Overview and Scrutiny Committee

Overview and Scrutiny Committee
Monday, 3rd March 2025 at 4:00pm

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Slide 1
Councillor Gary Selwyn
Julia Gibson, Officer
Councillor Gary Selwyn
Julia Gibson, Officer
Councillor Gary Selwyn
Councillor Dilys Neill
Councillor Gary Selwyn
Councillor Gary Selwyn
Councillor Gary Selwyn

3 Declarations of Interest

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4 Minutes

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Minutes , 03/02/2025 Overview and Scrutiny Committee

6 Chair's Announcements

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7 Public Questions

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8 Member Questions

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9 Report back on recommendations

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Councillor Gary Selwyn
Councillor Gary Selwyn
Councillor David Cunningham
Angela Claridge
Councillor David Cunningham
Councillor Gary Selwyn
Councillor Clare Turner
Councillor Gary Selwyn
Angela Claridge
Councillor Gary Selwyn
Councillor David Fowles
Councillor Gary Selwyn
Councillor Gary Selwyn
Councillor Gary Selwyn
CEO Rob Weaver
Councillor Gary Selwyn
Councillor Lisa Spivey
Councillor Gary Selwyn

10 Publica Transition Plan - Phase 2

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Councillor Gary Selwyn
Officer
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Councillor Gary Selwyn
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Councillor Angus Jenkinson
Officer
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Councillor Angus Jenkinson
Officer
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Councillor Angus Jenkinson
Councillor Gary Selwyn
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Councillor David Fowles
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Officer
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Cabinet Member
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Councillor David Fowles
Councillor Gary Selwyn
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Cabinet Member
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David Stanley, Deputy CEO
Councillor Dilys Neill
Officer
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Councillor Gary Selwyn
Councillor David Cunningham
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David Stanley, Deputy CEO
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Councillor David Cunningham
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David Stanley, Deputy CEO
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Councillor David Cunningham
David Stanley, Deputy CEO
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David Stanley, Deputy CEO
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Councillor Gary Selwyn
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Cabinet Member
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Officer
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David Stanley, Deputy CEO
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Councillor Gary Selwyn
Councillor Patrick Coleman
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Officer
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Councillor Gary Selwyn
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Officer
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David Stanley, Deputy CEO
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Councillor Jon Wareing
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Andrew Brown, Officer
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Councillor Lisa Spivey
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Councillor Angus Jenkinson
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Officer
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11 Service Performance Report 2024-25 Quarter Three

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Councillor Gary Selwyn
Councillor Clare Turner
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Councillor Len Wilkins
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Councillor Gary Selwyn
Councillor Clare Turner
Councillor Gary Selwyn
Officer
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Councillor Gary Selwyn
Councillor Dilys Neill
Officer
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Councillor Dilys Neill
Officer
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Officer
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Councillor Angus Jenkinson
Councillor Gary Selwyn
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12 Updates from Gloucestershire County Council Scrutiny Committees

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Councillor Angus Jenkinson
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Councillor Gary Selwyn
Councillor Gary Selwyn
Councillor Dilys Neill
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Councillor Dilys Neill
Councillor Gary Selwyn
Councillor Patrick Coleman
Councillor Dilys Neill
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Councillor Gary Selwyn
Councillor Gary Selwyn

13 Work Plan and Forward Plan

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Councillor Lisa Spivey
Councillor Gary Selwyn
Councillor David Cunningham
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Disclaimer: This transcript was automatically generated, so it may contain errors. Please view the webcast to confirm whether the content is accurate.

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 0:00:20

Good afternoon everybody. Welcome to Cotswold District Council's overview and scrutiny committee

Monday the 3rd of March you're all very welcome we haven't got a massive agenda

to get through but nevertheless there's some a couple of very interesting points

on it so I will try and make progress as much as I can do we have apologies yes

we have apologies from council Bloomfield to council Slater and

Julia Gibson, Officer - 0:00:48

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 0:00:51

Julia Gibson, Officer - 0:00:53

council of an substitute members we have council Wilkins substituting for council

Bloomfield, Councillor Foulds, substituting for Councillor Slater and

Councillor Coleman substituting for Councillor Bann. Thank you those people

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 0:01:05

who are substituting. Councillor Neill. As I just mentioned to you I need to leave

Councillor Dilys Neill - 0:01:10

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 0:01:12

at six o 'clock sorry. I will do my best to get through this in two hours but I

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 0:01:22

won't make any commitments. It's within my gift in theory. Thank you

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 0:01:24

Declaration of Interest from anybody at the outset of the meeting. If not, please make it known if anything comes to light during the meeting.

3 Declarations of Interest

4 Minutes

Minutes, pages 5 to 12. We're approving the minutes of ONS held on Monday the 3rd of Theb.

I know Democratic Services had a couple of bits and pieces from Councillor Turner and

Councillor Bloomfield.

Any other comments from the floor about accuracy or any other issues to the minutes?

Then we are accepting them, thank you very much.

Do we need a vote on that?

Could we vote then, accepting the minutes for those that were there?

Would you like to propose, Councillor Cunningham?

I propose.

Thank you.

Councillor Spivey seconding.

Those in favour who were there?

Thank you.

abstentions anybody against thank you chairs announcements I will apart the

6 Chair's Announcements

fact that I am of course the vice chair and I am substituting for council

Bloomfield I have no other announcements to make thank you public questions do we

7 Public Questions

8 Member Questions

have any public questions we don't thank you member questions super thank you

9 Report back on recommendations

very much indeed report back on recommendations page 13 I recall there

was a one -liner there is indeed a two -liner I'm even brief and I thought

which was Matthew Britton interim head of planning policy infrastructure was

able to confirm the next Morton and Marsh working group would meet 31st of

March any changes to that

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 0:03:14

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 0:03:17

Thank you, Chair. I understand that date might be being reconvened as it falls within pre -election.

Noted, thank you very much indeed.

Councillor Cunningham.

Councillor David Cunningham - 0:03:31

Can I ask the monitoring officer, as this is an advisory body only, is there any need for PIRDA to be in effect for that committee?

I believe so, chair.

Angela Claridge - 0:03:45

We are, pre -election starts on 25th of March.

The, I would say that the event is,

anything that is particularly sensitive or controversial,

which as I can tell by your reaction, you agree that it is.

So, my advice is that it doesn't go ahead during pre -election.

Thank you for the clarification.

Councillor David Cunningham - 0:04:05

Council Serna.

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 0:04:09

Councillor Clare Turner - 0:04:10

I wonder if the committee might make a recommendation to cabinet that given the

how much it's been delayed already and how important it is to the community

whether there's any way that we could bring it forward to so it's not in that

pre -election period but still make some progress before the action.

Who would like to respond to that?

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 0:04:28

I'll second it.

I'll third it.

I'll first it.

Mr. Tarridge.

Angela Claridge - 0:04:39

Chair and speak to Coney and colleagues.

I'm aware there's a certain level of interest on that particular

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 0:04:44

committee, so the point is well made. Thank you very much.

The reality is it is not the 26th, it is the 2nd of May.

Councillor David Fowles - 0:04:53

If you don't do it before, because you can't do it during the election whatsoever.

I am sure the people of Wharton would have a view on that.

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 0:05:07

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 0:05:08

Mr Rob Weaver.

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 0:05:10

Thank you.

CEO Rob Weaver - 0:05:14

So just for the record, I'm happy to feedback to planning colleagues and see whether it

would be possible to bring it forward.

But clearly we're already into March.

So we'll need to feedback to this committee to see if it's possible to bring it forward

beyond the 31st.

There are a lot of invites that need to go out and preparations that need to be done.

But Julie noted and I'll certainly feedback.

I just want to manage expectations to see whether it's possible.

Thanks.

Expectations managed. Thank you, Councillor Spivey.

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 0:05:43

Councillor Lisa Spivey - 0:05:45

Yes, I mean, if I may, I mean, we did know in February that the election was going ahead.

So again, you know, there's been quite a lot of urgency on this and we feel that having had the meeting last month

where we realised that realistically nothing had happened since January 2024

and we knew in February the elections were going ahead,

I would hope that we could find some way to engage meaningfully again with the community

having had one meeting only in October. Thank you.

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 0:06:14

Thank you, very helpful. That leads us on to agenda item 10. Public

10 Publica Transition Plan - Phase 2

Adgrandition Plan, pages 15 to 46 in your papers. I hope that we will give this an

hour. There's some flexibility but I hope it won't need more but let's see how we

go. So we have Accountable Officer Rob Weaver, Chief Executive, Accountable

member Joe Harris, leader of the Council, Andrew Pollard, report author, interim program

director of the Public Transition Program, and the point of this is to consider document

public transition, a plan for phase 2 of the Council's services, to note its contents and

approve the recommendations therein. I think we have three people who want to present,

as well as Andrew Pollard, and I believe we have Rob Weaver and David Stanley. Not David

And my Councillor Mike, Councillor Mike Everby, thank you.

Well gentlemen, if you'd like to come up here.

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 0:07:32

Would one of you like to do a broad introduction to what we're doing and the themes and where

We are to date.

Over to you, sir.

Thank you, chair.

Officer - 0:07:41

So we are here today to consider phase 2 of the public transition.

Councillors, you will recall that phase 1 went live on the 1st of November.

To get phase 2 going and to get it going in terms of what had previously been published

by way of the human engine report

and the local partnerships report,

which suggested a spring 2025 landing date for phase two.

We began planning for phase two back in September.

So we initially held a planning workshop with chief executives

of the three district councils

to consider broadly what might be in scope for a phase two.

And the principal concerns was around priority.

There are about a dozen or more service areas in the human

engineering force and in local partnerships.

We wanted to try and narrow it down a little bit.

So we came up with a sort of key list of property and estates,

leisure, waste, performance and business intelligence, ERS,

link line and care line, which needed further exploration.

We then went into a sort of service leader's workshop,

because it was clear that we needed to engage closely with

those that lead those areas of service within Publica,

Not least because unlike in phase one where there were very much more officers in publica

who were lifted and shifted across because they were identified to individual councils,

in phase two that's not the case.

All of those services were what's called fragmented where by far the majority of officers in publica

were performing across all of the geographies, across all of the district councils.

So it's quite key that we got clarity on exactly how these services worked, who was performing

them, where they performed and so forth.

So we essentially did a detailed review, service by service, council by council through the

autumn and then we began to drill down on exactly what councils were looking for from

this transition, what the targets were, what the aims and objectives were.

And we sort of begun to target a landing date of June or July.

And if you think about working back as we did before,

if we land as we're now proposing on the 1st of July

and you work back, you need two to three months for TUPE

and consultation and so forth.

And even for planning and advertising roles.

That gets us to now really for consideration of phase two

to be able to land it by the 1st of July.

So we, with the data and information we gather

through the due diligence process, we began modeling

on the 1st of January.

So we've stepped on it and we built a plan

that gained acceptance by council officers during January

and then finished off a detailed transition plan

which is presented to you here today.

We were mindful that this forum had previously asked

that we reflect on phase one before we went too far down the track.

Now, of course, with phase one, in terms of KPIs and performance, service performance,

it's not possible really two to three months in to really assess that.

That comes much later.

So you're not really going to be able to mark out whether any objectives in terms of KPIs are there.

But I think generally the feedback that we've obtained from a number of sources,

So, officer transition board, those one -to -one conversations with employees that have transitioned

across and those counselors we've engaged with through the process would suggest that

the general, generally phase one went well.

It was delivered on time and in budget.

The TUPE transition was smooth.

No challenges to the transition.

And what was clear was that the advice that we obtained for TUPE was followed as it will

be followed for phase two.

Systems and processes generally worked well.

There were some small items within business world,

which is the system that supports financial reporting

accounting, but nothing major, and those are being worked

through.

Payroll works, which is very important, because it's vital

that people, the right people are paid on the right day,

at the right time, in the right location, and that was done.

Communications are quite challenging, and that's probably

to be expected. Probably today you have your own communications team, you're perhaps able

to shape that more for what you're looking to achieve, but equally it was challenging

and of course communications was itself part of phase one, which was challenging. Project

management office resources were lean, that was deliberate, keep costs tight, I leveraged

internal resource through the business, through each council,

through the work streams, that was something that I wanted

to do from the off, has several advantages, not just in cost,

but there's another key advantage in engagement

and involvement, in bringing key officers to the table

at an early stage and engaging them in tasks that involve them

in the process, it's really important.

And we developed a hub and spoke approach to this,

meaning that we had a lean centre that relied heavily on specialists throughout Publica and the councils to make this happen.

So I want to just take the opportunity to thank my colleagues in Publica and the councils for helping us get this far, which has been really helpful.

In terms of the shape of Phase 2, we alighted on property estates, leisure contract management, waste, project management and careline and linkline.

That last one is a service that Forest of Dean run. It could have been part of phase one

We just needed to sort out a few points of detail

We we've not done

ERS

Environment regulatory services and performance and business intelligence for this phase

I think at the end of the day when we looked at the benefits of doing those and the costs of doing them

They're almost entirely fragmented services significant costs in moving in moving people around

And quite disruptive also for services that work quite well in their existing form.

Plus, you know, in terms of getting value and focus, it was important to focus Phase

II on those areas where you could make maximum impact in relation to your corporate plan

objectives.

So if you mapped the corporate plan objectives that you have and mapped what's being done

here, those services are either moving across here under the plan for Phase II or they already

where you've moved across to phase one.

So that gets you hopefully to where you're looking to be.

In terms of numbers, they're in the report.

At the moment, you have a share of 60 roles.

There are 10 roles that are directly attributable

to COTSWOLD and another 12 roles that are being created

under structured charts that are bespoke to COTSWOLD.

So the COTSWOLD chart is not mirrored by the others.

they will look to their own requirements,

and that's absolutely right.

We're sovereign authorities, and part of the reason

for doing this is to act in a sovereign way

for your people and your locality.

So you've got a locality focus here,

and that's reflected in the way this is structured.

We're also mindful of the upcoming local government

reorganization.

We've been mindful of that for some time.

So when we thought about this, we thought, well,

you know, what's coming down the track?

it would be wrong not to horizon set in that respect,

at least to the extent that you can, and there's lots of unknowns.

And so essentially it's important, we feel, to keep those considerations in mind,

keep the focus on services most aligned to your corporate plan delivery,

and also to balance delivery of the day job,

services you need to deliver every day, with the reorganisation here.

So next steps are is that this is the first in a series of overview and scrutiny meetings

that are happening across the piece.

The other two councils will be meeting this week, followed by a cabinet, followed by four

council.

And as before, all three districts will need to agree this through all those three forums

to go through the process before we can say that this is something that is to be preceded

with and assuming that's the case immediately from April the team moves

into implementation mode as before and into cheap consultation beginning to

form the structures that your council's developed for your for your requirements

and then with a go live 1st of July because as before the go live date has

to be the first of a month we can't make it first of June there's not enough time

It has to be 1st of July.

And so if I step back from it, clearly there's a continuing need for all councils to consider

what savings can be delivered, how income can be raised, how the immediate and financial

strategy can be delivered, and the LGR impacts.

But essentially what we've done here is we've looked at what's impactful, what can be done

most effectively with least disruption and most aligned to your plan, and that's the

basis of this plan, Councillors. So thank you for listening to that. I'm obviously happy

to take questions. Thank you.

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 0:17:21

Thank you very much. And I'd like to hear the summary of how you feel phase 1 has gone.

And thank you very much for the very readable and detailed report you've submitted. It's

so well written I think I actually understood most of it as well. So thank you very much.

Mr Weaver, anything you want to add to what was said there?

Not this day, thanks, Chair.

Councillor Avami?

No.

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 0:17:45

I'll open it up for comments and views.

I saw Councillor Jenkinson followed by Councillor Fales.

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 0:17:52

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you very much for your report.

Thank you very much for the verbal report and the written one.

If I may be so personal, you seem much more relaxed at this particular presentation than

the first one that you gave to us, and I take that as a positive sign.

Looking at this report, I sense that there are two kinds of process which might be different

in type rather than importance, one of which might be characterised more as the administrative

HR, all of the practicalities involved with transition, and the other which is also an

intention to lead to process, organisation and other improvements over a period of time.

The focus at the moment it seems to me, if I have understood it right, is on the former,

the administrative HR aspects, of course done in such a way as to support the future, but

that was the focus. Am I correct?

Officer - 0:19:05

So I think that's broadly right because essentially what we're establishing here is a process to be followed.

And it's really important that there is a process, one that it has been advised on and it has been.

And that helps ensure the opportunity for consultation is there.

If a process is clear and it's followed, the clarity is also there and challenge, we avoid

challenge with phase one, we want to seek to do that through proper consultation in

phase two, exactly the same way.

But that does lead on to the second part of what you say, which is about essentially change,

the organisation change aspect, which would then occur inside the council, just as is

in with phase one, if that's fair to say.

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 0:19:59

Then my follow -up question is, given that it's not that long before you expect all of

this to have happened, what plans are already being made or have been made towards the next

phase?

Because you wouldn't want to arrive there and then start thinking about it, I assume.

Officer - 0:20:18

So if I can just unpick that.

There are no plans that I'm aware of of another phase

of transition at the moment.

But clearly there is, there are a series of elements

that go towards the delivery of this phase of transition.

And those are all of the same kinds of elements

that were there with phase one.

So around the process of QP, the process of advertising roles,

the process of recruitment process of embedding

And and that that's all there. That's all part of the plan as for the previous phase

There isn't as far as I'm aware a process for anything further by way of another transition phase

I find no instructions on any of that

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 0:21:05

Then chair I would recommend that we do

Ask for some consideration of that particular aspect and that we hear about that in due course

as being something critical to the reason for doing the whole exercise,

in significant part the reason for doing the whole exercise,

and to make sure we have the proper management for doing it.

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 0:21:27

We can add something to that, can we not?

Thank you. Councillor Fowles was next.

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 0:21:37

Councillor David Fowles - 0:21:41

Thank you for your presentation, both written and oral.

The question I want to ask is, you said in your presentation that all three councils

have to agree to the next stage. We have had discussions about the implications of government's

decision to switch, and we have been told to switch for the devolution, et cetera, et

which is halfway through our discussions about publica.

I can't remember the exact start date,

but we started on publica before the general election,

but obviously phase one was completed after we knew

that there would be a devolution agenda.

And my concern is what happens if one or other

of those other partners decide

that they don't want to proceed?

And is there a plan B, putting it bluntly?

Are we all committed and is your assessment, because you're the man that's driving it,

that all three partners will sign up?

Or is there any indication that there is a degree of nervousness on the other two partners'

behalf?

There is here, but it's a very small degree, because some of us are not in the ruling group,

so we're just nervous.

So it's a very key question.

There's no doubt about that.

Officer - 0:23:04

So I've been following this whole process right through from the beginning.

And I've taken temperature tests as I've gone along.

I can honestly say I wouldn't have brought forward a plan like this in this form and this kind.

Had I been in any doubt that there'd be concern that this wasn't going to fly in one of the councils.

That said, you're always open to councils making decisions.

Councils are sovereign, they're able to make their own decisions.

In temperature testing, as I've gone through, this has been a collaborative approach right from the start.

It was agreed right from the start and at every stage, and I think, Rob, you verified that,

that it's really important that everything is done in concert at the same time, on the same basis, on an agreed basis.

So, you know, it's open to any one of the councils for phase two to say, well, actually,

I want something different or something else.

That isn't what's happened here.

Everyone has agreed the same basis.

It's a consistent plan.

And there may be very small variations in the covering report because that would always

be so for each council.

But the plan is a set plan.

So I'm confident that councils will agree this plan.

If the council if a council decided not to read this plan wanted something else

Then then of course we go back to the forum that exists for discussion of the process

Which is the officer transition board and we'd need to find a way of doing of doing it differently

But it would be a departure from what's been agreed today to just do everything in concert

Cabinet Member - 0:24:51

Can I just add something to Councillor Fowle's question.

If I recall whilst devolution was in the government's manifesto when they got elected, full scale

local government reorganisation, the abolition of district councils was not.

So that only became emergent as a theme in the autumn.

We were already a long way through the process.

So if I finish my answer, so you can come back and ask me other questions.

But essentially, when we started this process, local government reorganization on the scale

and the implication of it for this council and the other councils in Gloucestershire

and across the wider country was not on the agenda.

It only came onto the agenda in the autumn and officially when the government published

their white paper in December.

Councillor David Fowles - 0:25:35

Thanks for clarifying that, which is why I asked the question.

Because obviously it's been...

You'll have the dates perhaps more close to hand than I will,

but obviously the ballpark has changed.

It's going to be a very different place,

and that's why I just wanted to ask the question,

fully expected to get the answer I got,

that there's been litmus testing all the way through

and that we don't expect any one of our two partners

to not support this but I just someone had to ask the question thank you for

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 0:26:09

asking Chancellor Fowles we have we have Councillors Neil Cunningham and then

Spivey in that running order Councillor Neil yes my first question was about

Councillor Dilys Neill - 0:26:22

link line so that's not going to be funded by the first of Dean would it I

think that there are some of my residents use it so is it still going to

be available to the people who are currently using it? How is that going to work?

Officer - 0:26:39

So the Linkline service is currently, had to be hosted by the Forest of Dean and Cotswold

uses that service and pays for that share. That is still the case. It is just that currently

those people who provide that service are public employees. They will be Forest of Dean

employees and so be led by the Forest of Dean and you your residents would see no

Councillor Dilys Neill - 0:27:07

change in proposition at all. Okay because on I think Caroline Linkline on

the page 45 the budget is all under the Forest of Dean so they would somehow be

reinvested would they for that service?

Cabinet Member - 0:27:27

It's helpful I think Councillor Neill the service is run, David will correct me if I'm

wrong, the service is run by Forest 15 and essentially it's available to residents in

our district and the costs of that, if there are any costs, are supported for our residents

by us but it might be and maybe David can answer this the service but I'm not

Cabinet Member - 0:27:50

sure so David might be able to give us more information on that. Thank you chair

David Stanley, Deputy CEO - 0:27:56

and just to reiterate the service pre transfer that some business with phase

two has always been run by the Forest Dean for a number of years at least 20

years. That ensures that Forresterdean, which provide the link line service in the forest

and the care line service for us, are providing that at their risk. There's no cost to this

council of that service being provided. So all the costs of running the service sit with

the Forresterdean in their contracts and with Publica, but all the income that they collect

from clients that subscribe to that service accrue to the Forresterdean. So there will

no change in the arrangement and it's shown in a particular way in the documentation to

recognise that under the contract sum, Cotswold currently plays zero towards that and that

won't change.

Councillor Dilys Neill - 0:28:49

And then the other thing is, which I think Councillor Fowles was mentioning before, or

Councillor Jenkins, I can't remember, you mentioned that there are some fragmented services

which are not being transferred back in phase two.

So, these fragmented services will remain

under the public heading, will they?

Or is there a plan to do anything else with those?

Officer - 0:29:12

Okay, so let me perhaps go back over fragmentation

because perhaps I went over that quite quickly.

But essentially, the point I made earlier was

that the distinction between phase one and phase two was

in phase one, it was largely what we termed

in these terms lift and shift.

so employees were already identified to working to individual councils within

the public a cohort to the main about 90 % were just just around their circa in

this phase in more than 50 % are what would be called fragmented so they're

they're operating day to day for several councils so more than just one council

sometimes it's two sometimes it's three so under the advice received in support

of previous phase that we got on cheapy that doesn't constitute a cheapy so

cheapy doesn't apply so where cheapy doesn't apply your advertising roles

from from scratch so it's why I also been described that number of your roles

are attributed to you and a number of roles are new to you and the ones that

are new to you are the ones that are advertised because they're not cheapy

Thank you very much.

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 0:30:26

Thank you Councillor Neill. Councillor Cunningham, you're very welcome.

Councillor David Cunningham - 0:30:32

Thank you Mr Chair. I have three questions. We'll ask them in descending order.

A quick one for David. What's the Stop Forest suddenly start charging us?

They said they were not going to charge us at the moment, but there's nothing that says they can't charge us for that service going forward.

I'd just be interested if we've got guarantees that they won't.

My second question is, I'm reading this Annex B.

There's a chart with all the pretty bars on it. I love a bar chart.

Is it right that the solution that we're going for is actually more expensive than the solution that Publica gave us?

And why would we choose that?

And the last question is, can someone please give me a total figure for the cost of this transition?

not this part, but the entire transition of all services out of Publica and into the Council.

Just one number for the whole thing. Thank you.

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 0:31:29

Thank you. Who would like to pick up those in whatever order?

David Stanley, Deputy CEO - 0:31:37

Mr Stanley. If I may, Chair, in terms of the Careline

link line service that is currently being provided by Forest of Dean, to the best of

my knowledge there has never been a charge from the Forest

Dean to this council that service that's provided.

It's provided at their risk.

I do not have any guarantees that they

won't seek to make a change.

But neither do I have any indication that they would

seek to make a change.

So in all the discussions that we've

had around the Care Line Mink Line service,

that would repatriate to Forest Dean from Publica

with no impact on this council.

But obviously, we will take that comment from you

and that concern from the committee and clarify that point.

Mr. Chair, if I could just say that I think there's a phrase,

Councillor David Cunningham - 0:32:19

something along the line of previous results don't necessarily guarantee future performance.

And yes, and your second question?

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 0:32:31

David Stanley, Deputy CEO - 0:32:35

Total cost of the public transition.

So this was included in the budget papers.

So starting with the one -off costs, the Council set aside

500 ,000 pounds in an earmarked reserve to cover the costs of

managing the transition.

That is in the budget papers was assumed to have 225 ,000 of that

cost remaining to support phase two.

We have been doing an update to that as part of our regular

monitoring. That will be part of the Q3 report that Cabinet will receive in April, which

will indicate there's probably more available to support Phase 2 than previously suggested

in the budget papers. In terms of other one -off costs, 300 ,000 were set aside in the financial

resilience reserve to cover the cost of redundancy and pension strain costs associated with Phase

We are comfortably below that number currently, and an update will be provided in the Q3 financial

performance report.

And the budget papers also made an assumption that a similar provision would be made for

the cost -redundancy and pension strain associated with phase two.

That based on current information would be significant over -provision, but clearly that's

got to work through a consultation process. We've set aside a prudent amount based on

previous experience, but we will be reporting back to members through the financial performance

reports the actual costs incurred against each of those provisions. So you could look

at it that the council has set aside a $1 .1 million to support it with the cost of the

public a transition. The actual amount that will have been spent at that $1 .1 million

we will report as we close the financial year in the both in the Q3 report and in the final

out -turn and keep members updated on the phase two costs as they come through because there

is a degree of assumption and estimation in those numbers.

In terms of the enduring impact of phase one, that is 481 ,000 that was set out in the November

report in terms of an update from the July position and was again updated in Q2 report

to Cabinet in December and again in January and was the same number that was used in the

budget papers that Council approved last Monday. The broad assumption is that for Phase 2 we

have allowed for 300 ,000 as the enduring full year impact of Phase 2, £225 ,000 in the initial

year as there's a part year effect and again subject to the detailed consultation on structures

and proposals that's been set out the detailed transition plan I am confident that's a prudent

estimate and we will be looking to find ways and to maintain that or contain that cost

below the 300 ,000 that's been set aside.

Councillor David Cunningham - 0:35:37

Thank you very much Mr Chair I think Mr Stan should be a politician because there was a

very long, he didn't give me a big number at the end of it.

But anyway, so we can say that so far we've spent something like 700 ,000 out of a 1 .1 budget.

Can you say that?

David Stanley, Deputy CEO - 0:35:53

I shall confirm the latest number via email to all members of the committee.

I wouldn't want to misadvice you what that number is.

And I should also confirm what the total enduring impact is of phase one, which is 481 ,000.

And if you include the 300 ,000 of the enduring impact for phase 2, you get to 781 ,000.

But clearly, the 300 ,000 for phase 2 is an estimate, and that is also dependent on consultation

and final numbers as they come through.

I would very much appreciate that.

Councillor David Cunningham - 0:36:29

It could be in the minutes that we're going to get that.

And the last question was, I think, for you, sir.

Officer - 0:36:42

Yeah, great. Thank you for the question. So, yeah, so phase one would have set out a lot

of the key principles around the public transition. Those still hold true. So, yes, clearly there

are cost increases in some of those areas. Hopefully, as you've heard, there will also

be cost decreases in some of the other areas. But just quickly to remind members, clearly

we will now have greater autonomy on where the spend goes.

So rather than getting a staffing budget or a bill for staffing at the end of each year,

we will have greater autonomy about where that staffing budget now goes.

We talked previously around some of the constraints and difficulties around recruitment and retention,

especially in service areas like planning, and a large part of that was due to the fact

that we couldn't attract planners from neighbouring authorities because we weren't providing LGPS.

So clearly an increase to our costs, which is the same in phase two as it was for phase

one, is the reference to LGPS that we will be offering, because we need to offer that.

So that would also push the prices up.

Phase two, as Andrew was saying, is interesting as well, because there's more fragmented roles.

So when we're looking to create teams, council side, clearly there are going to be some areas

where rather than having a percentage or proportion of a post, we're looking to create a post.

So in some of those service areas where we've currently got staff in say property or assets that are working across two or three councils

We've identified the need to have a single person council side. So there'll be some increases there around the fragmentation

Davis covered off the enduring impact so I won't done that one

I think the other thing it gives us more control over and members will be well aware of this in terms of things like

the use of agency and interims

So the advantage of being able to recruit more of our own planners means that we can hopefully drive down the cost associated with interim agents, which costs an absolute fortune.

Publica were presenting a spend associated with agencies across the board.

Now that was both advantageous and disadvantageous because it meant that Publica had a broader vacancy spend or a vacancy pot that they were able to offset some of those costs against.

But it did mean that again the council were very limited in its ability to be able to

shape up whether some of those agencies were recruited or not.

So hopefully a reduction in agency spend through better recruitment will be something that

puts us in a better position moving forward.

But yeah, I don't think anyone is shying away from the fact that there are increases in

some of those costs against the public offer.

But we're talking very much about being able to focus the teams on CDC's projects and priorities

rather than some of the issues we've had around project delivery where simply I think the

reality is some of the publicist staff have been spread too thin.

So those are some of the reasons why costs will increase in some areas and I think they're

the same as for phase one but on a smaller scale because phase two is now a bit more

limited so hopefully that helps.

No, that does.

I mean the 37 % increase from the baseline, we all know that a lot of that's to do with

the pension thing.

Councillor David Cunningham - 0:39:44

I was just... because if you look at West Oxfordshire, they didn't have...

the solution that was given to them by Publica was more expensive than the one that they ended up doing.

And for Forest of Dean, there was a difference of like £10 ,000 between what Publica said and what the final bill was.

But with ours it's £35 ,000, which seems like quite a lump. It's nearly 5 % more expensive.

But what you're saying is that you think that going forward that there will be savings from us doing it ourselves that will more than make up for that.

Officer - 0:40:23

Yeah, absolutely. And that comes back to being able to be more in charge of our staffing and our financial destiny.

So yeah, as David said, we'll be looking very closely at what services are currently doing, how they can do that more efficiently.

And the other thing, and apologies, I don't know if this was covered off earlier,

But part of the piece of work that we done is around a rebasing of that

original budget

So when publica was created in 2017 it was largely a let's split this three ways and there'll be winners and losers over time

But hopefully the whole thing will even itself out. I think the reality is shown that there have been

Differences in the

Spend of each of those councils that that rebasing will enable us to do so

I'm not sure if you want to add anything on the rebasing, but that is essentially a cost -saving because that rebasing of us spending

Only what we pay for within publica, which hasn't necessarily been the case in the past will hopefully bring that budget level down as well

Yeah, thank you chair just in terms of the rebasing there was a

David Stanley, Deputy CEO - 0:41:22

decision on the July 2024 detailed transition plan to have that effective from the

26, 27 financial year.

There's quite a considerable amount of work that needs

to be done to provide the evidence to support a change

in the cost base and how those costs are apportioned out.

It's fair to say that when we've looked at ways in

which we can influence the cost base within public,

we haven't had the levers to enable us to pull to either

slow things down, speed things up, do less of

something because it's required that negotiation

across three councils.

So part of the benefit, which you can't necessarily

measure financially, is that responsiveness that if we

need to slow things down, that's within our gift.

We need to put more investment in, that's within our gift.

But clearly the rebasing is going to put back to each

council the true cost of the services that public

is providing.

I think it is fair to say that over the last four or five years there has been a growing

view that the Council has been getting a disproportionate share of those costs compared to the benefit

it is receiving and that will be addressed.

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 0:42:46

I will just bring in Councillor Spivey and then Coleman and then Councillor Jenkinson

who will comment on what we have just done.

I am very keen to get people who have been sitting here not speaking in for a while.

So, forgive me if I go to Councillor Spivey next.

Councillor Lisa Spivey - 0:43:00

Thank you. I just kind of want to pick up on all of these points.

So, absolutely, you know, LGR was not in the Labour Manifesto.

It came to all of us as quite a shock when we had that briefing on the 16th,

the publication of the White Paper on the 16th of December.

So, obviously, it had a huge impact.

I just wondered a couple of things.

So in terms of LGR and actually the payback term of us transitioning to our own sovereign

council, so have we taken into consideration what that period is?

So there are obviously upfront costs now for taking people back in, but obviously that

payback, and I appreciate as well that payback isn't always just in financial terms, it's

on not requiring certain things more, it's about social value, it's about all sorts of

I don't know how you can factor that and therefore what.

We are looking at the reality of that white paper would mean that this council won't exist

in three years time, so are we ever going to see the payback?

We are spending this money up front, do we ever get it back and how does that work with

the sort of absorption of Cotswold district council into the other six councils?

We talked at one point as well of sharing services and potentially transitioning, but

then possibly sharing services again.

We talked often about the most likely partner in that being West Oxfordshire.

With LGR, again, that would seem then not to be potentially an option because we would

probably end up not in a combined authority with them and therefore will make it quite

difficult.

I wondered if any of that had been factored into costs towards in the future.

The third thing was around understanding, especially around planning and enforcement

in particular, what those benefits have been.

I think I would like to put it, perhaps this committee looks at that at the November meeting

so we get a report back on what the effects one year on have been in terms of most importantly

around that recruitment piece, where we are at,

because obviously it is too early now to say,

but I would hope that after a year

we would be able to have an indication

of how much that has proved to be successful

and whether we have got many less of those agency

and interim staff which were costing us a lot of money.

Thank you.

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 0:45:28

Yes, can I bring in Mike Eavenby first then,

and gentlemen after? Thank you.

Yeah, thanks.

Cabinet Member - 0:45:33

Thank you, Councillor Spivey, for your questions.

I'm going to pick up the first one if that's okay,

and ask colleagues to pick up the other one.

So, payback, it's a difficult one because obviously

what we haven't done is presented a,

this is how much we're going to spend on this

and this is all the great benefits

in terms of a classic business case.

You know, what we've talked about in this committee

before you've been a member,

but obviously also at the last meeting as well,

is essentially the reasons that we were doing this,

making this change were that we didn't one of the reasons was that financially

we didn't believe it was sustainable the public and model because we couldn't

make the savings that David was just talking about in his answer to the

previous question in terms of we didn't have the sovereignty to be able to say

no sorry we don't want that service anymore or we want to spend more money

on that and if we want to spend more money on it we have to go into a

negotiation with two other councils so I think fundamentally than what we found

and I know you've found this as a cabinet member,

is that the model didn't fit for the sorts of councils

that we now are.

It might have fitted for the councils 10 years ago

who were all of the same political flavor who

had very similar agendas.

We now have very different councils, the three main

councils in public are with different agendas

that want to do things and found that the model didn't

really work.

So I think in terms of, but moving on to then,

what comes forward, I'm looking at this as a cabinet

and members of transformation,

looking at how we can essentially make those services fit

for not just the next couple of years,

but the next 10 years.

Now, obviously, if the LGR happens

as the guts of the government's timetable,

we won't be here in three years' time.

But those services will still, we hope,

want to be provided on behalf of whatever our successor

is to our residents.

And so I think it's incumbent on us as an administration,

our officers, to provide services,

to get our services to a point that

when the new council takes over,

they are able to continue with those.

So we talked about the budget meeting, didn't we,

last week about the financial viability of the council

and the pressures that we're under

because of potential reductions in government funding.

So we have to get to a point whereby

you know we're making our services more efficient fit for the future so that

when a new council does come along you know whether it's one that's currently

the footprint of three districts or one that's currently the footprint of six

that they can look at the services that we're providing here and say yeah that's

the model that we want to apply to the other councils what we don't want to be

in is our services are essentially not fit in terms of for the new council and

And we have drastic changes at the point where we go, the new council has to take over.

I think it's incumbent on us in the remainder of our terms to provide services that can

be taken on by the new council and get the benefits of coming back from Publica.

But I'll pass over to other colleagues to answer the other two questions.

Thanks, Mike.

Officer - 0:48:42

So, yes, in terms of sharing services, so there are some examples, and I'll just try

refresh my memory, but there are some examples where some different unitaries

do still share some of those shared services. So the example was

Cambridge City, South Cams and Huntingdon share ICT even though they're in

different unitaries. So an ICT might not be a bad example because we

know we've got a shared ICT at the moment and so there could be some scope

even with different councils being in different unitaries to continue to just

see where that shared service works. You can see why it might work with ICT

because it's big, it's important, it's something which largely can be run

through back office systems. It might be harder to try and identify a what I call

an operational shared service area like say environmental health or licensing

where you've got part of the public problem which is the geographies are so

big. So never say never but I think I'm just coming back on one of the questions

that was raised at the beginning a lot of thought went into what the phase two

service areas look like.

So the three CEOs, along with some of the senior managers,

were looking down and saying, LGR is on the horizon,

but you're absolutely right, we didn't know the detail until

January of this year, and the first phase landed in November.

What does that mean for the rest of the services in phase two?

So the services that have been identified as priority areas are

those areas that are either political priorities and or

big spend.

So waste and recycling, our second biggest spend

after publica.

We know that we're going to need to transform how we do waste and recycling

So the idea of having that council side and us directly employing our head of waste and environment

And having the contract management council side rather than that being shared gives us greater autonomy about where we could do things differently

And so that's one of the reasons why waste and recycling is an important area to bring back

Property and assets in a similar vein if we're going to do something different with our assets. We need control over how we do that

So the current shared services are Environmental Health, so ERS, which we share with West.

That is a system and a service that's working pretty well.

And if LGR wasn't on the horizon, then we may well have considered what a phase three transition to repatriate all of those services would have looked like.

But clearly we need to prioritise and the options were either continue to bring everything back, don't bring anything back at all, or do a bit of a hybrid.

And the hybrid I think strikes that balance between those key priority areas or big spend

areas whilst recognising that we've still got three -ish years to run.

We're not in phase one for the reorganisation, so we could be looking at 27, 28.

And that felt too long for us to simply allow things to continue in some of those priority

areas, but not so long that for some of the services like ERS that's currently functioning

pretty well, couldn't continue to do so.

And furthermore the idea of unpacking a West Oxfordshire and a CDC shared service twice

Didn't really fill anybody including the staff with any comfort

So that's why we've done the work around what the phase two services currently look like

And yeah, I think what we now need to do pick it up on the combat comment earlier around

What does a phase three process look like is consider? How do we do some of those shared service arrangements?

What might stack up in the new world?

but clearly

Publica will cease to exist as the council will cease to exist.

So we do need to plan for the demise and the dissolution of Publica as part of that process.

So we're working with Publica, MD and others in order to do that transition.

So hopefully that helps.

Can I just bring in David Stanley on that?

David Stanley, Deputy CEO - 0:52:33

Just on the point about understanding, I suppose, that the way the costs are flowing through

and the reliance on agency staff.

So back in January, this committee and cabinet

considered the quarter to update report,

which included planning services.

Table three in that report highlighted that for the period

from the first of November to the end of this financial year

we were gonna spend 367 ,000 pounds on agency staff.

So there's been considerable recruitment undertaken

following the transfer of staff and touch wood,

we will have a full complement of planning staff working for Cotswold District Council

by the end of this financial year, thereby reducing that cost on agency staff.

Clearly the next part of that will be monitoring that and understanding how the performance

of the planning service can improve both financially and in terms of outcomes as a result of that recruitment.

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 0:53:29

Thank you Mr Stearny. That was a very interesting set of responses. Thank you.

Let me bring in our super substitute, Councillor Coleman.

Councillor Patrick Coleman - 0:53:40

I'm a chair, if I were a super substitute, then I'd probably keep my mouth shut.

Serious, it's been really much more interesting than I expected.

And I'm glad...

And I really want to take the opportunity first of all to say thank you to Mr Pollard

and his team for getting us this far.

and indeed to the Chief Executive for working with them.

I think as I've gone through all the different things I might have asked,

they've all been crossed out and dealt with other people or perhaps are irrelevant.

What is a G -A -N -T -T? I'm going to say who knows what that stands for.

Have we got an example that's irrelevant today I think.

More importantly, there's an opportunity to think a bit strategically

which Councillor Henry started on, which is basically if there's two options

for the new unitary, a big year, two small, two medium or one giant,

then we should be able to make some guidance and advice to the people who will succeed us

as to how to do it so they do not end up with spending 300 and something thousand on agency staff

in a relatively short period of time in one service.

I'm a bit concerned for instance that the services we are leaving behind in public care

are going to be something, may become a little bit of a left behind service, unattractive,

poor pension rights and so on. The idea that people who have to study for four years or

more to graduate and beyond to get a significant professional qualification can then be conned

into working for very poor pensions was always a poor one. However, we mustn't reorganise

too often. That's the other thing that we're reminded of.

So, I think the question really is, is there a risk that the Council's involvement in

Publica and the leadership of Publica, because as I can remember, quite substantial meetings

with Publica held up towards Cheltenham in the early days of our administration nearly

six years ago, where we really got to grips with the issues following changes of control

and so on. And we got some responses. And I'm a little bit concerned that as we move

towards the unitaries, we need to be able to give appropriate guidance and direction

as the owners of Publica. And am I right about that? Would you agree with me?

Cabinet Member - 0:56:03

I think that's a political question, so I think I should answer that, Patrick, if that's

I remember that early meeting after I was elected in 2019.

I think it was the publicer AGM, or it was on the same day we weren't invited to the AGM.

That was just for the shareholders.

A lot has happened since then.

As I said, I think in my response to the question from Councillor Spivey a few minutes ago,

I think we got to a point where we found the publicer model no longer worked.

and we as an administration tried our absolute best to work with it.

I know there are some members that felt that we didn't, maybe in the opposition, but we absolutely did.

And we tried to make it work to align with what we were seeking to do as our administration.

And I think the issue is that it was set up as a cost -saving exercise

to provide standard levels of service across three local

authorities that were politically aligned with the

same agenda.

And when we got elected in 2019, our leader went along

to the meeting and we found those of us into the

administration that we would ask and seek to do things,

and the resources just wasn't there to do them

because the model didn't fit that.

You know, we also found that the model basically, I

think undermined the sovereignty of the individual councils where the public of

brand was more significant than the council brand and the leader very

strongly said that was wrong and we've changed that but the fundamentals of it

are more that you know the the model you know when it was sold I think to members

and there's probably only one member who was on the council at the time on a two

I think Len might have been to get that Councillor Wilkins and Councillor Fowles

might have been at the time and they might want to come back on it but I

I think it was sold as a way in which we could provide services

more cost effectively.

And as you pointed out, Patrick, in a significant manner,

that the reduction in cost has been not

to provide as good a pension to those employees joining

public areas if they had joined a council.

And so the large part of the additional cost

that we're now facing is giving people the same pension

that they would have got if they were employed by the council.

So I think in terms of continuing Publica, clearly the leader remains our shareholder,

you know, there's still a board and, you know, the Publica is a company which we own, so

it is accountable to us through the leader's shareholding.

And that will continue up and until the point where, you know, the company was just discussed

will, as the leader, as the chief executive has just said,

will no longer exist as and when its own councils no longer

exist.

So I think, yes, in terms of how we work going forward,

I think that will continue to be a focus.

There will still be services.

I'm conscious there are public and staff in the room providing

these services to our residents.

And they will continue to do the jobs that they do,

providing services such as revenues and benefits.

We've talked about ERS quite a lot.

And so all of the other services that those staff

continue to provide on our behalf and it's incumbent

on us from a political point from the administration

to make sure that, you know, we are providing the

support and the direction to that company to make sure

those services are the best they possibly can be.

Thank you, Chair.

Officer - 0:59:50

Just to add from an officer perspective, I think in a way local government reorganisation

and devolution discussions have brought both organisations closer because we are both working

to the same ends, which is a very different structure and operating base that we're both

used to.

And that has focused minds in terms of identifying what we need to do as a group of officers

to put our great staff, public and council side, in the very best positions for whatever

the brave new world throws at them.

So one of the work streams which is taking place across the county is around people and

culture.

And it's got the representatives of pretty much the heads of HR, both GCC, County Council,

and the districts, along with public representation as well, very much geared up to how do we

as an HR group best support our staff into that transition.

So we're looking very much at systems and processes and who's got the best

systems and how we might be able to roll those out.

But most importantly it's around how we communicate to the staff

about how we support them through those changes and transition.

So I'd say I do think the LGR has focused people's minds and we're working

closely. So I don't think, Councillor Coleman,

there's a risk that some of the services will be left behind

because we're all now working to the same end which is how do we provide

those opportunities. And that includes regular Portland blogs going out for me to say this

is how we're supporting you, these are the conversations that have taken place to date,

and that's something which you've got my assurance I'll continue to do. And as I've said to start,

we're always going to need frontline services doing all the great stuff you're doing. It's

for me and some of my director colleagues to think about the future a bit more because

you don't need seven or eight CEOs in one or two unit trips. You're always going to

There's a whole great range of skill sets that we've got in public around the councils.

So we're very much working to make sure that we do create a de -menus culture.

And I think just finally the idea of a one year review, lessons learned, is a great one.

And that will give us enough time to be able to pull that together as our one year report.

Thank you.

Thank you colleagues.

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 1:01:57

Right, we're stopping this in ten minutes.

I have still three more people who want to speak.

I believe David you have to go shortly do you?

No because if you need to pass on to Councillor Cunningham you can do so.

But I have three other people waiting.

Councillor Jenkins I know wants to do a very short follow up question.

Followed by Councillor Fowles and then Waring.

Councillor Cunningham is now on the list.

Councillor Jenkins thank you.

Thank you chair.

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 1:02:30

I note from the questions that have been asked, you recollect I brought up this notion some

time ago in the meeting, from questions that have been asked that there seems to be a need

on this committee to ask questions that have already been asked, to discuss things that

have already been discussed and to review things that have already been reviewed, perhaps

more than once. In other words, there seems to be a problem in which things get forgotten,

or we need to be reminded, or we need to check in again to see if they're still true. If

that's true, just on this committee that has gone into such detail, what I wonder is if

we need to create, and this is directed to Councillor Evony and to the leader, to the

chief executive, do we need to create some form of communication across the district

to the parishes and councils and to the public at large to remind them of what is happening and why we are doing it and how this fits into the future.

Because obviously it seems to be a complicated matter even at this level, it would be something that obviously at a high level it may be important to generate some communication.

That is my first key question about this.

I would like you to also note, Chair, that there were two members of the Scrutiny Committee

that were on the transition monitoring group that was set up.

I suspect that Councillor Wilkinson may not be in the same role.

I am not sure what his position on it is now that he is a cabinet member, but he is not

on this committee.

So we currently have no ONS members of that transition monitoring group and I

wonder if that's something that needs to be considered. Thank you.

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 1:04:24

Cabinet Member - 1:04:27

Responses, gentlemen. Yeah if I pick up the, I think it's a matter for the

committee to decide whether they want the monitoring group to continue and if

so they want to put new members on it. In terms of the communication I think

Councillor Jenks, the principle and the key part of communication is with the staff.

This is largely an internal change rather than, because we're not seeking to make this

change to affect change for our residents in the short term.

Yes, absolutely, we want to provide more efficient services.

I think it's something I will take back to the leader,

because he also has the portfolio for communications,

and raise it with him in terms of does he feel that we should

do more communications publicly.

I think we now have the resource to do that,

which we didn't have previously, because clearly in phase one it

was our communications staff that were going through

the change process.

We now have a new head of communications starting next month and therefore I think I will pick

it up with a leader in terms of does he feel that he would like essentially our communications

department to do more work on this beyond the work that I am sure they are being now

lined up to do and the officers might be able to tell us that in terms of how we communicate

internally with the staff.

Because there is a broader message, I think it fits within the more broader umbrella about how we as an administration are running the council.

And I'm conscious that we're about to go into a pre -election period in three weeks time, so we won't be able to do anything probably imminently.

But beyond that, once we're into May, then potentially I think certainly we could consider that.

I don't know if officers have got anything to add.

Officer - 1:06:24

Thank you. The only thing I would add again is one of the other work streams that's taking place is around communications.

So just in the interests of brevity it's incredibly important. I would agree that it's largely an internal change.

And I also would suggest that between our interim proposals that go in on 21st March, and that's not just ours,

the plan is that there will be a county -wide proposal or proposals or suggestions that go forward on 21st March,

and the 28th of November which is when a more detailed submission will be needed.

That's very much the period in which we'll need to work up what that communications programme looks like

and how we get engagement from different parties.

But to provide you with reassurance that those groups are set up

and I think they're only going to get more important as time gets nearer and nearer.

Thank you.

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 1:07:11

Councillor Cunningham.

Management summary if you could.

Councillor David Cunningham - 1:07:16

Yes, what is the fastest land mammal? No, that's not his question. His question was,

it is the cheetah actually, his question was, given that the new devolution plan is to push

councils together and to have different councils all in one block, doesn't a publicer sort

of model fit that better than a sovereign where each of the individual councils that

were are still running stuff when in actual fact they're all going to be sharing everything

going forward. So I'll be going to transition onto this sovereign model only to find ourselves

in three years time all your lovely hard work being used to push it all back into a shared

service across various different councils whatever they will be called at the time.

Cabinet Member - 1:08:11

My answer to that would be I think if Publica was largely services for Cotswolds, Shugesbury,

Cheltenham Borough Councils then I might agree with you but it isn't and you know

see that is one of the proposals likely to come forward as a unitary on that

basis but as we described in the other replies we talked about earlier one of

the councils is West Oxfordshire which is in any like very very unlikely to be

in the same unitary council as this district area.

And then we have Forest of Dean, which may be or may not be,

depending on whether a single unitary for Gloucestershire

comes about or there are two unitaries.

So I think that's where officers have been mindful

and they might want to add in terms of LGR

about how much change you put through.

And we talked about not wanting to change services twice

in very short time frames, particularly where they're

largely with West Oxfordshire and that therefore means that you know I think

when we have more clarity about that and when we have a view about whether

there's going to be a single unitary for Gloucestershire or two unitaries for

Gloucestershire and what the boundaries of those are going to be then clearly

there might be further discussions about you know do we make any further changes

we look at how how public areas is working and going forward but I think in

In terms of where we are now, no I don't think that's a key consideration because it isn't looking like we're going to...

The councils that we're going to join up with includes West Oxfordshire in any event and in Forest if it were then it would obviously be aligning with the whole county coming together.

I don't know if officers have anything to add.

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 1:09:52

Good, thank you very much. I appreciate... Oh, David Stanley, do come in.

David Stanley, Deputy CEO - 1:09:59

I was just going to make a comment on the need to manage our finances over the short

term in the run up to devolution. So doing nothing and saying, well, devolution will

sort that out, wasn't an option. So the budget and the MTFS that council approved only last

Monday shows a £1 .7 million gap in 26, 27, widening almost to £5 million in 27, 28.

So whilst it's difficult to see how you can reduce costs in the short term, by bringing

those services back we create more opportunities for us to have those difficult discussions

with members as officers about where we might make those changes.

I think whilst there is merit in reviewing, I suppose, the public model, when this started

back in 2023 and you have to remember this was also highlighted in the peer challenge review

that we needed to ensure we were getting value for money the driver for this

is to put the council in greater control of its financial future.

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 1:11:07

Thank you very much interesting and finally on this item then before we look at the recommendations

Councillor Waring. Thank you and I just want to make a very quick

Councillor Jon Wareing - 1:11:15

comment first before two

questions that I had already planned relating to communication.

I think residents and parish councillors will find it enormously helpful to understand the

impact of these changes on the planning functions because, let me tell you, the biggest cripes

I hear are how crap CDC's planning is.

And I'm now in a position to say that's actually because it was agency staff most of the time

and we will now have our own planning department

and that matters to people.

They're fantastic.

You know, that's encouraging.

So I really would encourage external communication about that.

Anyway, what I wanted to ask about was on page 43.

It refers to a culture development plan.

Just to check that I'm not falling into some kind of brain fate.

Have we seen this before?

Officer - 1:12:22

Councillor Jon Wareing - 1:12:27

Is the cost of this attached already baked into the second phase of the transition?

Officer - 1:12:38

Sorry chair, I'm too hasty to turn the microphone on and then start answering the questions

for you.

Yes, so firstly, yes you have seen this before, it's our CDC people and culture strategy that

we're developing and again one of the things which I'm more than happy to bring back to

this committee at some point is you'll recall we were talking about running a staff survey

to see how staff that have transitioned in phase one felt about the transition.

I'm pleased to inform that Andrew's covered the key bases off there.

There were some operational issues around business world but largely the transition

seemed very positively.

The other thing we've done is shared that and asked staff for their thoughts on how

the emerging vision and values for our CDC People Strategy is emerging and again they

were very complementary about having been involved in the focus groups.

I'm glad they were and I hope they would have been but they were very complementary about

the Emerging People Strategy.

So that's the reference on page 42 43

The other point and so that was a dedicated commission that was done through a normal procurement process where we worked

You probably recall with Innovation Central to help us work up that

People and culture strategy so that that cost has already been accounted for

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 1:13:52

Thank you very much, so if we go back to page 15 we have four recommendations ahead of this here

I don't believe any to their you have them there, and I believe it that we on screen

Then they're available to view on screen as well, so

We have four recommendations there, and I suggest we therefore summarize our views by

voting yay, or nay on that

Sorry, so sorry sorry we've sorry yes, we've noted the contents, and we are approving therefore the recommendations of their in

The recommendation that we've captured during this debate.

Andrew Brown, Officer - 1:14:39

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 1:14:41

If you could, that would be very helpful. Thank you, Mr Weaver.

Officer - 1:14:45

The first one was a recommendation to Cabinet to suggest that more detail be given to what phase 3 looks like, taken into account LGR.

The second recommendation, or in no particular order, was around a year one review.

I think the third question stroke comment was whether or not this committee wanted to

Do anything or put anybody else onto a working group regarding the public a transition those were the three key?

recommendations I captured

Councillor Lisa Spivey - 1:15:14

Sorry maybe angst his point about just the cabinet want to consider the wider communication to about the

transition to the more general public and our town of Irish councils

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 1:15:26

Councillor Cunningham. I would just say Mr. Chair, I quite like the

Councillor David Cunningham - 1:15:29

separation of church and state with ONS members being

Able to question it here rather than being on another group

I think that does give us a sort of sense of asking fresh questions rather than coming in with preconceptions

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 1:15:46

Councillor Genkis and without extending the debate too much further. I just have a comment on this particular one

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 1:15:50

My complaint about the current committee is that it doesn't have enough access to go and

have in -detailed conversations about what is really going on. And it is about actually

understanding the plans, understanding what is going on, understanding the structure of

it and being able therefore to have a supportive conversation rather than one in this kind

of formal context in which we take turns and we get a few minutes and we get criticised

if we ask a long question and so on.

So it's about the opportunity to work in a more informal way,

in depth, to understand things and make suggestions

that I think is really important what this committee could do

but hasn't so far really achieved.

Noted both observations there. Thank you.

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 1:16:38

And Mr Weaver has given us the three things we've just noted down.

So on that basis I suggest we're content with those.

Do we need a formal vote? I think we probably do.

Thank you very much.

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 1:17:08

Thank you colleagues. On to Item Agenda 11.

Service performance report 2024 -25 .3.

I don't believe we need to spend more than 30 minutes on this item

So I hope that you will agree in terms of your comments and feedback. We are well used to receiving these reports

Accountable officer again Robert Weaver chief exec and the report author Alison Borat senior performance analyst

Would you like to give us a summary Mr. Weaver?

Officer - 1:17:40

Thank you. I will give you a summary and thank you very much to Gemma and Alison as well as Stuart who do

the hard work behind the scenes in terms of pulling these reports together and are joining

us today should there be any technical or difficult questions that I may need their

support on. So as is usual at this point in time, quarter

three, so we're obviously reporting retrospectively, so we're looking back on that period and some

of the highlights for quarter three include employees in phase one of the transition as

we've just been discussing have successfully transferred to council employment and a more

detailed plan for phase two will be presented to you all in March as you know.

Council has partnered with Gloucestershire authorities to launch a retrofit support service

which went live on the 22nd of January.

This service offers energy efficiency plans, project specifications, advice on installers

and installation management and we're hoping that may well start incrementally with things

like advice around solar panels and PV but become the one -stop choice for all things

retrofit.

So that's incredibly important and going well.

Second round of the Unsung Heroes Award took place in November,

with the winners and runners up attending full council.

I think we'll all agree that's a great initiative.

I'm more than happy to continue to support that.

A third round is underway.

A key campaign, again you'll remember the Low Income Family Tracker,

or the LIFT software which we have now commissioned.

The first campaign running the online toolkit took place in December,

and focused on identifying benefits customers likely to qualify for pension

credit and consequently winter fuel allowance and again that's gone really

well and has worked as a pilot principle for how we continue to roll out those

campaigns using the lift software so watch the space for further updates. Some

of the highlights on service performance that were better than target included

customer satisfaction which remains incredibly high with the council,

percentage of planning applications determined within the agreed time

scales remains above target for all types of applications sitting between 90 and 100%.

Ninety -six percent of official land charge searches were completed within 10 days against

the target of 90%, and the number of gym memberships and visits to the leisure centre are above

target, with memberships exceeding the end -of -year target by around 6%.

So this is obviously a summary of highlights and lowlights of some of those service areas

where performance is not hitting the target include the number of affordable homes that

were delivered during Q3 and again the report specifies there delays encountered in terms

of some of those sites relating to weather conditions and project phasing have unfortunately

11 Service Performance Report 2024-25 Quarter Three

pushed the completion of some of those units into Q4 and early Q25 -26.

Of the original 13 affordable homes expected in Q3, the two at Evenlow Road, Morton and

Marsh are now projected for completion in Q4 and the remaining 11 at Down Ampey have

been rephased with six expected in quarter four.

The remaining five, along with further 11 originally

scheduled for quarter four, are now expected to be

delivered between April and December 25.

Consequently, the total number of affordable

homes projected for 24 -25 has been revised from 74 to 58.

I'll continue to watch that and monitor that closely

and report back to this committee,

because clearly affordable housing is one of our

key priority areas, and it certainly isn't for the

one I've tried, that unfortunately that target

has been addressed. Number of missed bins has exceeded target in Q3 despite a

notable reduction in comparison with quarter two and while flooding issues in

the district caused minor delays for crews earlier in the quarter November

marked a significant achievement with the lowest number of missed collections

since the reorganization of collection rounds. This highlights the success of

the improvement initiative introduced last quarter however December saw a

binned collections largely driven by the adjusted schedule during the Christmas

period so the key takeaway there is while we hope that we're out of the

woods when it comes to those miss spins due to that reorganization it's one that

me and the team will continue to monitor closely. Thank you chair happy to take

any questions or point any in the direction of my colleagues. Thank

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 1:21:46

you very much well of course

colleagues you have 73 pages information to go through and ask any question at

any particular line and I know that David Stanley would be able to answer all of

but the running order we have so far is Councillor Turner followed by

Councillors Coleman and Wilkins. So Councillor Turner. Thank you. Thank you to all the

Councillor Clare Turner - 1:22:06

officers that contribute to the performance report. I appreciate a huge

amount of useful data gets collated in that for us to scrutinise. The Waste

Collection Service has rightfully come under additional scrutiny in the past

year because of the reorganisation of rounds and a number of questions related to the impact

of that reorganisation on residents have been asked at full council.

So my question today doesn't really relate to the performance itself but to the information

we as councillors use to judge that performance.

It's apparent to me that while the missed bins per 100 ,000 is a useful indicator and

it does tell us something valuable about the performance and it's standardised across councils,

It doesn't really give us the full picture of what's going on. It doesn't capture the full extent to which things don't go quite right on the day

and while I understand that from an operational perspective the

There's a slight difference between

Mist bins or extra waste being presented which causes a problem and a last -minute reorganization because there's a

difference but from the residents point of view there's not and it's the same

the same effect you've put waste out and it wasn't collected so I don't think the

measure that we currently use fairly reflects the experience in our wards

sometimes and in addition to that given that the council will have to make

decisions about fleet like huge decisions that have financial

implications particularly in the context of the budget with which we're dealing

with at the moment, I think it would be valuable or potentially essential to understand the

extent of which collections are missed for a whole range of reasons, so an ability to

differentiate between mechanical failures of the vehicles and other issues.

This is absolutely not intended as a criticism of the service, I just would like to propose,

if my colleagues are in agreement, that we make a recommendation that cabinet review

the performance indicators used to measure that waste service, collection service with

a view to supplying ONS, additional data, probably data that's already collected and

measured by UBCO, but just something that gives us a slightly more accurate picture

of performance across the board.

Officer - 1:24:32

Thanks very much for the question. What I would suggest I'll do is it may be helpful

if my colleagues can briefly advise committee on the current dashboards and processes that

we do use in order to inform when bins are missed.

But I absolutely take the point, a misbin is a misbin.

And the rationale is useful for us

in terms of some of our intelligence and how we sort it out.

But to the customer, a misbin is a misbin.

So Gemma, Alison, do you wanna just cover off briefly

what we currently use in terms of dashboards

for the analysis?

Yeah, so the contract monitoring team have a dashboard

they look at every day in order to see the difference

between missed collections and service failures.

But I did get a bit of a heads up on your question.

So I've had a look to see if there's any,

there's different information in there.

And there is about events, so whether it's not presented,

whether it's contaminated, or whether it's overweight,

or they can access it for the road result.

Obviously I've just done a bit of down and dirty analysis

on it now, but I could actually look at it a bit further to find

out what's useful and what you'd actually want to see.

But yeah, so the information is there.

We just need to get it into a readable format.

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 1:25:40

Thank you. Further breakdown of the figures would be very helpful because it is a big issue with residents and having more information at our fingertips to justify and explain that would be very welcome. Thank you very much.

Councillor Coleman.

I just want to take the opportunity to second that proposal and to say

Councillor Patrick Coleman - 1:25:56

that we all appreciate

the way staff work on the bins, and I think many of us appreciate that they are a group

of staff who do not have proper pensions, and yet we have to recruit.

But the biggest problem is if we have to use agency staff or staff from other teams who

don't know the area, because local knowledge is absolutely critical.

Indeed, for assisted collections, fortunately I represent a very tolerant area, but to see

people who have an assisted collection because they are not due to disability able to move

their bin up the slope to the drive and week after week after week because of different

reasons perhaps, nobody comes and collects that bin.

When the regular team are on, it all happens.

Just a very small example, we talked about bins too much, I didn't mean to spend too

much time today but it certainly is not right yet and I hope and I have a lot of

faith actually finally because we did have an online presentation didn't we

recently which I think you and I were at. I still have a huge amount of faith in

the leadership of UBCOA will say that and I just hope they can find people to

do the job agency staff and not a lot of use if you bring something from

Tewkesbury or somewhere to try and find their way around the north the south or

Thank you very much.

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 1:27:17

Councillor Wilkins.

Thank you, Chair.

Just two minor points.

Councillor Len Wilkins - 1:27:22

The 100 ,000 figure, my colleague Councillor Nelia Brie says have you fixed the website

yet?

If you have five people in one street and they all log on, only one gets logged as a

miss bin.

I have to check that with the service.

Did you mean about the actual reporting the misses?

That's right, yes. They go on the website and say it's missed and then the next person

does it. We only pick up the first one.

I didn't know about that. I would have to check with the service and slash IT to find

out what's going on.

Take it back to the digital team and find out what's wrong. That's fine.

Ask. Not just a pretty face.

I think you've adjourned it Michael.

So I had a second point.

EVs. You're putting them in. I used to come along every meeting and have a go at the cabinet minister for Green Matters saying,

where are my EVs on Bolton on the water? And they're always in China on their way.

They'll be here soon. It was like dealing with Amazon.

If we could keep an eye on that one, please.

Thank you.

Noted. Thank you very much.

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 1:28:43

Councillor Cunningham.

Councillor David Cunningham - 1:28:49

Thank you, Mr Chair. I'm going to go back to bins from EVs, if you don't mind.

Just so Patrick's alright with it.

I completely agree with Councillor Turner and with Councillor Coleman.

This is the biggest bugbear.

In January I had five of eleven different parish councils that I look after complain about missed bin collections.

And the reason that I was given for the bins not being collected was that UBICO had contacted the cabinet member

who signed off with the suspension of collections for that particular cycle.

So all of the green bins were put out.

None of them were picked up because he signed off on it not going out.

Which led to 9 ,548 properties not having their green bins picked up over a two -day period.

Now, I'm not saying that he did it wrong.

I'm just saying that if we're going to have a system whereby it is possible for Ubico

to request a cessation of a service, especially a paid service, not statutory, one that people

pay for, that we have a really good reason for not doing it. If we're going to have that,

which means that sometimes people go a month without having a collection, that we, that

we, we've got a fantastic new communications team, I mean it's just the best. You know,

it's it's terrific it's the best it's the best we've ever had it's world

famous this this team that I'm afraid I was about to be to suggest that the

comment on this that tonight would be most welcomed so I would ask that the

missed bin collections get a higher level of scrutiny not just we know it's

a bit of a problem and we're working at it because I think we're still failing

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 1:30:45

at it personally. I think we've got some interesting points there starting

off with Councillor Turner and obviously commented upon by Councillors Cunningham

and Coleman. I think there's a very clear steering request for more info there.

Councillor Lisa Spivey - 1:31:03

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I'm going to move away from bins

because there's other things going on in the world. I would like to just raise

homelessness actually and the rise in the use of B &Bs and hostels.

And I know that certainly when I was the cabinet member for this very important portfolio,

we made a number of moves to invest into other forms of accommodation,

which culminated in us buying our own property and being in charge of that.

And I would just like to, you know, I appreciate that the team works really hard

and that nobody, you know, there are sometimes reasons where a B &B or a hostel is the only option for someone.

But I just wondered whether there was, and I do note the very good rate of averting homelessness,

and that prevention duty is taken very seriously, but clearly, you know, this is a number that we would like to drive down.

And I note that it was going down and now seems to have risen, so I wonder if there's a particular reason for that.

I would like to make a recommendation, possibly early, for the work plan that we look at this

again.

I think it is a really important issue.

The other area I would like to pick up on, which is probably like bins, is quite repetitive,

is around planning and the delivery of lots of things.

because it seems that the indicators almost on everything within planning is

on amber in terms of us getting on with the local plan, greening it to the core,

the Simon Sester master plans etc and they all seem to be off target and I

wondered whether there was a direct correlation with staffing on that or

where we're at because it seems that we've been greening our local plan to

the core since 2019 and it is now 2025. I note that in the comments it says that on

page 59, top one, there was going to be, sorry that wasn't there, it is about going back

to consultation on that in, sorry there is too many indicators, about going back to the

coming going out to consultation on with the public on that it was it thank you

thank you David yeah and is that what is happening thank you yeah thank you for

Officer - 1:33:42

the questions so again I'll just ask Alison and Gemma are you aware of any

particular reasons why through the collection of the report the

homelessness figures have gone up I'm not expecting to have an answer because

it may well be that we need to feed that back, but more than happy to look into that, unless

you happen to say, oh yeah, I know exactly why that is, three members of staff were off

for a period and we had a spike or whether there's anything else to it. No. Okay. That's

fine. We can feed that back. No problem at all. Yeah, so members will be aware that we're,

or have asked Planning Advisory Service to come and do a review. This will be the first

review that has been initiated council side. Previous PAS reviews, Planning Advisory Service

reviews have been done whilst planning teams have been managed by Publica. So again, as

part of the transition for exactly this reason, I'm really keen, as I'm sure members will

be, to identify what's working really well in planning, but where we need to make improvements

and how we can get an independent assessment on how we put those improvements in place.

That's something which I know is near and dear to all our hearts and there are a number

of indicators that are currently amber. Some of it is due to workloads, some of it is due

to the fact that we've been carrying some vacancies for a while that hopefully we're

now starting to come out of the woods for. But I wanted to just do a little bit of a

deeper dive and understand where there's some cultural issues and changes to systems and

mindsets and possibly the adoption of simpler processes in some cases that enable the planners

to focus on the value add rather than trying to do too much using some of the existing

systems. So hopefully the Planning Advisory Service Report will give us some steer and

some sense about where we can put some of those processes in place. They're on site,

I think it's from about the 23rd, 24th of March for two or three days. There will then

be a feedback session at the end of that period that all members are more than welcome to

attend. That will be in the Chamber, time to be confirmed, but if you'd like to come

back and hear directly from the PAS team about what their findings are, then I think that

would be helpful. Then I think what that might tie into, if I can, is to just pose the question

about whether we let that review take place before or otherwise in relation to the recommendation

if this committee is minded to review those performance metrics associated with planning

– sorry, they're associated with waste, so ignore what I'm just saying, got to get

Hopefully some of the planning amber status will be explored in more detail as part of

that review and I am hoping that some recruitment to some of those key posts such as planning

enforcement will give some stability to the service that we haven't had for a long while.

Councillor David Cunningham - 1:36:27

I think there is a difference between the metric which measures how many planning applications

get processed and these bigger projects.

I think that there's a difference.

One of the things is I think is actually going quite well.

We've got agency staff on now that are churning

through the old applications, the old stale ones,

and that's all very good.

This I think is much more about the longer -term planning,

and I think it's a very specific part

of the planning advisory service

that needs to be beefed up to get this stuff moving.

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 1:37:03

Officer - 1:37:05

So just very quickly on that, the review is designed to be as broad and inclusive as it

needs to be and it will pick up on some of those projects as well and what may be hindering

their development. So it's not purely looking at applications and the best way to process

those.

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 1:37:20

Thank you. We have four remaining speakers and I have now closed the list of people to

speak. So we're going to end with Councillors Jenkinson, Coleman, Turner and Neill.

Councillor Jenkins.

Thank you, chair.

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 1:37:32

My first point concerns accessibility.

I don't believe this report is acceptable on an accessibility basis.

This typeface is so tiny, if somebody has difficulty, they can't read it.

That includes me, by the way, and this is supposed to be public document that others

can read.

It's way too small.

And this is printed in a light grey, it's again impossible to read.

So this is an unacceptable document in terms of meeting.

It makes it impossible for me to actually use this content.

And if it's impossible for me, then it will be impossible for at least some others to be able to do that.

That's the first point I'd like to ask officers to note.

The second point I'd like to bring up is after the last meeting, you, Chair and I met with a group in follow -up to talk about how this information would be shared and communicated,

and also the more fundamental aspect of the skills that are needed inside the Council in order to be able to understand performance more effectively and lead to change.

There was a very positive outcome in that meeting.

People were responsive to it within it.

And I'm expecting some kind of outcome from that.

And I'm wondering if there is any process follow -up to that and any outcomes to that,

because that would reflect back to how these reports get made, but more fundamentally to

how we actually manage quality and improvement.

So I'd like to just have that point noted and that we get a response in due course.

There is one now that is very good.

The last point I would like to make is two aspects.

There is the green strategy 2020 that comes up to 2025.

It is noted that it is being refreshed and there is reference to the county strategy

as approved by the economic growth scrutiny committee and other factors in doing that.

There's also discussion about agri tech as part of the economic growth area.

Now in the in the county strategy it specifically defines

economic development to be focused on agri tech and agri technique.

Agri technique is about how farms manage their farms and operate. Now that is really important to the economy

Not just of the farms because it makes a big difference, but to local local neighborhoods.

I take in point, give a case in point, visiting a village in this Cotswold district where

the village is being flooded on a regular basis and a big part of the problem can be

put down to a neighbouring farm's management of its land or non -management of the land

or perhaps destruction of its land, which brings about this problem.

So what I'd like to ask is, in the strategy that's being discussed here and how it would

be focused. There's no mention of our attention to that aspect of the rural economy, the farms

themselves, how they operate and how we can leverage and help them in that process. And

I'd like to ask the leader and the teams to give more consideration to that aspect, which

is a huge part of our economy and amounts to more than 20 % of the climate problem. It

affects ecology, it affects climate and it affects economy. And so it's a big area that

we should be focusing on. We recently briefed on that point. Thank you.

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 1:41:00

Any further observations on that or just noted? Thank you, Councillor Jenkinson. Thank you very much.

Councillor Coleman.

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 1:41:07

Thank you, Chair. One small point, but it's got a big impact and it has had a big impact for the expenditure of very small amounts of money.

So we're on page 57, the business of the replacing Warner Damaged Street nameplates.

This has been done in marginal time in short, involving staff I think from West Oxbridge's

Yubico depot and it's arguably extremely good value for money.

The issue I think that needs to be adjusted here in the future is it's not a single task

and finish job that's taken four years, although we have cleared a backlog.

As time goes on, other signs become worn out and need replacing.

So a bright person needs to be given a small project, I suggest to the Chief Executive,

to work out how to continue on a more efficient basis, because we used to have to wait nearly

12 months for the work to be done.

And of course the staff from West Oxford didn't always know their way

Councillor Patrick Coleman - 1:42:04

around our streets.

There were little problems here and there, but it was done cheap, and that's the main

thing, and we cleared the backlog.

Can we have a more, what's the word, sustainable project for the future?

Not a huge thing that makes a big impact.

The second is back to the yellow boxes in a row and the planning.

Slightly different perspective.

We have the Sun ancestor town centre master plan.

There was a consultation on it.

I don't recall there was a huge amount of detail in it, but it was completed 47 weeks

ago and I have a concern that when the next stage is reached in March possibly or is it

in early 2025, possibly before June 30th.

It will come as a big surprise.

So could I suggest there, off the top of my head, that prior to publication, an offer

is made of a confidential briefing for members, so at least those of us in the Syrinsester

area aren't completely blown off course by the psyche of this Council, perfectly reasonably

trying to maximise the value of its substantial investments in Syrinsester's town centre.

and that's probably enough thank you.

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 1:43:14

If I may just briefly add to the point on nameplate.

So there was some discussion I believe some time ago about residents being able to buy them and they were going to be sold off.

I'm one of the people that is waiting to buy my old roadside nameplate and it's a little bit of extra revenue.

In fact I would pay more than the cost of the replacement road sign for my old one.

So actually you could argue that it is self -sustaining were we to get to that stage.

Do you need to come back Councillor Colle?

Councillor Patrick Coleman - 1:43:43

Yes, just to suggest that by the time it is a relief or replacement it will be eligible.

Thank you.

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 1:43:48

Councillor Turner.

Councillor Clare Turner - 1:43:53

Thank you. I just wanted to revisit planning very briefly and enforcement.

So on page 111 of our payfares, the number of open enforcement cases at the end of the last quarter was listed as 551.

We are all in agreement that we are horrified by that number and would like to see it go

down further.

I am pleased to see that the staffing has gone up and the report makes reference to

that.

My question is, is there anything else we can do in terms of smarter ways of working

to make sure that the expertise needed for the enforcement part of it is not being used

for the planning of schedules and arranging site visits and that kind of stuff?

So that's the first part of the question.

And then slightly tongue in cheek,

is the absence of a target associated with this KPI

contributing to work not getting prioritized?

Who could pick that up?

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 1:44:48

Yeah, I'm more than happy to answer that

and then bring in colleagues if necessary.

Officer - 1:44:51

So, yeah, firstly, I hope the planning advisory service report

will address some of the concerns

around how planning enforcement is operating.

and that should hopefully flush out whether we've got officers who aren't doing some of

the value -add work that could be done in a different way.

I'm really very keen that we do explore different ways of working and if that utilises better

forms and systems and AI around doing some analysis around some of those really complex

planning enforcement cases and we work out how best to deal with some of the more straightforward

cases then that's an area where we may be able to say to a limited number of planning

enforcement officers, this is how you can focus and get best effect.

So the Planning Advisory Service report will definitely give some indications around how

we could do some of that better.

I'm not sure whether the absence of a target is impacting, but it's something I'm happy

to reference when I speak to PAS to say, can you explore this and do they think that that

may be contributing to the process.

I think fundamentally it's, and I know I sound like a crack record, a lack of resource at

the moment which isn't helping.

So we cracked, cracked for the purposes of the conversation, purposes of the tape, cracked.

And I think with the absence of a senior planning enforcement officer, that has definitely had

an impact on how we can deal with some of those planning enforcement cases.

I mean it's interesting as well, just as a slight aside, you may have seen that the police

are under incredible pressure to reduce their budgets and we've probably all seen that a

number of PCSOs are going to be losing their jobs.

So I had a meeting with Ruth Greenwood, who's the CEO of the Police and Crime Commissioner's

Office, and we're saying, well, let's have a conversation, because if you're losing PCSOs

and we need planning enforcement, is there not some sort of arrangement or working approach

that we could explore whereby we may be able to help them with some of their redeployment

opportunities whilst getting some eyes and ears on the ground?

So it's that kind of approach that might help us do some of that initial sifting

but we're always going to need senior planning enforcement officers

that can do that difficult sift and unfortunately we've not had the luxury of

of those and the stability that would bring. So I'm happy to take that away and

make sure the PAS review includes that. Okay.

Thanks very much Mr Weaver.

...is right now I can completely come in.

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 1:47:15

Last item on last contributor on this one is Councillor Neill.

Councillor Dilys Neill - 1:47:26

Yes, sorry, I just wanted to ask about the local plan update.

Didn't we have a deadline that it had to be submitted by?

And I thought it was sort of June or something like that this year.

Is that right?

Has the deadline changed or are we on target to meet it?

Officer - 1:47:44

The best thing to do is let me get an update from Adrian and Matt

rather than guessing at some of those key deadlines.

Let me get that update for you.

Councillor Dilys Neill - 1:47:51

And then I may be a bear of little brain, but I didn't quite understand the graphs on

pages 106 to 108.

It's the dotted line that bothers me, applications without AEOT, does that mean that they've

not been, is that the percentage that don't have an extension of time or is that the percentage

that aren't decided in a timely manner,

because it's well below the target.

So those are the ones that are decided within either

the 13 weeks or the eight weeks,

so they don't need an agreed extension of time.

So those that are, when an application comes in,

whether they've been determined within 13 weeks or eight weeks,

so 13 weeks if they're a major application,

eight weeks if they're a minor or another.

Officer - 1:48:44

Councillor Dilys Neill - 1:48:44

So what does the dotted line show on the ground here?

That's what the dotted line shows and then the solid line shows

Officer - 1:48:50

whether they've got an agree whether they've been and determined within either

with an agreed extension of time

Councillor Dilys Neill - 1:48:59

Then just a comment and we still got a huge number of empty properties

I think 829 which is about it's a 2 % cop find that page

But I'm pleased to notice that we're discussing it in October, but it's a shame. It doesn't sooner. Thanks

Thank you very much colleagues.

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 1:49:16

Well, that was a very useful update on progress of council priority and service performance.

So thank you all.

Thanks to the questions and thanks to those who produced the reports in the first place.

Very helpful.

Thank you very much.

Do we need to vote on that?

I don't think we need to vote on that, do we?

But we have a couple of observations that you have captured.

I have.

Officer - 1:49:34

It's as if we had some earlier.

So the recommendation was that cabinet review performance indicators associated with waste.

That was the key recommendation and the second recommendation was that the work plan looks

at homelessness again and does a deeper dive into that.

The associated items is that we will feed back to this committee and Councillor Jenkinson

on, I think in the first instance, some clarity about what is being done around agri -tech

and agriculture and that I think will then allow you to decide whether or not you think

that's enough or whether we need to review it.

I will take that away as an action to note and I will also take away the action to note

around local plan deadlines and timescales and feed that back.

I think the only key recommendation you had, Chair, was the Cabinet review of performance

indicators associated with waste.

There were other points which we said we didn't need to vote on but

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 1:50:26

they were being noted

but you haven't mentioned them.

Do you need them reminded?

The ones you haven't mentioned?

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 1:50:39

Thank you. Your admin load has increased massively during this meeting I'm afraid.

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 1:50:48

Thank you colleagues. Right that deals with that item we now have and we're moving to the end.

We have Agenda Item 12 is Updates from Gloucestershire County Council Scrutiny

12 Updates from Gloucestershire County Council Scrutiny Committees

Committees from the Gloucestershire Economic Growth Scrutiny Committee,

Councillor Angus Jenkinson and the Health Over the Unsuscrutiny Committee from

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 1:51:25

Councillor de

In the first instance, it was submitted as feedback.

I was invited to give feedback, so it's not

a conventional report.

They asked for feedback from the members of the committee.

And when I'd written this feedback, which is, I think,

five or six pages, I thought it might be interesting to members

here to see what I'd said.

You can always disagree with me.

But those were the points that I made,

and I thought you ought to know, especially

as it references the fact that some things were discussed.

That was only sent off at the back end of last week.

I sent it to the current chair of the committee, who is not chairing the committee.

She then passed it on and long and short of it, it didn't become available to you, I think,

until today.

So if you haven't read it, that's an explanation of why it's come at this last moment.

There's a lot of content in it of sorts rather than me I could walk through it

all with you but I wasn't planning to.

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 1:52:40

Thank you and I recommend to colleagues that it is an interesting report and you

you can very clearly see Councillor Jenkins views on it so far so thank you

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 1:52:53

very much for that. Councillor Neill anything you want to add to your report

Councillor Dilys Neill - 1:52:59

on HOSC? No, our next meeting is in next week so I'll have something more to add.

I think probably the most interesting thing was something that came out

outside the HOSC which was a briefing on the National Review looking

forwards for the next ten years was the National Health Service.

Unfortunately the meeting was on my birthday and I wasn't able to attend

because my daughter has arranged a manicure for me.

So there we go.

So I was hoping I've got the slides through from it,

but I didn't actually get a room.

Oh, sorry.

I've now removed the nail varnish.

You can't see the wonderful green nail varnish I had.

I'll try and attend with that next time.

But there is an ongoing engagement with staff

and citizens to explore the views on the future of the NHS.

So it's interesting to me as being, having been a GP in the past, sort of maybe 20 years

ago, there was a movement to take away the out of hours commitment that GPs used to have,

which in some ways was good because I'd done it myself and it was extremely onerous, but

in some ways it took care out of the community and made people much more likely, I should

think, to call the ambulance or to call paramedics or to look

elsewhere for advice and not go to primary care.

And so now, essentially, I think it's fantastic that there's

going to be this big review of the NHS over a broader span than

just the one government.

So to have a sort of long -term review is excellent.

And it seems that the care is now going to be focused back on

doing as much as possible within the local community,

which is clearly much better for patients and I'll just watch this space.

I will let you know if there are any forums coming up where you

could participate and I'll try to publicise those as much as possible.

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 1:55:00

Thank you very much. Yes you can ask questions and Councillor Cunningham is

Councillor David Cunningham - 1:55:08

about to ask one. Thank you Mr Chair. Can I ask point number four, hand over

Times, which is the thing which seems to make the headlines the most, I think.

A timely handover initiative has been introduced.

Could you give any more detail on that, please?

Councillor Dilys Neill - 1:55:26

They just reported that they were working on a timely handover procedure, so I gather

that's a discussion between the Ambulance Service and the ANE Department.

I can find out more about it, though, if you like.

I would appreciate that.

Thank you.

Councillor David Cunningham - 1:55:41

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 1:55:41

At the next meeting perhaps you could just update us on that, that would be very

stealthful. Councillor Fowl's a question?

Councillor David Fowles - 1:55:51

Well I had two questions, one of which Councillor Cunningham's already

asked. I was going to ask the term resource hours and 2655, across

how many A &E's are we talking about? I think that's across the whole of the

region because it was the whole of the south west. But nonetheless it's a lot of hours. It means

that's the time that the ambulance and with the paramedic crew can't be on the

road. Yeah. And as far as some... That's about, I mean the the target is that they

only wait 15 minutes outside A &E so that's you know above the time that's

lost above that 15 minute wait. I mean I had a reason to take a friend to

to Sirencester which was a really quick response and another friend to Gloucester on two occasions

and the ambulances were queuing down the road and there were a hundred people in the Hiney

waiting and he had a nosebleed that one of these ones that needed to be quarter ice and

we didn't get seen for four hours it was crazy.

The 36 % of ambulance call outs is that because people are being, how shall I put it, they're

being dealt with by the ambulance crews and don't need to go to hospital.

Absolutely. Or is it because they didn't need an ambulance in the first place?

Do you have a view on the 111 service if you've experienced being on the phone

when you decide whether you need to do 999 or 111? It's quite an experience, it

Councillor Dilys Neill - 1:57:22

really is. Yes, well I could talk to you offline, shall I, privately about my

experience of being a GP and how the service used to work and how it works now, it's difficult

for people to know. People are at home and they don't know whether this is a life -threatening

emergency or whether they could wait until the morning and see somebody, whether they

should call 111 or whether they should call 999. The way different people respond to a

critical situation of illness or accident is very different.

Does the ambulance include paramedics?

Yes, the ambulance, because a lot of the paramedics are very well trained and a lot of them can

deal with situations in the home and reassure people that they don't need taking to hospital.

I had an occasion recently when my son was suddenly acutely ill where I called a paramedic team.

They did an ECG which is what he needed and were able to reassure us that he didn't need to go to

hospital. So but I couldn't have done that without that intervention. The paramedics were able to do

it and so that's why only 36 % of them. It's a good thing. It's a good thing yes it's a good thing.

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 1:58:32

Thank you. Last contributor then, Councillor Coleman. I had a very similar experience to

Councillor Patrick Coleman - 1:58:37

Councillor Fowls. I was assisting a neighbour to the Desire Ancestor Hospital. They can't do

chest x -rays there and it was late in the evening we had to go to Gloucester Hospital. We were very

there wasn't as big a queue as usual of ambulances and

The guy's still alive anyway, he's back home. However

I'm sure that there was a very strong argument made

unsuccessfully to keep open a any in Cheltenham and

Surely the evidence is that the change to one a any effectively for the whole county has been a failure

But if you personally disagree I'm going to review that.

Councillor Dilys Neill - 1:59:17

A decision had to be made about where there would be one trauma unit, one major trauma unit for the County of Gloucestershire.

Gloucester is the obvious place to do it, it's nearer the motorway.

There's all sorts of things going on, discussions about,

how two big hospitals only eight miles apart

should be managed and they're managed,

it's trying to manage them as one unit.

It's very, very complicated.

So Gloucester is the designated major trauma unit.

Also, the entire pediatric department is in Gloucester now.

So if you've got a child who's acutely ill,

they need to go to Gloucester.

So there's all sorts of things like that as well.

But I can raise that again at the HOSC.

We review things like that all the time.

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 2:00:10

Councillor Yew is only here to give us the update on HOSC.

And I think we've already made a couple of very useful comments

that she can feed back to us.

And if you'll allow me to move on, I will so do now.

Thank you.

And lastly, and we will be brief here,

13 Work Plan and Forward Plan

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 2:00:27

The work plan and forward plan, the reason we'll be brief is I'll split into two.

We are noting and reviewing the work plan.

Are there any observations that is currently in there about the work plan that you want

to bring to our attention?

There is not a great deal in the next couple of months anyway.

Excellent.

Councillor Spivey?

Councillor Lisa Spivey - 2:00:50

Perhaps we could look at that homelessness and hostile use if that is convenient for

housing team. It might be added to our plan.

I think that's a perfectly sensible recommendation to note down.

I'm hesitating because in terms of selecting cabinet decisions for pre -decision scrutiny,

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 2:01:11

as I said, there's nothing much schedule in here until I think we get to May,

and bearing in mind the Chair isn't here, I don't want to steal her thunder

and pick out certain things that I might personally want to do,

because that's not quite the spirit of how this committee is run. So if it's if

you're content to leave this item here unless there's anything specifically you

want to bring out I will not make any amendments I know council Bloomfield

will be watching this recording and I'll extend the invitation to her remotely to

suggest if there is anything that she would have wanted to bring to the show

in terms of scrutiny then she can make that point when she gets back via email

to me and we'll talk to the committee in that way.

Lastly, Councillor Cunningham.

Councillor David Cunningham - 2:01:56

I think at the last meeting we agreed with the changing landscape of the things that

are going on and the different things that might have to be discussed by cabinet, which

might come in at the last minute.

We didn't want to overload the work stream forward because we might have to be a little

bit more flexible about things coming in at the last minute.

I think that was right.

It was right.

Thank you very much.

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 2:02:17

Yes, we specifically noted that we don't know what is coming down and the things that are coming on the horizon.

We may well want to give this committee appropriate time without overloading it and squeezing in a 10 minute conversation.

And what we need is an hour and a half on it. So thank you for reminding me.

Councillor Gary Selwyn - 2:02:43

Thank you.

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Overview and Scrutiny Committee - Monday 3 March 2025, 4:00pm - Cotswold District Council Webcasting