0:50:10
Thank you. Thank you councillor Coleman. Councillor Slater.Councillor Tony Slater - 0:50:17
Thank you chair. I'm not quite sure what the point of that was but going back towhen this program was first proposed and using my previous business
experience I came up with a very quick fact packet costing for the work.
you I'm sure you remember it well. Would the leader now admit that I was
actually quite accurate in my original estimates that the full transition cost
would be in the region of two to three million pounds despite repeatedly
Councillor Nikki Ind - 0:50:55
denying this in every meeting that I quoted that for. Thank you. Thank youCouncillor Joe Harris - 0:51:01
Councillor Slater. Councillor Harris. Obviously no, obviously no. He mentionedHe mentions fag packets. Unfortunately most of the contributions and amendments from the Conservatives usually are written on the back of a fag packet.
Councillor Nikki Ind - 0:51:12
Councillor Jenkinson.Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 0:51:16
Thank you, Chair.Councillor Coleman reminds me of the question of the importance of having the right officers to be able to do the things that we do.
And one of the most important things that we do is manage planning and compliance.
Earlier on, we were correctly treated by Councillor Caul to a question regarding an important
issue of managing our estates when they are developed.
And I agree with him that that's a really important subject, and I've told him so, as
I've told this council.
And I'm sure we all agree.
But in order to do that, you actually have to have a team of competent people.
And that means you have to recruit them and maintain them.
We have been running our planning department for some time with an interim manager because
we had difficulty recruiting such a person.
We have been short staffed in the planning department.
Everybody knows that we have been short staffed.
I have been leading a project of exactly the kind that Councillor Cawre is concerned with
to transform one of the estates in Moreton in Marsh with the help of a team of officers.
That team of officers is substantially based on new officers who have been recruited post
this process of transition.
It is because of this that we are able to do a better job than we could before and we
can take on other projects.
What I commend to the members of this Council
is the fact that this is a policy that enables
us to actually do a good job.
I hope it will be continued into the future
as we go forward into a new regime post -2027, 2028,
and so on.
But in the meantime, it is right that we
get a good team of officers and we look after them
in the right way.
Thank you.
Councillor Nikki Ind - 0:53:25
Councillor Dilys Neill - 0:53:31
Thank You councillor Jenkinson. Councillor Neill. Yes thank you so much I was justlistening with interest to everybody of course but also councillor Stowe and
councillor Slater and I'm just looking at the figures they've quoted which
seem to be the figures that the transition will cost across the whole
three counties rather than just for this county so a district rather forest West
oxygen Cotswold I think we ought to make that clear from anybody who's listening
in case they think that it's you know that just Cotswold that are having to
face the cost it's it's a cost that's been discussed with all the with all the
the other districts and the other districts also think it's worth making
the transition and my understanding is that it would be quite difficult for us
to go back on the agreement which we have with our other district councils and
we need to be very clear about that.
Councillor Nikki Ind - 0:54:24
Thank You councillor Neal. Is there anybody else who wishes to speak in theCouncillor Tom Stowe - 0:54:33
debate? Yes as always mentioned just there I would like to clarify that is myunderstanding that the overall transition cost is already at 1 .1 million
I believe there's 500 million in a reserve for the actual transition and
then there is 300 ,000 pounds of redundancy in associated costs for
phase 1 and the same for phase 2. Maybe the Deputy CEO could confirm those figures.
Not 500 million.
Councillor Nikki Ind - 0:55:05
Are there any other members wishing to speak in the debate? Over to you, Councillor Evermy.Councillor Mike Evemy - 0:55:15
Thank you, Chair. I rise to second the resolutions on page 9. This is a really important decisionand I'd like to remind members that this administration has been in place for six years. We worked
with Publica through the structure and tried to make that structure work for the first
four years of this administration.
We got it into the best place I think we could,
but we recognised there were failings within that structure.
And clearly our fellow partner councils within the public
who own public recognise that too,
particularly when they had changes of political control
in 2022 in West Oxfordshire in 2023 in the Forest of Dean.
Fundamentally, the public model does not work.
No one else has taken on the same model.
It's no reflection on the standard of offices.
We have some excellent offices within Publica.
But it was set up.
It's a cost -saving exercise.
And it's failed, frankly.
And the challenges that come from Councillor Stowe about costs, and he likes talking about
costs a lot, are fundamentally the cost.
You have costs all the time when you're managing staffing.
And significant costs clearly are paying people a local government pension scheme where the contribution is 20 %
rather than paying them a scheme where the contribution is 5%.
We've heard from
Councillor Jenkinson and
Councillor
Coleman the impact
We have seen the positive impact in only a few months in planning where we are now being
successful in recruiting planning officers that we have struggled for years to recruit
under the publica regime.
I would say to colleagues, this decision isn't an easy one.
I accept there are large amounts of money involved in anything that has to do with our
staff.
It's our biggest expenditure, but it's obviously our biggest asset of the staff that work for us.
And I'm clear that bringing those staff back in this phase, and it is a slightly reduced scope with regards to looking at the impact of local government reorganisation.
and our officers led by our chief executive working with Andrew Pollard, the director,
have looked very carefully at what they believe they should put before us in terms of to meet
the objectives that this council has within its corporate plan within the financial envelope
that's available. I don't accept and I will reject the assertion that the leader of the
from the 24th of February that this public transition is the single biggest
threat to the council's finances. It isn't. The single biggest threats for
this council's finances is the potential reduction of millions of pounds of
grant from the government which we're facing. We can cost, we can cover the cost
of this, we are covering the cost of this in our budget that we passed just three
weeks ago. So whilst these amounts of money are significant, they're not the biggest threat
to this Council's finances. And we believe that if we want to be a successful Council,
if we want to deliver the services for our residents for however long we remain here,
then we need to move ahead with the transition. We need to bring back the services that we
have outlined within this report, property and estates, so that we can make the decisions
around our assets and implement them quickly. We know we're going to need that where we
are financially. Waste, as the Chief Executive has said, we spend getting on for £9 million
on our waste service. It makes absolute sense to me that we ran the contract for that within
the Council rather than within Publica, they're managing Yubico. Leisure, similarly. And project
management because if we want to make substantial changes to the way in which we operate, we
need officers that are experts in making project management changes.
So I would say to colleagues, this has been very carefully thought through.
I'd like to thank colleagues on the VOVI and Scrutiny Committee, which I attended a couple
of weeks ago, and they asked lots of very pertinent questions and we had a discussion
for getting on for an hour.
I think that was very valuable in advance of this meeting.
But I would urge colleagues to support this public transition
We need to move ahead with it and to deliver the residents of the Cotswolds. Thank you chair
Councillor Nikki Ind - 1:00:13
Thank You councillor ever mean before I go to councillor Harris to sum up cancer stay you referred to you'd like to respondCouncillor Tom Stowe - 1:00:21
Yes, Thank You chaircouncillor ever me has just said that the single biggest threats of this council's ability to deliver a balanced budgets over the
MTFS period is not the case. Well that is outlined and it was a statement directly
from the budget papers last month which he actually proposed. So I thought that
would be interesting if he could just clarify that. Councillor Harris also
stated in response to Councillor Slater's question that the cost to this
Council of this whole transition would not exceed two million pounds. I think
it's fairly clear it is. 1 .1 million in transition and 750 ,000 a year in
additional running costs. So if you can just clarify that as well please he's
misleading.
Councillor Nikki Ind - 1:01:00
Are you looking to respond?Councillor Harris would you like to sum up?
Councillor Joe Harris - 1:01:10
Yeah well you know it's the usual bluff and bluster isn't it we hear from the membersoffice members opposite yeah absolutely nothing positive to say about the district absolutely
nothing positive to say about any of the work that the council is doing and struggling for
a cause or an issue to try and get their teeth into and I think they're quite frankly I'm
I'm quite glad to be taking a step back from the leadership
role, because actually it is quite tiring after six years of
hearing the same old broken record, not my words, yours.
You know, it is pretty tedious.
We have fantastic officers of this council.
They have been hamstrung within Publica.
We've recognized that.
The other councils have recognized that.
And we are in this with our partners and colleagues.
And the reality is, the reality is we are too late with our
partners to now go, okay, well, yes, we'll just keep the status
because the other councils have decided and they're acting and they're voting with their
feet. So if we don't take this move we're going to be in an even worse position. The
truth is, Publica failed to deliver what it was set out to do. It failed to deliver the
necessary savings that this council needs. And we found that in the last few years trying
to plan a budget. When you're trying to get figures out of Publica and they can't give
you them, it's not transparent and it's not good value for taxpayers. And ultimately that
That is the point, isn't it?
We are here to get good value for money for our taxpayers.
And this is the way that we can do that.
It gives us more control over our services,
which gives us more control over our finances,
which gives us more control over the budgets we set,
and gives us more control over the services that we provide for
residents and that local residents rely on.
So please, support this.
It has been a success story so far led by our brilliant team of officers.
And while the future of district councils is, of course,
unclear at the minute, this gives us an opportunity to have
a really good go at the last few years, if indeed we are to be
wound up.
It gives us a great opportunity to further deliver for
residents, of course, taking account of the difficult
financial challenges that we make.
It allows us to respond to those and to deliver for residents.
A lot of hard work has gone into this from officers,
from members of all of the councils,
And it would be a crying shame at this point to hit the abort button and actually I think it would be a scandal
Because it would not get good value for taxpayers and it would waste taxpayers money. Ultimately. We've got a direction of travel
We are going in it and we won't be turned
Councillor Nikki Ind - 1:03:39
Thank you very much siteso colleagues and I
Plan to read the resolutions out and the vote to be taken on block unless you're going to request a separate votes
So the recommendations are that Council, number one, approve the implementation of phase two
of the public transition on the basis of the phase two transition plan.
Two, delegate to the Chief Executive in consultation with the Leader of the Council the decision
to deal with any final detail matters arising from the phase two transition plan.
3. Delegate authority to the Director of Governance in liaison with the leader to update the constitution
by making any consequential changes required as a result of the Phase 2 of the Publica
transition. 4. Carry out a budget rebasing for the 2026 -27
financial year so that the funding provided to Publica is proportionate to the services
received. Thank you very much. We will open the voting now.
Councillor Daryl Corps - 1:04:54
Councillor Len Wilkins - 1:04:59
.Councillor Nikki Ind - 1:05:57
Thank you, colleagues.That's 24 and nine against.
That's carried.
8 Community Governance Review - Upper Rissington
We move on to agenda item number eight, the community governance review for Upper Islington.
This is to approve the final recommendations of the community governance review for Upper
Risington.
This is going to be proposed by Councillor Harris.
Councillor Harris, over to you.
Councillor Joe Harris - 1:06:20
Thank you, Chair.Right, now we're on to the exciting stuff, the community governance review in Upper Risington.
So in a nutshell, this council has the ability to amend parish council boundaries, and that
is what we're being asked to do today in the case of Upper Risington and Great Risington.
So in a nutshell there is a skate park which is located in the Great Risington
parish however Upper Risington parish council built and maintained the skate
park and is used by people in Upper Risington so this is quite a simple
request to consider transferring the land which is in Great Risington and
moving it over to Upper Risington. We've gone out to consultation on this, there are no
objections I think everybody's in support and yes I would like to propose
to you that we do this we don't want we don't want people we don't want that
rising up a Rosington Dewey I don't know if the monitoring officer wants to raise
anything but this is pretty straightforward isn't it I think
Councillor McLean was going to second but he's not here so fantastic yeah I will defer then to Councillor Turner.
Thank you.
Thank you.
There's not a great deal to add there.
Councillor Nikki Ind - 1:07:33
Councillor Joe Harris - 1:07:33
The consultation process was very straightforward.All parties involved are in agreement, so I'm very happy to second this.
Councillor Nikki Ind - 1:07:40
Thank you, Councillor Turner.Are there any, anyone wish to speak on this matter?
No.
Okay.
Okay, I'm assuming you don't want to sum up Councillor Harris.
Councillor Joe Harris - 1:07:58
Well, would you like to?Would you like me to? No.
Thank you.
Councillor Nikki Ind - 1:08:04
Colleagues.Right, so the recommendation is that the Council resolves to approve the final recommendations in relation to the Upper Risington and Great Risington,
authorize the head of legal services to make a reorganization of community
governance order to implement the changes agreed by the council. I'd like
to open the voting. Thank you, Kiera.
Councillor Len Wilkins - 1:08:32
.Councillor Nikki Ind - 1:09:15
Thank you very much colleagues. That's 28 for... Thank you very much. That's carried.9 Pay Policy Statement 2025
We move on to agenda item number nine, the pay policy statements. So before we start
this item, please can I establish whether any members will wish to discuss the terms
and conditions of individual officer posts? And if so, then there may be officers who
need to leave the room for this item no perfect okay this is again councillor
Councillor Joe Harris - 1:09:54
Harris over to you councillor Harris yeah this is one of those items thatusually is a formality at the end of a budget meeting however we were hearing
it today so I'm going to pass over I think to either Rob or to David just to
see if they want to add anything this is it is pretty straightforward it is just
proving quite standard document. John, we've got John here. John, now's your time to shine.
Where are we putting John?
Hot suit.
Absolutely. We haven't got a spotlight.
Thank you.
So John, if you can just give us a summary of what this is and what's different.
Officer - 1:10:34
Yes, the report is very much as written. It's a routine one, although it's beenheavily amended this year. I'd like to thank Angela for helping this and actually scrubbing it up and making it a little bit more formal and contain a little bit more information.
It does relate just to the offices of the Council and the pay bandings are
there as well for everybody to see. And if this is passed today this will be
loaded up onto the website. And you will see in there there's certain
things like the commitment to the living weight. And basically I'm happy to take
any questions that you may have on the paper as presented. Thank you.
Councillor Nikki Ind - 1:11:24
Any questions from anybody?No, it's looking like no questions.
If you want to just stay there John, just in case something comes up.
I understand Councillor Efrem, you're going to second this? Would you like to speak?
Councillor Mike Evemy - 1:11:41
I'll just say so formally, Chair.Councillor Nikki Ind - 1:11:45
So no debate from anybody? Councillor Thayer.Councillor Jeremy Theyer - 1:11:51
I just read something. Sorry being interrupted there. There was nothing onthere about pensions and how much were I looking for that. I couldn't
Officer - 1:12:07
quite see. Yes normally pensionsaren't included in this statement but it's certainly something that we could
forward for the future and include those.
And just to say that I think Publica has just enhanced its
pension payments as well to its staff so that we've increased
those in line so they're a bit more comparable with what the
councils are paying.
So just to let, you know, we can take that on board for next time
and provide a pension statement if you wish.
Happy to do that.
Councillor Nikki Ind - 1:12:35
Thank you.Anybody else?
No. Councillor Evermeade, would you like to speak?
Not at all, no. Councillor Harris, would you like to sum up?
Thank you.
Councillor Joe Harris - 1:12:51
Right, well, I will read out the recommendations.Councillor Nikki Ind - 1:12:56
So, the recommendation is that full council resolve 2, approve the pay policy statement for 25 -26.I'll ask for Keira to open the voting. Thank you, Keira.
Councillor Nikki Ind - 1:13:32
Thank you very much, colleagues.That's 28 -4 and one abstention.
And thank you very much, John, for being here.
Councillor Nikki Ind - 1:13:45
We move on colleagues to agenda item 10, amendments to the constitution, report of the constitutionworking group March 2025. So this is for us to consider the proposals from the constitution
working group for amendments to the constitution. Given the complexity of each of the five topics,
10 Amendments to the Constitution - Report of the Constitution Working Group (March 2025)
I suggest that they are introduced and discussed separately and I will then decide if the topic should be voted on separately or voted on block
so
Over to councillor ever me for the recommendations
Councillor Mike Evemy - 1:14:21
Thank you chair if I can just start by introducing them generallyso all of these have been
changes have been considered and discussed at the
opportunity as it's the last meeting of the municipal year to thank the fellow members
of that group for all their work and consideration of these matters.
Moving on, I'll then address the first one, I think which is a fairly straightforward
removal of some words from the Constitution which no longer apply with regards to an overview
and scrutiny committee budget.
So, I don't have any more to say on that one.
Would you like me to sit down and, or you want to carry on and do each of them?
Okay.
That's fine.
So, moving on, the second one is around our webcasting protocol.
And you can see that, and it's A, it's good practice to have a webcasting protocol.
I would emphasize, and I'm sure any members that have watched any of our meetings back
online will understand the importance that we do use the microphones because if you don't
use the microphone the person watching on screen can't follow what's going on. So I
just wanted to re -emphasise the importance of that to members and also the importance
of switching them off and we all I'm sure occasionally forget to switch off the microphone
but if you do then there's the next speaker you don't actually see the next speaker because
six days, the camera stays on you. So I think that it's just good practice to have a protocol
and hope that all members will support it. Moving on then to questions at Cabinet and
committees. What this is about is just tidying up and clarifying the process. When Cabinet
members are there at ONS committees, they're there to answer questions and discuss the
gender item and therefore it's not a general Q and A
of the cabinet member.
We have full council for that and members of ZIC
can ask us questions at full council.
So that hopefully just tidied up that process.
And then the two most substantive pieces here
are seem to be in reverse order in the report
and in the recommendations.
I'm gonna take them in the order there in the report,
which is the contract rules.
This is to do with how the council procures goods and services.
There's been new legislation on this.
See Kieran our procurement manager is there at the back of the room for any tricky questions
or that members may have about this.
I think the important part I wanted to bring members attention to is that there is a new
category, which is commissioning of goods and services between 30 ,000 and 60 ,000.
And you can see that in terms of how we deal with those
Also, I think it's part of the new contract rules. It's clear that the values include value -added tax
So essentially there's no real change to the smallest and the largest contracts
But it's that those in the middle there where there's a new process and then finally
We've got the probability and licensing protocol
We've got Councillor Layton who's the cabinet member for licensing and who was also at the
committee, on the working group meeting when this was discussed.
This is obviously an important document.
Licensing is an important function of this council and probity obviously is absolutely
critical.
The changes are largely to improve the readability of it and the way that it's laid out.
There's some changes around reflecting the Planning and Licensing Committee and
the subcommittee's responsibilities and it avoids duplication that's there in
the current protocol. With that chair I'll sit down and happy to answer any
questions that members have. Thank you members, thank you Councillor Evermy.
Councillor Nikki Ind - 1:18:32
Are there any questions for Councillor Evermy at this point? Would you like me totake them individually. There's no okay anything at the moment.
Councillor Fowls I understand you're seconding this would you like to speak now or is it the right?
Councillor David Fowles - 1:18:48
I'll speak now if I may, Chair. Could I echo the Councillor Erami's thanks to thecommittee and to him personally. The meetings were always good -natured, good
humoured and short and beautifully chaired. When he starts a meeting he
He always finishes it when he intends to finish it.
I have nothing really to add other than we did have a very long discussion about the
whole business of webcast meetings and the current arrangement is a physical presence.
So despite some of the banter today, it's always good to see colleagues.
And we did reflect on that because we, although the government guidelines might actually indicate
that we eventually might not have to physically meet,
we felt at the moment that the balance was right
and that on balance it's better.
Totally endorse what Councillor Evermy said about the need
to respect the fact that quite often we can forget the screen
and that there are people, however many there are,
watching our meetings and we need to think about them
and it's all about transparency.
And I'd also just like to thank Councillor Layton
because whenever I don't switch off my machine, she's always there to guide me.
So thank you very much.
I would just like to second everything that Councillor Everby said.
And look forward to the next meeting in the new municipal year.
Thank you.
Thank you, Councillor Fowls.
I'm just about to switch off now.
Councillor Nikki Ind - 1:20:15
Thank you, Councillor Fowls.We can see me now.
It's back on.
So.
Perfect. So, are there any, does anyone wish to speak in debate about any of these six
recommendations? No? Yes, thanks Lajud.
Councillor Julia Judd - 1:20:39
Am I missing something? I can't find number four. What?You're missing standing up. Oh, thank God.
I can't find under point 4 the Annex B in the papers. Is it in the papers or not?
Councillor Mike Evemy - 1:21:04
It's page 69. It's not labelled as Annex B but it's 11 .3 questions on notice at cabinet and committee meetings.69 if you've got physical papers.
Thank you.
Councillor Julia Judd - 1:21:15
Councillor Nikki Ind - 1:21:16
Thank you, Councillor Everly. Thank you, Councillor Judd. Any other questions? Are colleagueshappy for me to take the recommendations on block rather than individually? Yes, perfect.
So I'll just read them out then that Council resolves to number one, agree to remove the
words the chief executive will act as the cost centre manager for that budget from paragraph
of 4 .18 of Part D6, overview and scrutiny committee procedure
rules.
Number two, approve the protocol for webcasting meetings,
Annex A for inclusion in the Constitution.
Number three, delegate authority to the Director of Governance
and Development to update the protocol for webcasting
meetings in the event that the government changes the law
to enable remote attendance and or proxy voting
at local authority meetings.
Number four, approve the changes to part D1 11 .3 to clarify how questions on notice will
be dealt with at cabinet and committee meetings, Annex B, page 69.
And approve the updated probity in licensing protocol, Annex C. And six, approve the updated
contract rules in Annex D. Thank you, Keira.
Can I open the voting?
Councillor David Fowles - 1:22:36
Gina just vote for him. He does it on purpose. He's just like a petulant child. He doesn't have an option.I don't know. None of the above.
None of the above.
Petulant child. You are a petulant child.
I'm sat next to her.
Don't say that about Gina, she's just saying what?
She's got into the flu.
Oh no Gina, you haven't brought any flu back.
Bring it in on the...
Somebody's left.
Land's gone.
All right, thanks mate, I have coffee, it's disgusting coffee.
No, no, no, I can take half of the bit.
Are we out of conflict right now?
No, we're nearly there.
Councillor Nikki Ind - 1:23:54
Thank you colleagues, that's twenty -Next we'll go to agenda item eleven.
11 Devolution and Local Government Reorganisation
This is the devolution and local government reorganisation.
The purpose of this agenda item is to note the work underway across Gloucestershire
in response to the formal invitation received from the government
to develop proposals for local government reorganisation.
this is going to be proposed again by Councillor Harris
Councillor David Fowles - 1:24:22
Councillor Joe Harris - 1:24:28
I'm a police officer and I'm a police officer and I'm a police officer and I'm a police officer and I'm a police officer.I'm a police officer and I'm a police officer and I'm a police officer and I'm a police officer and I'm a police officer.
Now, quickly, there are four companies that are doing this,
and they are doing this, and they are doing this,
and they are doing this, and they are doing this.
The point I make is that we are spending a lot of time
and office resource in trying to get a solution for Gloucestershire.
What that solution is, we don't yet know.
And it's fair to say that there is a wide range of views across
the county as to what local government reorganization
should look like.
So we have a letter that has been agreed now by all of the
leaders of the district councils and of course the county
council in Gloucestershire.
This is in response to a request from the government to outline
some work streams in our locality around local
government reorganization with a view to a more formal proposal
later in the year, which will then form, you know,
the basis of the work as we move to a unitary council,
whatever that may be, whether it's one or two
or something else.
So we have this letter, which is in effect telling the government
we are getting on with it.
It outlines three proposals.
It outlines a one unitary Gloucester,
which probably is the default option,
So just literally taking the county boundaries and creating
one huge mega council across that area.
We have another proposal which personally I favor,
which is for a two unit tree Gloucestershire,
an east and a west council.
And then we've got a slightly strange scheme from Gloucester
which aims to form a People's Republic of Gloucester with,
I think, the rest of the county as a bit of an afterthought.
So as you can see from the letter,
it is a, we're encompassing all views.
We are an equal opportunities employer here in Gloucestershire.
We try and accommodate all views.
But we know there is going to be a county election in May.
There might well be a change in administration.
We certainly hope so.
But I think it is fair that before we get to a point where we have firm plans, we reset
that democratic button that we all love so much.
We have a new...
So, we're in good hands.
So, my headline to all of you is that the one thing we can agree
on in Gloucestershire is that we don't agree.
We have a letter that largely reflects that.
It does the job in that it sends an indication to government
that we are working on proposals.
It doesn't suggest a preference, and it allows us to get
to a point later in the year where we can hopefully firm
up a proposal this way or another. Either way I'm sure that when we get to the
autumn there will be more than one proposal. I'm pretty much certain that
whatever is happening in the County Council elections in May there might
well be district councils who hold a contrary view and put in their own
submission. So we don't know what the future of Gloucestershire looks like. It
is an uncertain time that we face but what I am pretty sure of is that we
will get to a point in the summer where we can start to firm something up and
have a bit more certainty. I know from discussions with ministers that they're
aware of Gloucestershire, they're keeping an eye on it, but they didn't feel like
we were quite in a position where our plans were advanced enough. So I will
leave it there, but yeah we can agree that we don't agree here in Gloucestershire
and we have a letter and a representation to government that reflects them.
Thank You Councillor Harris. Are there any questions for Councillor Harris?
Councillor Nikki Ind - 1:29:43
Councillor Stowe are you ready for the debate or was it a question that you wanted to ask?I wanted to ask for the debate.
Okay, so I'll ask, is there any questions for clarity first?
Nope.
Councillor Eberly would you like to second that note?
No, it was over your right.
Councillor Tom Stowe - 1:29:59
Right, Councillor Stowe, over to you.Yes, thank you Chair.
So we certainly do have some uncertain but exciting time to head for local government in Gloucestershire.
not for everybody but certainly the people here, it's important that all
efforts are made to deliver the best possible outcome for everybody in the
district and wider county and every opportunity is fully explored. So here we
are noting both the work taking place across Gloucestershire in developing
these proposals and to also note the county -wide letter to government with
the interim proposals. It is important I think that us noting these proposals is
not this council endorsing the leaders preference that you just mentioned either
East -West split that he mentioned. There are three potential options outlined in
the letter and I consider it a positive that these options have been put forward
so it can be demonstrated that all options have been considered, debated and
deliberated before any final decision is made. I've always been a tentative
supporter of the two -tier system, recognising there are positives and
negatives. However, following a few false starts over the last few years,
devolution and the end of the two -tier council system in Gloucestershire is now
going to happen. The overall objectives of switching to a unitary system should be to
deliver a simpler, more effective, sustainable and ultimately better value local government
for Gloucestershire with clearer accountability and responsibility. Only one of the proposals
put forward truly delivers on these objectives. The One Gloucestershire Route, though not
perfect, is the simplest and best option on the table to deliver for the best interests
of all residents across the county. This will mean less politicians, something which I wholeheartedly
welcome. The other two options, in reality, are politically motivated and dreamt up by
the Lib Dems to try to undermine and split up our great county. They are redebated and
I hope discounted in due course. Practically they simply make no sense, duplicating expensive
statutory officer roles across multiple councils, separate highways contracts for each county,
and splitting up adult social care and children's services would be hugely
complicated and costly. The proposals don't even meet the minimum population
threshold of 500 ,000 for a unitary as outlined by government.
Let's face it, only a career politician with their fingers in every local
government pide could think that the answer to streamlining local
government in this county, you guessed it, is more politicians. As someone who is
proud to represent the far northern Gloucestershire village of Mickleton, I can say that
Despite our location, we are proud Gloucestershire citizens and hope to remain so and share the challenges and benefits
That will come with devolution with our fellow neighbours across this great county
From the forests of Dean to Tethbury to King's home in Gloucester to Wadden Road in Cheltenham
Let's work to keep this county together and here's to another thousand years. Thank you
Councillor Nikki Ind - 1:32:56
Thank You councillor StoweCouncillor Harris, did you want to come back?
Councillor Joe Harris - 1:33:02
Thank you Tom. It's ironic isn't it that another Stowe who some of you mightremember was the chief architect of trying to take Cotswolds out of
Gloucestershire so it's great that you haven't taken a lead out of a
Councillor Stowe senior's book but no I take the point. I think you know I
don't recognise a lot of what you're saying actually the two unitary option
has worked well in other areas and has been advocated by conservative
politicians, if you take Cumbria, for example,
you know, it was the conservative MPs up in
Cumbria that were pushing for the two unitary solutions.
So to claim that this is some harebrained lib dem scheme I
think is a little disingenuous on your part.
Actually, I don't think this is a political issue in terms of
party politics more generally.
I think it's actually, and certainly the debate I've seen
so far is people that genuinely care about our area,
We genuinely care about how we deliver services and genuinely care about the identity of our
area and for some people I absolutely know that they hold Gloucestershire as a very precious
entity.
I think in other parts of the county that is certainly not the case.
Actually I think in the Cotswolds I think if you were to ask somebody in the Cotswolds
where they come from they're much less likely to say Gloucestershire and more likely to
say the Cotswolds.
I just think that's the reality of the situation.
So, you know, we can argue all day about local government
structures, but I go back to the point I made at the beginning,
most of the public couldn't care less.
They want their bins collected, they want their,
they want good value for money from their council tax,
and they want to make sure that if they fall on hard times,
they've got a council that's there to pick up and help them
and support them and get them back on their feet.
So, yeah, we can talk to the cows come home about structures,
about Gloucestershire, about tea unitary, but for me,
this isn't a political issue, it's lots of people that care
deeply about the area in which we live right across the county
taking a view about what structure would work best for
them, to try and turn this into a political issue is a shame.
And I know, and we know, that in your party there's just as much
divergence of view as there is in the liberal democrats or
indeed the conservatives or in fact the green party.
So, you know, let's not try and spin this as some big hair,
brain, lib dem scheme. It's not. There's all sorts of differing views across the
parties and over the course of the next year we've got to try and get to a
position where we've got a good fit for Gloucestershire. Is it going to satisfy
everybody? Is it going to be everything that everybody wants? Of course it's not.
We can get to a position where we're delivering better services then I think
we'll be doing our taxpayers justice. We'll be getting good value for taxpayers.
Councillor Nikki Ind - 1:35:48
Thank you, Councillor Harris. Councillor Coleman, you're next.Councillor Patrick Coleman - 1:35:53
Thank you, Chair. I don't want to make too much of this, but I do actually remember whenthe present system was set up. The shadow authorities were elected in 1973. I was in
Manchester at the time and being only 20 was too young to stand. They lowered the age of
My girlfriend at the time became my wife.
She stood in Manchester and didn't get in.
Nobody can say that the local government organisation has been rushed.
We have had plenty of trials in parts of the country over some decades.
Our governments at the time have experimented with small unitaries in the case of the former
County, well it's still a county in one sense, of Berkshire and they struggled.
And another small unit closer to home in Swindon which certainly struggled
and arguably is still in the middle of a struggle. The business of whether one
should have one county or two we can see an example of that of two in Cheshire
which was divided into Cheshire East and I think Cheshire Western Chester which
is a mouthful. I'm not clear that that's given us any great pointing but the two
The three points I wanted to take the opportunity to make is first of all, if you look at this from the point of view of parish and town councils,
the experience I had here was I was not a member of Chippenham town council when Wiltshire went unitary,
I was certainly a district and county councillor and there the perspective was positive at the time and I think it's still positive.
It's simpler for them.
There's two tiers.
There's a parish or town council which still has quite a lot of freedom to decide what
it wants to do.
They're still not capped.
Every government keeps a sharp eye.
Turn their eyes away from scientists or whatever you do.
And there's a council type task on up a bit.
But unfortunately it's not strict party control.
The point is it became simpler and more straightforward in terms of communications and responsibility
and a certain amount of devolution.
So we shouldn't ignore that positive feature to unitary government.
And I think the other point I wanted to make, and I may have made it here before, is what
a credit the unitary Wiltshire created, not at the same time as many others, in I think
2009, what a credit that is to Baroness Jane Scott, who until the general election was
a local government spokesman for the Conservatives in the House of Lords.
She had the vision as a Conservative leader of Wiltshire County Council to see that this
This was a better long -term objective, particularly without Swindon.
She had to carry it through against the solid opposition of all four district councils in
Wiltshire which were solidly conservative controlled and a significant number, not surprisingly,
of her own group.
It was slightly difficult for me because I thought it was a good idea but we were in
the opposition so I wasn't to shout too loud.
I spoke to somebody, this is my final point, a person who joined the unitary council I
when it was made. He may have left now. Conservative chap from the bottom of the
county. And he said, well what did you think about a unitary wheelchair? And this I
think was probably the sound and common view. Well until it happened I thought it
was a dreadful idea. And then when it happened and was almost immediately
followed by, if it weren't already in, the effects of the financial crash, we
thought thank goodness we did it. And I think whichever unitary model we end up
with will be happy that it was an appropriate step to take and that it
will overall be beneficial to town councils and parish councils in
particular to simplicity and accountability and quite possibly to a
Councillor Nikki Ind - 1:39:37
more efficient use of funds. Thanks. Thank You councillor Coleman.Councillor David Fowles - 1:39:42
Councillor Fowlers you're next on the list. Thank you Chairman. Before I comment on thisitem on the playwright, we have thanked you for your service and we have thanked our leader.
I personally would like to thank you, Councillor Coleman, because you always have reflections
and anecdotes that give us a real perspective on the whole process of democracy. I mean
that really sincerely. You are a fund of information. I enjoy what you say enormously. I know a
number of my colleagues have said that quietly today.
I don't believe that our party is in any doubt as to what we think the best solution is for
the unitaries, contrary to what Councillor Harris has just said. One thing I do know
is that whatever we're looking at, there's a huge cost associated with it and I know
that on the doorstep, maybe I'm knocking on different doorsteps, but the people are concerned
about the structure and are concerned about the amount of money that is spent.
The main thing I've noticed in talking to parish councils and residents is a real concern
that with this process that they'll use that local representation. And I think that in
this debate about unitaries, it's really sad to be the architects of our own disappearance,
as it were. And I think we should all compliment ourselves on the excellent job that we do
at wards, the balance is right and our officers, criticism of the officers has never been made
by us.
I think our officers are excellent at all levels.
And the real concern that parish councils have is with all these savings, are they A,
going to have to do more work and B, lose that vital cog in the wheel which is the Cotswold
District.
So I'd like to thank all of us, officers and members, for the excellent job we have.
and I'm personally very sad that this whole process is being debated and is going to be
implemented. I think it's a great, great shame, but it is what it is.
Thank you, Councillor. Thank you, Councillor Fowls.
Councillor Nikki Ind - 1:41:47
Councillor Evan Mead, did you want to speak to that?Councillor Mike Evemy - 1:41:51
Thank you, Chair. I rise as someone who has lived through local government reorganisation.as Councillor Coleman referred to Wiltshire Council.
There was in 1997, as was Thamesdown,
which became Swindon Borough Council,
came out of Wiltshire County Council
and became a unitary authority
and I was a member of that authority
both before and for another nine years
after it became a unitary authority.
And I can definitely see potential benefits
in having a unitary authority
over the two -tier system. Having said that, this has been something which wasn't in the
government governing party's manifesto, that they brought forward, cancelled elections
I think in 12 different areas, fortunately not here I'm glad to say, but we are in a
situation where the government clearly wants to move forward and essentially unitarize
the whole of England to add to the unitary councils that already exist in Scotland, Wales
and Northern Ireland.
So, and that's I think very much a feature of Labour governments that we're going to
have to get used to.
They like uniformity and consistency and they tend to legislate for that.
So we are where we are, the government has a large majority and they have determined
that they would like unitary councils across the whole country.
I think they may well find that actually changing councils going through the process is, I mean
it's talked about some of the costs, but just in terms of the logistics of doing that, they've
got to legislate the changes.
It's not going to, I'm sure I would predict certainly the first phase of councils that
are going through this, whose elections have been cancelled for the county councils this
year.
It won't be an easy process to go through.
There's an awful lot that's got to be considered and you can see that in terms of the letter
that our leader and the other council leaders in Gloucestershire are sending off to the
all the work that's got to be done by our senior officers working together in order to prepare for a unitary authority.
And I'll have to say, we thought we did a lot of work, but then it was alluded to by Council Coleman.
Once you actually get those responsibilities for education as it was then,
completely broader than it is now, and social services.
the demands of those services and members who sit on the county council will, I'm sure agree with me on this.
Do the scale and the import of those things
does mean there's less time to talk about the things that we currently talk about in this chamber.
And that will be an inevitable consequence, whatever happens in terms of moving towards a unitary status.
I think, though, that we have to recognise that the status quo doesn't appear to be an
option. It may be a fallback position if the government runs out of steam with their legislative
proposal or there is a general election and a new government decides not to proceed, but
obviously we have to work on the basis that a government with a large majority will get
its way and will legislate for what's in the white paper.
I would commend the leader for not seeking to divide the council at this point.
I think it's right that we are supporting the continuation of investigation into the
three options.
He's expressed a personal preference, but I think it's important that we as a council
can consider all of those options when they come back to us later in the year and make
a considered view about which we think is the best for the residents and businesses
and organisations in this district.
And then, clearly we can then communicate that
at that point to the minister.
But I think we'll be doing that sort of in the autumn
when we've got that information.
I'm also hopeful and looking at the papers
that we will go out and ask the public
and whilst the leader says,
the public aren't very interested at the moment,
this has been very much,
as I said, it wasn't in the governing manifesto.
And most people don't think very much
about council structures.
But there are quite fundamental things that potentially could be different depending on
which option we go down.
So I would welcome that we are having this discussion, that we're not seeking a division
on it at this point and that we look at it later on in the year when we have more detailed
proposals and come to a considered view as a council at that point.
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you, Councillor Ebony.
Councillor Hodgkinson.
Councillor Paul Hodgkinson - 1:46:47
Yeah, I wanted to mention a couple of points.I was just picking up on what the leader of the opposition said about
Councillor Harris and some of us here wanting more politicians
Well, actually if you have a look at the paperwork
It talks about the fact that the Gloucestershire wide unitary which you support would have a unitary council of 110 members
Yeah, it also talks about option B, which would be West Gloucestershire 58 members East Gloucestershire 52
Add the two together 110. They're exactly the same so far for wanting more politicians
we actually want the same number as you do. Okay so that's the first thing.
Secondly, because there's a 63 % decrease in the number of politicians, secondly
yeah I think whatever the outcome is that you know we get to in the end
whether it's a Gloucestershire wide, a split county, whatever it is,
some town and parish councils really do want more devolved powers and
actually I think it's a great opportunity for those who do. I mean some
of the town the many town and parish councils that I talked to you know
they're really up for doing more things they want to do stuff for roads and
highways because they see how rubbish Gloucestershire County Council is
delivering that at the moment so they're really up for that so I think it's an
opportunity for those town and parish councils that want to to give them that
and I hope that whatever we end up with those town and parish councils which are
up for that extra devolution. Do get those powers. Thank you.
Thank you, Councillor Hodgkinson. Councillor Mark Harris.
Councillor Nikki Ind - 1:48:17
Councillor Mark Harris - 1:48:18
Thank you very much. I'm continuing on in that vein from Councillor Hodgkinson. It wasinteresting and I think the leader hit the nail on the head when he said that even within
our own parties we're sort of, that there are different views. And over here we heard
one view that was saying, look, we need less politicians and then the view next to him
saying you know the danger of this is there'll be less representation.
I agree with that and I think we're probably, Councillor Foulkes, probably on the same page here,
but I think we need to act as champions for the residents of Cotswold going forward over the next couple of years
to ensure that our towns and parishes really get the very most out of the opportunities of devolution,
which is speaking to Councillor Hodgkinson's point.
So I think whatever shape it looks like, it's incumbent on all of us, every single one of us,
to make sure that when we say farewell, that we leave our towns and parishes in the best possible state
to represent their residents and our residents.
Thank you, Councillor Harris. Now it's me.
Councillor Nikki Ind - 1:49:20
So I've got a pretty open mind about this, but what you've just said resonated with mebecause one of the things I think we need to do is really support our towns and parishes
because this is going to be a real shift for them not having us if you like as a
layer to come to not having those ward members and particularly at my end of
the world and in the north and throughout the district we need to
ensure that the voices in rural areas don't get lost to the cities where I
know that decisions are made because they can impact more people quickly but
our residents are as entitled to being supported as well. So I think this is
really important that we find a way to ensure that our residents voices
are heard. And of course whilst all this goes on we have business as usual here
at the District Council so we've still got to continue to provide those
services for our residents so that if and when it all comes to pass we are in
a good position those services are there, they're working, they're efficient and we
can hand over decent services to whatever comes next. Thank you. Next,
Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 1:50:35
Councillor Jenkinson. Thank you, Chair. On this particular point I'm rising tosupport, although I had my hand up before, the comments made by Mark Harris,
Councillor Mark Harris and others. Given that we are in a situation where
something is going to happen.
I want to remind us that there is a well -known phenomenon that when you go through certain processes of change,
knowledge is lost, information is destroyed.
There's a great deal of data proposed about how new knowledge is being created all the time,
but knowledge is also being destroyed at the same time.
And we've just heard examples of how much there is in terms of knowledge locally.
I suggest to you all that every one of the people in this room has acquired a great deal
of local knowledge just because we are at that intermediate level where we are big enough
to be able to take account of a whole district, but local enough to be aware of local things.
And that's a really key thing and I think everybody in this room has that.
Now when I became a Councillor, one of the things that was really difficult is I'd take
specific problem, I'd look at it and say, is this a town council issue?
Is it a district council issue?
Is it a county council issue or something else?
And I suspect everybody in this room, especially when you are less experienced, has come across
that problem.
It's a real issue.
I took over from another counselor who knew a great deal about what was going on.
She wrote me long emails about stuff, but she went away, and the amount that she took away of local knowledge was very considerable.
Now, the point that I'm trying to make is that we are going to be going through a kind of transformation moment
in which it will be inevitable that we are likely to lose knowledge.
Therefore, I am going to give consideration to what we can do as a council to make sure
that we capture and preserve that which is really important for our local communities.
I am aware of issues in my ward, issues that have not been resolved and need to be fixed,
issues of opportunity of what could be done.
and I suspect that every single member of this council would repeat this would
agree with what I've just said I would like to see if we cannot do something to
make sure that as we go forward we really gather together and prepare
ourselves in the best possible way for whatever emerges whichever of these
Councillor Nikki Ind - 1:53:24
options or some other is the final one thank youCouncillor Dilys Neill - 1:53:29
Thank You councillor Jenkins and councillor Neal yes actually I wasI was planning to say has largely been said by others before me and my concern is about the role of the town and parish
councils the town councils in particular
They may have a big shock coming towards them with less
Elected members being able to come forward and support them in their deliberations
but there's as
Council Harrison council Hodgkinson have both said and others
They have a huge opportunity as well. I mean and I think
When our next response from our county council and our local councils is put forward to the
government, we need to make it clear what our expectation of the role of town councils
in particular is.
I mean, are they going to be responsible for some of the discretionary services which we
now pick up?
Are they going to have opportunities to fund raise themselves?
Are they going to be given grants that will give them a bigger budget?
and I think it would be really useful if that sort of discussion was held at an
earlier stage rather than a later stage because we'll be coming up for our
town of parish council elections in a couple of years and the people who
are standing will need to know what their responsibilities are going to be.
So yeah I'd like to second what others have said. Thank You councillor Neal.
Councillor Judd.
Councillor Nikki Ind - 1:54:52
Councillor Julia Judd - 1:54:53
Thank you, Chair.One of the things about the unitary that particularly strikes me is, hooray, hopefully we'll get
some logic that the planning will all be done by one authority so we don't get this dystopian
nightmare of building houses without the infrastructure because one authority is going to be responsible
for the whole deal, which to me makes sense.
The other thing is going back to the town parish councillors, I think it's a dream to think that they, what we wish for is that we need a mechanism for them.
They need help. They either need training or they need to be paid.
So Councillor Stowe, I'm so sorry but I think you're right. We might end up having to pay our parish councillors.
They need to step up because they will be on their own and I'm very very concerned for my little tiny
Rural patches because they will not have a voice unless we help them
So, please can we all put our heads together the thing for mechanism for them?
Thank You councillor Jad, councillor Spivey
Councillor Lisa Spivey - 1:56:02
Yeah, thank you. I'd just like to thank members for this really interesting debate today. I think it's been really reallysort of
Reassuring to hear that we are all so concerned not just about you know
Our towns and parishes but our residents and how we deliver our services and I think one thing that really hasn't been mentioned
And the only thing I'd like to mention in this context of this is our staff
And I think that's really important and in times of transition and change
It's clearly a difficult time for everyone to adjust to what's going on and I think you know that there will be
members of our staff and certainly in all of the councils who will be very worried about their own positions and what is going to happen.
And I think that it's really incumbent on us to reassure them and to keep that kind of level head throughout our discussion.
So I'm very pleased today that we've been very mindful of the tone of the debate, which I think is going to be really important.
I think what we mustn't forget is that all of the services that we currently deliver and that are delivered in the six districts and the county council
itself all across the board are services.
Some of them, the vast majority of those are statutory services,
which will continue to need to be delivered.
So I really hope that within, you know,
as the political leaders of our organizations and with our
officer senior leadership team here,
that we can go out and reassure those staff that certainly,
you know, the delivery of services to residents is going
to be really, really important.
And that continues, you know, bins will still need to get
picked up, benefit claims will still need to be processed,
we will still look after the most vulnerable who need homes,
et cetera.
So I think that's really, really important and incumbent on us to
continue to keep that level head and to know that.
And to say thank you to our staff really for all the work
that they do and will continue to do throughout
that transition process.
So, yeah, so just kind of summing up to say let's not
forget about all those that are really on the front line
delivering services and how important they are going to be throughout this
Councillor Nikki Ind - 1:58:07
process. Thank you. Thank You councillor Spivey. Councillor Pellegram.Councillor Andrea Pellegram - 1:58:12
Thank youchair. Hello everybody this is the first time I've spoken to you. You don't
know me. My background for the last ten years has been working with parish and
town councils to prepare neighborhood plans and I've done a lot of work in
Wiltshire and Shropshire, which are unitary authorities.
Just a word of warning for us all so that we all bear this
in mind, the parishes, and I'm speaking of larger parishes like
Salisbury City Council and Chippenham Town Council,
as well as very small places, they do feel very distant from
the unitary authority.
They do feel that they're ignored and felt to be
less important.
And I think this is something that we really must bear in
mind if we really care about this.
We have to think about ways of creating structures that allow
some sort of intermediary power sharing or whatever between the
unitary and the parish council.
So, for instance, they have area boards in Wiltshire,
and I think that generally works quite well.
So that might be something that we would want to promote through
whatever unitary structure that we might end up being in.
And, of course, it's very important that they have
of the default budgets as well, particularly for the larger areas.
So again, something for us all to think about.
Thank you.
Thank you, Councillor Pellegran.
Councillor Nikki Ind - 1:59:40
Any more for the debate?Councillor Evermonde, did you want to sum up?
Well, yeah, I've got to say Councillor Evermonde is the seconder, but we're not.
We're just no ideas.
So would you like to sum up and then I'll do the next?
Councillor Joe Harris - 1:59:56
I would be delighted to, Chair.I think, you know, it's been a really good debate, actually.
It's been very useful.
I think just a couple of points.
We mentioned town and parish councils.
I think they are fundamentally important to this.
Wherever you, wherever we've seen unitary councils,
whether they like it or not, they have always ended up taking
on more roles, more responsibilities.
Two examples I give are in Chippenham that's just been
reference where actually they really welcome unitary status
and they use it as a real opportunity to get some powers,
to get some income generation into the town so they have more
say over their destiny and their locality which I think is great.
And I'd be encouraging all of our town and parish councils to
do the same, have that ambition for your area.
I think the other example is more recently in Somerset where
a huge unitary authority council was created.
Of course, we know that county councils have huge pressures due to social care.
What happens?
Well, the district councils get merged into one super council.
All the money and all the focus of attention goes on adult social care.
So all that money, all those reserves that those councils had get sucked into social
care and never seen again.
And as a result, they're having to make swinging cuts to their revenue budget.
So things like community centers, public loos,
you know, all sorts of community facilities.
They're having to go to the parish councils and say,
well, you either run these or we close them down.
Sounds familiar, doesn't it?
So I think those are discussions I want to be having with
communities over the next few months and years.
Don't get to a point where we have a super mega council that's
struggling to make ends meet and cutting services.
Let's get ahead of the curve.
Let's have a bit of a plan.
and let's be engaging with our town and parish councils.
And, you know, I've made it clear that as a council,
that has to be a corporate priority for us.
I'm sure when we adopt a new corporate plan in the summer,
we will do just that.
But I would say that we're having a summit for town and
parish councils in June, and I'd encourage all of you to send
your town and parish councilors along to that to engage.
So more information on that will follow.
So town and parishes are going to be absolutely key in
to unlocking potentials of our communities.
Let's not wait until there's a unitary.
Let's start the conversation now, quite honestly.
And then yeah, any new unitary structure
has to have structures within it
to make sure you don't lose that local link.
And I know it depends which council you go to,
but there are different models.
I know talking to the minister last week,
he's keen on a district model.
So we might, if we had a, I think an example of this
could be if we had a Gloucestershire wide unitary,
you still have a Cotswold district shaped entity within that council and
maybe that would have devolved budgets or powers that would be quite big but who
knows we will see. So anyway coming back to the point it's been a really really
good debate I am absolutely certain this is not the last time that we will debate
this in this council chamber but where out of the minute is we're all
agree to disagree and hopefully as the year wears on as we secure a stunning
election victory in the County Council elections we will have a bit more
certainty as to direction of travel and a way forward will present itself and
get shaken up. Thank you. Thank you Councillor Harris and there's no
Councillor Nikki Ind - 2:03:31
vote forthis but Council is noting the work taking place across Gloucestershire in
response to the formal invitation from the government to develop proposals for
local government reorganisation and noting the Gloucestershire letter to
government on interim proposals. Colleagues we have now exceeded the two
hour mark I am going to propose that we stop for 10 minutes for a comfort break
11 Devolution and Local Government Reorganisation
and come back at quarter past four please thank you.
Welcome back everybody. Thank you very much for your patience. Right, we move on to agenda
12 Motion A: Farmers Motion
item 12, which is the farmers motion. And in accordance with Council procedure rule
12, the following motion has been received. And this has come from Councillor Julia Judd.
Councillor Judd, over to you.
Councillor Julia Judd - 2:04:40
Thank you, Chair.Well, I don't need to go to the wire on the time on this one.
I think we're all painfully aware of the catastrophic IHT on farmers.
And I think there's a massive misunderstanding of the ramifications of this.
It's an iniquitous tax.
Farmers, farming cannot be compared to any other business.
It is too complicated and there is too much knowledge,
love, passion involved in the business.
And you take it away at your peril.
The countryside will be changed forever if it lands
in the hands of industrial landowners.
They won't be necessarily farmers.
We only produce 60 percent of our food in this country,
and we already know from the energy industry how vulnerable
that makes us in if there is more tariffs coming from across
the pond, let alone more wars or any other catastrophic situation
which I don't particularly want to imagine here this afternoon.
But we need, farming needs strong political support right now.
They haven't got enough.
We haven't got enough MPs who understand farming.
And we certainly haven't got enough local voice for the farmers from the local politicians,
I feel.
So I would like Cotswold District Council to stand up and be counted on behalf of the
farmers and write the Secretary of State asking her to reconsider the IHT tax, which is coming
in on the first of April.
There was no consultation with her own government department.
DEFRA, even on the day that she made her announcement, DEFRA were unaware of it.
There was no consultation with the NFU.
There was no consultation with farmers.
It's a very, very knee -jerk reaction, rushed out policy,
and it is going to be very, very damaging.
The National Farmers Union calculates 75 percent of
commercial family farms will fall above the
one -million -pound threshold.
It will affect at least two -thirds of farms quite quickly.
That means basically most farmers feel that within two
generations, they will have to sell up.
They're already selling off pockets of land.
And those bits of land, as we all know,
do not go back into food production.
They go into applications for dog walking
parks or equestrian or something.
But it's not food production.
And it's confusing.
The statements that first came out about this policy
were misleading basically because the speech makers, because they didn't
actually liaise with their own government department, got hectares and
acres muddled up. For your information, we are a Cotswold District Council.
The Cotswolds is known for its countryside. Farming is a huge part of
economic, I think Andrew might be able to give me more stats on that, but it is a big part of
economic
industry in the in the in the constables, but for your information one hectare is
2 .47 acres. It's two and a half acres to one hectare. So can you imagine
rolling out a national speech being two and a half times wrong and
and never apologising for it and never actually get backtracking on your own figures.
The other thing that hasn't been taken into account is that everything to do with farming is expensive.
Can you imagine how much a tractor costs? I think Councillor Thayer might be able to throw some light on that in a moment.
But it's everything is expensive to do with farming so they have to borrow and cash flow is poor.
It's just the most terrible business to be in.
You would not choose it if you were a businessman.
But standing livestock, plant and machinery, they've all been left out of the calculations.
Dystopian legislation, the eye -watering costs of machinery, erratic martychic forces, red
tape, TB, other devastating diseases such as foot and mouth disease, flooding, drought.
I mean, no other business has to face this sort of thing day in, day out.
I have asked Councillor Thayer to second this motion.
There was a mistake, absolutely my mistake made on the papers,
but I defer to him and I'm honoured that a proper farmer is going to speak on my behalf
or on behalf of this motion.
Councillor Nikki Ind - 2:10:06
Thank you Councillor Judd.Councillor Jeremy Theyer - 2:10:11
Councillor Thayer, over to you to second.Thank you everyone for listening to Julia Judd.
The inheritance tax on farmers, it just doesn't work.
It's been brought in, any acting government over the years has never brought in this taxation
upon us because it just doesn't work.
It just financially, it just doesn't add up.
We cannot make this sort of, it's just the expense.
It's just unbelievable.
Unbelievable, like Julia was saying about the cost of machinery, tractors, it's just
scary.
Well, I've just bought a 95 horsepower tractor in 2016 and that cost £55 ,000.
Couldn't buy it outright because it was out of my remit so it's on the tick.
So a lot of farmers, you see all these flash machinery and a lot of it's on finance because you cannot actually
financially make it add up.
Feed bills at the moment, I'm paying nearly a thousand pounds for three tons of feed.
I've already gone through my bought up a lot of nine tons already and I've still got another 200 ewes to land
which we are currently doing at the moment, which my partner is texting me
every five minutes through this meeting to tell me what do I do with this one.
He's got a leg out. So and then I've been up since I think I still got the bed
about three o 'clock and then I was back up at six but that's my own stupidity.
But I do that for the last couple of months. But yes going back to the digest
But on this inheritance tax, it's just unbelievable.
I don't know how a lot of these big farms, small farms, I don't know how they make it
pay.
My mother's still farms, she's on her own, she's 72.
I've got a stepfather there, unfortunately he's got Parkinson's and he struggles.
But she's doing that, she's lambing 400 ewes and she has a guy coming three days a week.
So most of the time she's out there.
She loves it, she's passionate about it.
But when this bill came out, she was just distraught.
Because she thought she was just gonna lose it.
Oh, sorry.
But she's so passionate about it.
And all we wanna do as farmers
is just produce a good product.
And we do our utmost to do that.
and give it to the marketplace and get a fair price so that we can feed the nation.
It's not rocket science, it's just that we try our best to do that.
And we're constrated. We follow so much legislation.
At the time when we were at the EU, we followed all the ear tagging, processes, paperwork.
And we've carried that on when we left with Brexit.
We've even got even more stringent things.
And going back to disease and threats,
at the moment I've just spent out nearly £1500 on blue tongue vaccine,
which I don't know if you've heard about that,
where we got a devastating disease that swept across from the continent
and that's slowly but surely working its way into flocks and herds of cows
and it was just getting stillborns, dead animals.
But that's a loss to us.
There's no help there at all.
So we've got the vaccine now, which is on top of our usual drug use of other vaccines to keep the animals alive.
Because they do like to commit suicide, bless them.
But it's just cost on cost and it's just wrong.
It just doesn't add up.
We can't make these sums work.
If we got taxed now on this, farms are just going to disappear.
and the small farmers were there producing the best food that we possibly can.
I'm passionate about that.
My animals come first, like I'm out at all hours doing it, all my work, all the time,
as well as fitting in with my parish work and everything else, which I do struggle with
at times.
But, yeah, I think we should be sending this letter to Rachel Reeves as a wake -up call
and to have another look at it and just be fair to us, that's all. Thank you for your time.
Councillor Nikki Ind - 2:14:54
Thank you Councillor Thayer and actually for that insight into the effects that you and your familyare personally feeling at what is clearly a very difficult time for farmers in the Cotswolds.
Councillor Harris. Thank you very much and first of all thank you to
Councillor Joe Harris - 2:15:13
Jeremy for speaking with suchpassion, you telling me just outside that you'd sort of been
up all night, two hours sleep, lambing.
I've just got a puppy and I had to get up at four o 'clock in the
morning today for a wee.
So my, your struggling with the mind.
This is an incredibly important issue.
I do want to move a motion in a second,
but I do want to say a few words on the wider issue.
So obviously the Labour government are proposing these
changes to inheritance tax.
And I think it's fair to say that, you know,
the concern is that it will put family farming at risk.
Their plans threaten the very existence of many small
and medium -sized farms, making it harder for the
next generation to continue the work of their parents
and grandparents.
And that's almost what this comes down to.
Farming isn't just a business.
It's a lifelong commitment, as we've just heard.
It's about hard work.
It's about resilience.
And it's about an unbreakable bond with the land.
For centuries in this country,
British farmers have fed the nation, they've cared for the
countryside, and they sustained rural economies.
Yet instead of supporting farmers, it feels as if the
government wants to tax them out of existence, even if they're
doing it not intentionally.
The Labour Party's plan to change agricultural property
relief and increase inheritance tax burdens will hit farmers
more disproportionately.
Many don't have vast cash reserves.
their wealth is tied up in land, in machinery, and of course in livestock.
Things we can't simply sell without destroying the very business that
sustains their families and communities. If these changes go ahead farmers will be
forced to sell land just to pay the tax bill. This will not only break up farms
that have been in families for generations, it will also push more land
into the hands of large corporations and developers who care little about
traditions and a lot more about making a profit as we've seen all too often.
It's not just attacks on farmers either, I think that's the other concern. Many
feel it is attacks on a rural way of life because when family farms are lost
communities suffer, local jobs disappear, villages become less sustainable. In some
areas village schools have closed and that very fabric of community life
begins to unravel.
And actually, at a time when food security in particular
should be our priority, Labour's plan potentially
will do the opposite.
It will make Britain more dependent on imported food,
reducing our ability to produce homegrown,
high -quality, quality produce.
How on earth can we expect to strengthen the economy,
as we keep hearing, when we're weakening our own
food supply potentially?
Now, while Labour is preparing to hammer farmers
with unfair taxes, let's not forget that the Conservatives
have already let rural communities down.
They made promises to protect British farming,
only to sell out British farmers in trade deals that undercut our
produce and leave us at a disadvantage.
So the Lib Dems have consistently stood up for rural
communities and farmers, and we will continue to push policies
that support the rural way of life and, of course, farmers.
And I'm proud of the work that Ros Savage, our MP,
is doing on this issue.
and I know she has met with many local farmers
and indeed written to them on this issue.
Absolutely agree with the sentiment of this motion
and I want to strengthen our hands.
So I'm today proposing that we refer this to the overview
and scrutiny committee to review the impact of these changes
in the Cotswold district and report back to council
with a recommendation on how to make a representation
to the government.
I think he's absolutely right on an issue of this importance
that we get under the skin of how it is materially going
to impact farmers in our district.
So I want to hear stories like Jeremy has just told us.
I want to hear from our MPs on the work that they are doing.
I want to hear from the local NFU.
I want to hear from farmers.
And I think over your Inscrutiny Committee,
as we have seen in the past couple of years,
have a really good record of getting under the skin
and understanding this.
This isn't to delay or anything like that, but it is absolutely in order to make sure that we make a good and a robust representation to government.
Whoever the leader is in the summer, I want them to be able to make a representation that really reflects what is happening in the Cotswolds and gets under the skin of the issue.
So my motion that I'm proposing is therefore to refer this to overview and scrutiny to come back to Council by the latest in July with a recommendation on what that representation should say and look like.
Because I think getting under the skin of this is going to produce a letter far superior to anything that I can cobble up, you know, myself.
Thank you.
Councillor Nikki Ind - 2:20:08
Thank you, Councillor Harris. Do I have a seconder for that, CouncillorCouncillor Nikki Ind - 2:20:16
Evermy? Do you wish to speak on that, CouncillorEvermy? No?
So I've got Councillor Turner who would like to speak.
Councillor Clare Turner - 2:20:28
Thank you. Do I need to?Councillor Nikki Ind - 2:20:38
So we need to debate the motion that's just come through rather than the other motion.Councillor Clare Turner - 2:20:43
Did you wish to talk about the delay motion?Well, in that context, just a point of clarity, when we come to make a decision on this, are
we looking at an either or choice or can we support, if we support this motion, does that
exclude an initial letter being sent?
Councillor Nikki Ind - 2:21:03
Yes, I think it does it will it will basically stop everything until JulyCouncillor Julia Judd - 2:21:08
Councillor Jad.Chair, may I respond to the amendment?
I it's going to be too late.
The this tax is meant to come in on the first of April.
We need to get that letter in quickly.
It does not need to be over thought.
It's a very, very simple request from an agricultural,
rural farming community from the Cotswolds,
asking the Secretary, the Chancellor of Exchequer
to reconsider IHT reform and take consultation from Defra,
her own government department, from the NFU, from farmers.
That's what I'm asking.
It is very, very simple.
It does not need to go to the overview in scrutiny,
but we need to do it and get it to government before the first of
Councillor Nikki Ind - 2:22:01
April.Councillor Fowls?
Councillor David Fowles - 2:22:05
I was just going to ask the question about the first of April date whichCouncillor Judd has just clarified. We have so much information here in the
Cotswolds about farming, not wishing to make points about one MP versus another,
But, you know, the MP for the North Cotswolds has regular
meetings with the NFU.
I'm sure that in 24 hours we could get a lot of very useful
data to help populate a letter that comes from the Cotswolds
District Council to government.
To get the hectares and acres muddled up is just to me,
demonstrates yet again how little the government actually
understands our community and our economy.
And on top of what they've done with national insurance and
seeing the demise of businesses like Gardner Haskins and
Sire ancestor, they're just so out of touch with what's
going on here.
And before I sit down, I'd just like to thank you,
Jeremy, for what you said.
It's wonderful to have a farmer here in the chamber,
and it demonstrates that we are representing our community.
And well done, you.
And to see you cry and your mother,
It's very, very moving and I think you spoke incredibly well and well done to you.
But I would urge that we just go with the original recommendation.
We want to do more work and put together a big document and fine, but we have got an awful lot of data here.
Councillor Nikki Ind - 2:23:33
Thank you, Councillor Fells.Councillor Jenkinson.
Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 2:23:37
Thank you, Chair.I'd like to support the proposal that this should go through to scrutiny.
The reason why is this.
I think that the fact that Cotswold District Council has
got a councilor who even has a specified interest in farming
and a responsibility for it is actually unusual across this
country, as I've discovered when I've attended
farming conferences.
So that being the case, we do know the importance of farming,
And I confirm that it's a really important part.
It's been the bastion of civilization for thousands of years.
And there are wonderful dedicated people and Councillor Thayer has given an example of that.
It includes perhaps 30 to 40 % of the farms being run by tenant and farmers.
As again, Councillor Thayer will know all about.
Now, the reason I'm proposing that we put this to scrutiny is that, as you say, there's a decision happening imminently.
And if we send off this note, I don't believe it will make any difference.
And I don't believe we're interested in trying to achieve merely political rhetoric.
I think if we want to do something, we should do something that has some kind of force.
And the question is, would sending off this actually change anything that the government is going to do?
I doubt it, particularly because they'd look at it and mark a whole lot of the data that's put in here
as irrelevant to the fundamental question that is being proposed,
the concern to protect the future of farming.
They would say that is not relevant.
There are other data that they would say this is a manipulation or a presentation of facts.
For example, the use of the specific term that the NFU use
is a technical term that defines a certain type of farm
and a certain type of farming process
Which is only part of the totality of all of the genuine real farms that are being carried out and farming that's being carried out
Now I think it's really important that we do address the importance of farming
I think it's what the one of the most important issues of Gloucestershire of England and of the world it is an
absolute
Absolutely at the core of the future of our ecology and climate crises and the people who are trying to achieve
transformation in the farming of the future are legion and more and more are becoming
expert and more and more are being inspired.
We should definitely support the change in farming and the practices of farming that
we need into the future and to preserve that as an ongoing process.
So I welcome the opportunity to go into this in depth and really arrive at a proper understanding
of what is needed that we can support.
Councillor Nikki Ind - 2:26:33
Councillor Nigel Robbins - 2:26:36
Thank you Councillor Jenkins and Councillor Robbins.Thank you chair and I apologise to the council for the earlier interruption.
I think you can be quite sure that on this side of the house we're just as enthusiastic
about supporting a motion against this particular piece of legislation as those on this side
of the house and indeed farmers in the Cotswolds.
I think the problem is that this particular letter, as it's set out with this detail,
is not what we would have chosen if we had been in agreement and done the joint letter initially.
That's significant. If you take the point at the bottom of page six, it says,
large farms are being bought by businesses so that they can take advantage of the 20 % tax advantage.
That's precisely the argument that the Labour government is putting for introducing IHT for farms.
That there are large farmers, particularly in the east of England, the big grain and vegetable growing areas,
they are taking advantage of that and investment companies are ploughing in money
because they know they will not be taxed through this particular method.
So that's the kind of argument that is actually supporting what the Labour government is doing.
And so it's not the letter that we would like.
On the other hand, I do agree with my colleague here
that actually a protest letter is not
going to have any effect on the government's determination
to introduce this on April the 1st.
But I do sympathize with the delay that might be involved.
Nevertheless, I think a properly agreed, formulated letter
that goes through overview and scrutiny,
if we can speed up the generation of that,
will get to parliament before probably the second reading,
and certainly before it gets to the Lords,
which will almost certainly have a very strong resistance
against this particular piece of proposed legislation.
So I propose we do follow this suggestion
that we go to an overview at Scoot -o -Nee,
get a better letter, and it doesn't stop people
from sending off their individual letters of protest
as part of the collective response
of this particular unpleasant piece of legislation.
Councillor Nikki Ind - 2:28:51
Thank you.Thank you, Councillor Robbins.
Councillor Cunningham, you're next.
Excuse me, I have a point of order, Chair.
I'm aware this is your last meeting,
but a procedural motion was moved and seconded.
The process should be that the speaker vote speaks in favour
and the person who is voting the motion speaks against.
That, then you then go to the vote.
Councillor Mike Evemy - 2:29:14
I'm pretty sure that's how the constitution is written.We seem to be having a debate about the procedural motion,
Councillor Nikki Ind - 2:29:23
which I don't believe is in order. Can I get some clarity from Andrew?Andrew Brown, Officer - 2:29:28
So I think we're dealing with in the council procedure rules it's 13 Drefer something to appropriate committee. Motion may be moved without
notice it's been seconded. It doesn't state in the Constitution that it will
Councillor Mike Evemy - 2:29:48
voted on without debate so I believe it's correct to be debating the motionCouncillor Mark Harris - 2:29:51
to refer. I'm happy to stand corrected apologies chair. We did actually we didask that because it does mention it with members questions that they can go be
referred without debate but it debate wasn't mentioned in this so in the
Councillor Nikki Ind - 2:30:07
absence of it we decided to allow it. Thank you.Councillor Cunningham.
Councillor David Cunningham - 2:30:11
Thank you Madam Chair. I don't think necessarily these things are mutually exclusive.I see no reason why we cannot agree that there should be a letter sent to the Chancellor of East Chequette asking for there to be a pause, asking for there to be further consultation
and highlighting the fact that this council has agreed that this is such an important
matter for the district that it will be put to the overview and scrutiny committee, although
they don't have a great deal of space in their overall agenda for the rest of the year, but
exceptions can be made and that in doing so a fuller report can be put forward.
So a letter going forward now from the leader expressing our concerns, expressing the fact
that the District Council feels that this is something which needs further consultation
and therefore would like a pause, followed up by further scrutiny by ONS and then a more
detailed report sent later.
Councillor Nikki Ind - 2:31:14
Can I just check Andrew, is that a second motion after we voted on the first motion?Well you just said...
Councillor David Cunningham - 2:31:18
You just proposed something completely different.Excuse me, yes, that's a second motion.
I'd like to say...
Councillor Nikki Ind - 2:31:24
Okay, so I have one more person who had put down during this debate. Oh, and Councillor Coleman. Councillor Bloomfield.Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:31:35
Well, thank you chair. Yes, I can see that this is quite confusing.I'm very happy as chair of overview and scrutiny to set up a task of finished group on this to be done within a quick
I actually agree with Councillor Cunningham that actually we
should do a letter now, that the deadline is the first of April.
At least when we put in the full report from our overview and
scrutiny, we can say further to this letter where we showed our
concerns, we have now done further research,
and this is what, how the implications of your bill will
have on our farming community.
And it's not just that they're actually, they're economic,
it's actually the mental health.
We all know that lots of farmers, it's a stressful job.
It has a relatively high suicide rate, which is nothing
I want to dwell on here.
And also, it provides that vital thing for this country, food.
It is absolutely essential.
So that I feel, how we're going to do the motions,
where we're going to vote on them, but that's what I would
like to see.
A letter, firstly, I think doing as soon as possible.
Having been revised, checked over, made as strong as
followed with a view of scrutiny doing task and finish group. Thank you.
Councillor Nikki Ind - 2:32:50
Councillor Lisa Spivey - 2:32:52
Thank you. Councillor Spivey. Can I ask a question please?So in the obviously the second request in this motion is to write that letter
which we've been discussing but the first is and this word just like some
clarification of what actually the proposer means by agreeing to support
Cotswold farmers by campaigning against IHT reforms for farms. How do you envisage that
as a council, as campaigning against that? Because obviously if we were to vote for this
motion, we would be voting for both of those proposals. So I would just like some clarification
on what exactly that means, as a Cotswold district council. Is that using our newly
form -related comms team or us doing something personally.
Thank you Councillor Spivey. Did you want to respond Councillor Judd?
Councillor Julia Judd - 2:33:46
I will, I will because Mayor Colman...Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 2:33:51
Here isn't that a question to the... we're on the motion at the moment.And this is a question related to what happens if the motion is defeated.
Councillor Nikki Ind - 2:33:58
Sorry, you're right Councillor Jenkinson.So we'll park that one in a minute.
So Councillor Coleman you've had your hand up.
Councillor Patrick Coleman - 2:34:07
Thank you, Chair. I think I have only got about three points to make, so I hope notto take too long. First of all, I want to support the point that my colleague, Councillor
Angus, made, which is it doesn't help to make, in summary, don't make weak arguments in support
of your case. The golden rule in planning, quite good ruling licensing, quite good rule
in politics, and the bottom of page six, which he quoted, stating large farms are being bought
by businesses so that we take advantage of the 20 % tax advantage.
Yes that's why they're doing it.
They're doing it too fast and they're doing it without any kind of appreciation of farming.
We know that because they're the Labour Party.
But that's just something we have to live with with our voting system isn't it?
More importantly the next point is also rather a weak one.
Saying that tax discount to businesses or individuals buying agricultural land to avoid
tax should be abolished.
Well, how do you see, as Queen Elizabeth I declined to do, I believe, just before my time,
how can you look into men's souls?
They meant men and women at the time.
Of course, Mr Dyson would say, of course I bought it, reasons other than avoiding tax.
Mr Clarkson's on weaker ground because he actually said in public he did it to avoid tax,
but he can sort his own problems out.
There is a serious point here, which
is that you can't make that as a sensible point in my view.
Thirdly, I think we need to be aware
that the relief that applies to farmland,
but not to many other inherited assets,
was introduced in the 1980s.
And as I'm sure economists in time would have predicted,
this causes, that sort of relief,
causes the asset to increase massively in value.
As I understand it, the main cause of agricultural land price is quadrupling.
Even though we think prices have gone up a bit, there's not many prices have quadrupled since the 1980s.
So again, we need to, if we possibly can, and that's why I very much support the idea of a task and finish group,
get into grips with some of the facts and some of the analysis, some of the maths or data.
If we can actually see what they are doing wrong, and it is probably that they are doing
it too fast, why should any asset be free of inheritance tax?
Yes, lots of ways of avoiding inheritance tax, perhaps the trust method can be used.
I seem to remember a lot of people do that.
And therefore, without becoming totally incoherent, it would be really useful if we could ensure
that whatever we send is to the government is actually worth considering
because if you send this piece of letter they won't have any trouble picking the
two holes that's already been picked and probably finding a few others as well.
Thank you Councillor Coleman. Councillor Stowe. Yes thank you Chair.
Councillor Tom Stowe - 2:37:10
Just a bit ofclarification really because Councillor Robbins and Councillor Coleman seem to
believe that the contents of this letter will be this motion. Now that it's my
opinion this is a preamble to a motion laying out some facts I would hope that
the leader when writing this letter will put a bit more thought into it will not
just copy and paste the motion out of the council papers.
Councillor Nikki Ind - 2:37:33
Thank You councillor Stowe I think councillor Thayer you're on my list youCouncillor Jeremy Theyer - 2:37:39
are named. Patrick did just cover the 20 % tax they're still getting thatas a dodge from inheritance, which is still very good,
very lucrative, instead of the 40 % which the IST will abolish
and the Labour government thought that that would stop
rich people buying up land.
That won't make a harebrained idea of it.
People are still going to buy land and pay extortionate
amounts for it.
I know for a fact, Grade A arable land in the bread basket
of this country, Kent, growing massive growing areas,
you can buy that land up for 8 ,000 pound an acre.
It doesn't sound quite a lot of money.
You're nodding your head Patrick,
thinking, oh, that's a lot of money.
No, I'm not thinking it's cheap.
It's cheap, very cheap.
If you buy Cotswold brash with about that much topsoil
and heck a load of rock,
which does make a lovely rolling landscape,
and it will grow, what, a ton and a half to the acre,
if you don't put any too much chemicals on.
Whereas in the bread basket world where it's grade A,
you can grow three tons of the acre with no chemicals.
It's quite easy, no fertilizer, it will grow
and you will produce loads of crops.
But here, you're paying 16 ,000 pounds an acre upwards.
I know it says in the books,
it says it's about eight and a half thousand.
I can't even get my foot in the door at 10 to 16 ,000
for any old piece of ground
that you wouldn't grow anything on
and farm livestock on, you just lower numbers.
It's just economics.
It doesn't pay.
But I just another fact which is why I really stood out for
is we've got pictures on the wall.
Sheep, beautiful arable growing cornfields.
A picture, I think that's of Tethbury.
I'm not great in my...
Lechley, sorry, sorry Lechley and Tethbury.
But rolling landscape, beautiful sunsets.
That is all formed.
That wasn't just put on here just by accident.
That's all done by man.
Over centuries, farming, looking after, tending the land,
which Joe Harris did say about earlier in his talk.
I think really and truthfully, we need to just back our local farmers.
It's not a motion.
It's just, just try and help us just to wave a flag.
Other councils have done this.
They've backed us.
They've said we're going to stand with you.
That's all we really want is just to know that you're there.
We don't want to be driving around the countryside beeping our horns and waving at everyone.
We've got better things to be doing with our time.
We don't really want to be stood in chambers barking at you guys telling you all about
what I do.
It's just trying to produce food, trying to feed the nation.
Councillor Nikki Ind - 2:40:32
But I'll let you all continue debating.Thank you.
Right.
Councillor Judge, did you want to add something?
Councillor Julia Judd - 2:40:38
Well, no, only just to repeat really that I think you're all overthinking it.Please just write to the Chancellor's Chequers, voicing your support for Cotswolds farmers,
and Cotswolds are known for its beauty and its farming, just saying please consult before
enacting this IHT tax.
I know she's not going to change her mind because of our letter, but I think that our
farmers deserve to know that we care, that it's on our agenda, it's on our minds and
we're doing something. If you've got a better idea of what we can do,
Councillor Nikki Ind - 2:41:13
please tell me.Thank you. So, Councillor Harris, are you, can I just ask a quick question? So, are you
prepared to amend your motion to include this holding letter or not or am I looking at two
motions?
Councillor Joe Harris - 2:41:31
It sort of defeats the purpose of what I'm calling for.First of all, this April 1st deadline, as it's described, it's not a deadline.
Yes, that's when the changes will come into effect.
And as has been said, it doesn't matter what I say as leader of the district council in a letter,
I don't think Rachel Reeves is going to be the top of her postberg, unfortunately.
So I think there's a real opportunity here,
there's a real opportunity here to do justice by our farmers,
to really get under the skin of this issue,
to really understand what the current situation is here
in the Cotswolds.
And, you know, we do back our farmers.
I think we've all said that.
We've been very clear on that.
Both, you know, our lived national party policy is to
scrap this.
So you know we do back our farmers and I you know I totally understand that but I
think there's a real opportunity for us to here to do a deep dive really get
you know really get under the skin of what's happening here in the district
and write an informed letter yes to the chance of actually also I think to
to defer as well because you know let's not you know let's not forget the the
ministry as well. So you know I think we've heard it loud and we've heard it
We all back our farmers here in the Cotswolds.
Me just sending a letter, you know, what does it do?
It's tokenistic.
What we can do is really have a comprehensive review.
We can hear from farmers, we can hear from our MPs,
we can hear from the NFU, we can, who knows,
we can invite the government, a representative from the
government, so I think there's a real opportunity to do that and
make this meaningful rather than just some sort of tokenistic
motion that makes us feel better about ourselves.
It doesn't really give us any it doesn't really shed any light on the issues affecting our hard press farmers across the cosmos
Councillor Nikki Ind - 2:43:31
Right, thank you councillor Harris if I've got this right the we've got some wording for this or is it literally justSo we are now going to vote on the no notice motion to review
To refer this matter to the overview and scrutiny committee at the district council
Can we open the voting please, Keira?
.
Councillor Nikki Ind - 2:45:04
So that is actually passed.So 16 for, nine against with one abstention.
So that will get referred to overview and scrutiny and that will conclude the motion.
Yep.
Right.
Right, thank you colleagues.
All that remains for me to say
is that the next meeting of the council
will be held on the 21st of May,
and this will be the annual council meeting,
and it will start at 6 p .m.
Thank you very much.
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