Overview and Scrutiny Committee - Monday 12 October 2026, 4:00pm

Overview and Scrutiny Committee
Monday, 12th October 2026 at 4:00pm

Speaking:

Start of webcast

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Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Gina Blomefield

1 Apologies

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Julia Gibson, Officer
Councillor Gina Blomefield

2 Substitute Members

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3 Declarations of Interest

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4 Minutes

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Minutes , 07/09/2026 Overview and Scrutiny Committee

Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor David Cunningham
Councillor Gina Blomefield

5 Matters Arising from Minutes of the Previous Meeting

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Councillor David Cunningham
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Angus Jenkinson
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor David Cunningham
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Tony Slater
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Simon Harper, Officer
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Mike Evemy
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Angus Jenkinson
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Simon Harper, Officer

6 Chair's Announcements

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Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor David Cunningham
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor David Cunningham
Simon Harper, Officer
Councillor Gina Blomefield
David Stanley, Deputy CEO
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Angus Jenkinson
Councillor Jon Wareing
Councillor David Cunningham
Councillor Michael Vann
Councillor Tony Slater
Councillor Nikki Ind
Councillor Claire Bloomer
Julia Gibson, Officer
Simon Harper, Officer
Councillor Gina Blomefield

7 Public Questions

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8 Member Questions

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9 Report back on recommendations

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CDC - Overview and Scrutiny recommendations and comments for Cabinet 9 September 2026 Final

10 UBICO Update

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Guest
Guest
Guest
Guest
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor David Cunningham
Guest
Guest
Guest
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Jon Wareing
Guest
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Tony Slater
Guest
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor David Cunningham
Guest
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Nikki Ind
Guest
Guest
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Claire Bloomer
Councillor Claire Bloomer
Guest
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Angus Jenkinson
Guest
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Guest
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Mike Evemy
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Guest
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Guest
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Gina Blomefield

11 2027/28 Budget Strategy and Medium Term Financial Strategy (MTFS) Update

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Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Patrick Coleman
Councillor Gina Blomefield
David Stanley, Deputy CEO
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor David Cunningham
David Stanley, Deputy CEO
Councillor David Cunningham
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Jon Wareing
Councillor Patrick Coleman
Councillor Gina Blomefield
David Stanley, Deputy CEO
Councillor Jon Wareing
Councillor Nikki Ind
David Stanley, Deputy CEO
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Angus Jenkinson
Councillor Patrick Coleman
David Stanley, Deputy CEO
Councillor Patrick Coleman
Councillor Angus Jenkinson
David Stanley, Deputy CEO
Councillor Angus Jenkinson
David Stanley, Deputy CEO
Councillor Mike Evemy
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Mike Evemy
Councillor Patrick Coleman
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Claire Bloomer
Councillor Patrick Coleman
Councillor Gina Blomefield
David Stanley, Deputy CEO
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor David Cunningham
David Stanley, Deputy CEO
Councillor Gina Blomefield
David Stanley, Deputy CEO
Councillor Gina Blomefield
David Stanley, Deputy CEO
Councillor Gina Blomefield
David Stanley, Deputy CEO
Councillor Patrick Coleman
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Angus Jenkinson
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Patrick Coleman
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Mike Evemy
Councillor Angus Jenkinson
Councillor Mike Evemy
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Patrick Coleman
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Claire Bloomer
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Simon Harper, Officer
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Angus Jenkinson
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Nikki Ind
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Jon Wareing
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Gina Blomefield

12 Artificial Intelligence Update

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Officer
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Jon Wareing
Officer
Councillor Jon Wareing
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Tony Slater
Officer
Councillor Tony Slater
Officer
David Stanley, Deputy CEO
Councillor Gina Blomefield
David Stanley, Deputy CEO
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor David Cunningham
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Michael Vann
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Angus Jenkinson
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Mike Evemy
Officer
Councillor Mike Evemy
Councillor Angus Jenkinson
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Nikki Ind
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Officer
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Officer
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Tony Slater
Officer
Councillor Gina Blomefield
David Stanley, Deputy CEO
Councillor David Cunningham
David Stanley, Deputy CEO
Councillor David Cunningham
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Angus Jenkinson
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Simon Harper, Officer
Councillor Gina Blomefield

13 Updates from Gloucestershire County Council Scrutiny Committees

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Report for CDC - Gloucestshire Economic scrutiny

Councillor Angus Jenkinson
Councillor Jon Wareing
Councillor Angus Jenkinson
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Angus Jenkinson
Councillor Gina Blomefield

14 Work Plan and Forward Plan

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Councillor Claire Bloomer
Councillor Gina Blomefield
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Disclaimer: This transcript was automatically generated, so it may contain errors. Please view the webcast to confirm whether the content is accurate.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:00:00

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:00:01

All right.

Good afternoon, everyone.

A warm welcome to everyone present, including any members

of the public, whether in person

or those who might be watching online.

I've just done the housekeeping before we went online,

so I won't repeat that.

If anybody wishes to fill in the proceedings, this is permitted,

provided it does not disrupt proceedings.

I always want to acknowledge and welcome the cabinet members

and officers who will be engaged in responding to this to the various

reports on and also to the members of this committee and also officers present

who support the overview and scrutiny committee in its functions. And now we

Julia Gibson, Officer - 0:00:46

have the first item on the agenda which is apologies. Do we have any apologies?

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:00:50

Yes we have apologies from Councillor Naomi Bloomer. Thank you and are there

any substitute members? I don't believe there are. No substitute members. Right.

It is wonderful if people can get substitutes for this meeting, but I know it's not always

easy. Declarations of interest. Does anybody have any declarations of interest? No. Good.

We go on to the minutes. I'm sure everybody has read through those. Does anybody have

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:01:29

Councillor David Cunningham - 0:01:30

any comments or alterations they would think should be made? Yes, cards are coming up.

Manjai, is this time to ask a question about one of the replies you've got

regarding the enforcement, or should I do that after?

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:01:40

You're going to say it would come up in matters arising. I think that'd be good.

Thank you. So any corrections or alterations you feel anybody... and

Obviously, we didn't have many people at the last meeting in September.

So, and only those people who are present evidently can vote.

So, those people, of the people who were there can have a proposer and seconder for those minutes.

Quality was high.

Yeah.

I hope everybody heard that.

The quality at the last meeting, it might have been small, but it was a very high quality meeting.

Yes, so now could we all vote for those people who are present

to pass those minutes?

Thank you.

That's passed unanimously.

All right.

Oopsie.

Now we've got the matters arising

from the previous meeting.

We have extensive notes on the matters arising,

which are very helpful.

I had a question was, would it be possible

to also have a breakdown

of the numbers regarding the five reasons for penalty charges.

This is for parking, for why they got penalty charges.

It would be useful and helpful

to actually understand what they were given for.

That was my comment on that.

And I also wanted to thank very much Jerry LeCun for her detailed

answers to the O &S queries from the previous meeting.

This is a meeting in July.

And also pleased to see a report

an enforcement action plan will come before O &S on the 11th of January and

that will have the backlog appearance project now I understand David Councillor

Cunningham and maybe also Councillor Jackson have got on and Councillor

Councillor David Cunningham - 0:03:36

Slater have got points on those matters arising Councillor Cunningham first

Thank You Madam Chair I just wanted to cheque 2014 we have two cases open from

2014? Is that a typo? I mean someone's lost a lever arch file or what's happened there?

I don't know, I really don't know. But I mean Nick Clope was still sleeping on a camp bed

in Downing Street in 2014. Surely we've got some sort of resolution about that. I mean

I wouldn't hope. Can we just get asked some clarity on that please?

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:04:07

Okay, I'm sure that will be acknowledged.

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 0:04:13

Councillor Jenkinson.

I have two cases, large cases open from 2014.

That's when the 2014 is the date when the original, I believe, the date when the original

approval was given to the development as opposed to the date when the complaint was made.

But I might be wrong.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:04:38

Councillor David Cunningham - 0:04:41

And can we get that's a good point because if this is a

application that was put in in 2014

But then a breach was noted in 2020 the case is from 2020 not from 2014 surely

Can we just get clarity on that? Thank you

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:04:57

Councillor Tony Slater - 0:05:01

Thank you and Councillor Slater you had a point

Yes, on page 33 item 4, the local government reorganisation.

There were a couple of meetings scheduled for 18th and 24th of September.

I just wondered at what stage we will see the outcome of those.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:05:17

Which ones?

I'm also slightly, because obviously local government reorganisation was paused, which

actually meant that our minutes probably didn't relate to them before the pause was enacted.

So that's perhaps a change. I don't know whether Mike Evermy might know.

Simon Harper, Officer - 0:05:44

This was the meeting with government officials wasn't it? That did happen. So they provided an update to

chief executives but I think there was there was nothing new in that. It was

basically they came and they listened to what the chief executives had to say I

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:06:05

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:06:12

gather um and I do think oh the councillor of me once once he's got the

techie bit over

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:06:34

I'm sorry, we're having a bit of a technical issue with our speakers.

So I think we'll try and get Mike, Evamy.

There we are.

Thank you very much.

Councillor Mike Evemy - 0:06:48

Yeah, so just hopefully useful for the committee.

yeah, there was an officer meeting, I think as I referred to, at the full council

I think the following day and then we as sort of leaders and chief execs met

after that but as the chair said there was no new information other than the

announcement we are expecting I think at council I think I said I thought it

might be today but it is this week we are been confirmed we it will be this

week and we are expecting it on Thursday the announcement from the government.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:07:27

Councillor Jenkins, do you want to add something?

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 0:07:30

We're still on the matter of the compliance.

We made a request, I believe, as a recommendation that we should get more updates from the compliance

team about the situation.

The report that came through is a 2025 report, I believe,

and it relates back to the past.

So it's just for information, if you like.

And it doesn't actually address that issue, and I didn't notice

that there was an address, but I assume it will come

when we discuss it next time.

But at least it's an outstanding issue that we get a more

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:08:19

up -to -date position as it is today.

Well, yes, thank you, sir.

I know, Simon, you were following up on that.

Have you got anything that you need to add

Simon Harper, Officer - 0:08:26

on that report saying 2035?

It is 2025, yeah, that is correct.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:08:36

All right, now we go on to the next item,

which is the chair's, my announcements.

Claire Turner, the Green Councillor for Blockley,

stood down and as you will all be aware in the sub -present by election Tom Bradley was

one that for the Conservative and this has changed the political balance of all

the committees at Cotswold District Council. So we now have and let's welcome

Nicky Ind onto the committee. She has been dragged off planning where she was

fully embedded and is now going to be a very good member of Ovi and Scrutiny.

So, welcome and thank you.

I hope you enjoy it.

And I also wanted to make you all aware that despite the

current pause, which we've just been touching on in LGR throughout

the country, Gloucestershire has decided to continue with the

background work on it and the LGR scrutiny panel, which I will

be chairing at the next meeting on the 12th of November in

Stroud's Council offices.

And I will reiterate Councillor Ebenle's thing.

There should be an announcement this week

on the government's final, further decisions on how

to proceed with LGR.

And I personally say, hopefully,

bearing in mind Gloucester's united decision to proceed

to a single unitary, our pause may be ended,

leaving the reorganisation able to continue.

And then just personal news, not that exciting really,

but I've got to go and have a HIP operation on the day

of our next O and S meeting, which is the 16th of November.

And I'm hoping that Councillor Jenkinson will be around to chair

that meeting, and Councillor Slater will be the vice chair.

So, I mean, anything else in and around the meeting,

I just physically, I'm not quite sure what the time

of the operation is, but it's certainly that day.

So now we go on to public questions.

I don't think we have any members of the public here.

so we have this. And likewise I don't think, in fact you don't know member

Councillor David Cunningham - 0:10:51

questions, no? No, okay. Thank you Madam Chair. This is a question relating to a

question that I asked in council regarding a breakdown of detail of the

hundred and ninety nine thousand spent on LGR which I was told would be coming

through in some numbers I assumed it would be in this is that something that

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:11:17

I can get a break down doesn't need to be now but at some point thank you

Councillor David Cunningham - 0:11:19

the only reason I ask is because I thought it would be included in the back

Simon Harper, Officer - 0:11:26

papers of this on an expenditure part but I can't see it that's all thank you

I think they're going to be circulated separately can be available to all

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:11:39

members. That's right. I don't know if David. Thank you. Just in terms of that

hundred ninety nine thousand that was our contribution to the wider LDR

David Stanley, Deputy CEO - 0:11:46

transition budget. Gloucestershire County Council is the accountable body will be

reporting that spend across all of the seven councils in Gloucestershire and I

would expect that to be circulated to all members of all councils so that

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:12:05

there's that transparency. Thank you. I suddenly realised I forgot to ask

everybody present to introduce themselves. So if we start with Councillor

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 0:12:13

Jenkinson and go around in a clockwise direction please. Hello I'm Angus

Councillor Jon Wareing - 0:12:23

Jenkinson and I'm representing Morton in Marsh and Todman. John Waring representing

Councillor David Cunningham - 0:12:28

Borton village ward David Cunningham representing Fostridge and the Chicken

Councillor Michael Vann - 0:12:33

Councillor Tony Slater - 0:12:38

Run Michael van Fairford North Tony Slater Grumbold's Asheville evening

Councillor Nikki Ind - 0:12:42

Councillor Claire Bloomer - 0:12:45

Julia Gibson, Officer - 0:12:51

Nikki and Tepry Eastern Wall Claire Bloomer new Mills Ward and Judy

Simon Harper, Officer - 0:12:56

Gibson Democratic Services Officer. Simon Harper, Head of Democratic and

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:13:01

Electoral Services. And I'm Gina Bloomfield, Chair of this O &S Committee

but also Councillor for Camden and Vale Ward in the north of the District. So

thank you for all of that. I'm now going to go on to the report back on the

recommendations. These are the recommendations that we made to Cabinet and I think

it's always good. It's become much clearer the response from the Cabinet

and we get, you know, we can see the feedback.

And the recommendation is particularly

around improving times for the land charges, increased staff

for processing sill bidding applications, and I'm touching

on Councillor Cunningham's thing, the costs incurred

by the pours in local government arroyo organisation.

So it was helpful having that, and it does tie in.

All the committees and things are tying in much more

that what one does we can see having an impact somewhere else

and then having the feedback.

So thank you everybody for that.

The next item is the Yubico update.

Now unfortunately the lead officer, Peter Johnson,

is down with a Lurgee, so she's not able to be here.

And the cabinet member, and I'm very jealous,

Andrea Pellegrom has got tickets to go to the biotechnistry today

and since they're like gold dust, I can understand

that she is not here. We do have Mike is going to be standing from the council side.

Hello, you are going back up there.

Thank you, Beth.

Would you like to introduce yourselves?

I'm not quite sure of the format of what you have planned.

I know some people have submitted some questions, but I think there's various things which will emerge during the debate.

Guest - 0:15:01

So thank you very much. Over to you.

Thank you very much. Thank you for having us.

I'm Beth Boughton, Managing Director at UBICO, and I've got Mark Osment with me, who's our Acting Operations Director at UBICO.

So yes, we've had some questions in advance. We weren't asked to prepare a report.

We've got a brief update, sort of operationally, of where things are at the moment for you.

We had some questions and we'll try to cover those off in the update

If that suits everybody and then if there's any else we can come back

Guest - 0:15:31

I'll hand to Mark who's going to start with a bit of an operational update for you

Thank you afternoon everyone so

I'll run through a brief update on operations and I'll start with health and safety

recent reports on health and safety show a decreasing trend in

vehicular and personal accidents

They also indicate a good consistent trend in safety concern reporting.

So we take safety concern reporting very important at Yubico.

It's a slight change from what historically people might know as near miss reporting.

So we take the safety concern reporting basis that we have a workforce that's very diligent

in terms of recognising risk.

So those two for us are intrinsically linked.

high levels of safety concerns will always result in lower incidents, lower accidents and a safer workforce.

So just in terms of performance, so collection accuracy, recent reports are showing a heading in the right direction.

So we're seeing a reduction in misses.

We still experience challenges around vehicle age.

We have an ageing fleet, particularly around our recycling vehicles, which are the CWS -style vehicles.

They're particularly challenging because those vehicles are not made anymore, so when it

comes to breakdowns or issues with them, it's hard to source parts.

Luckily, we have an exceptional workshop who are amazing at putting things together and

getting them back out on the road.

Recruitment has been an issue recently, so particularly around HUV drivers.

There is a recognised shortage in the industry, and we're taking pragmatic steps to address

that through recruitment processes with our partners at Publica, but also we've

been doing a lot of work in terms of our loader to driver scheme, so we look to

grow our own. That's twofold in terms of its benefits. A, there's a pathway for our

employees which is beneficial in terms of retention, but also those loaders that

go on to become drivers are familiar with the areas that they're driving in,

which is one of the unique challenges of our HOV drivers versus some others in

the industry, we find that the majority of HV drivers are a bit of

manoeuvring at the start, long drives on big roads, bit of manoeuvring at the end

where we're the polar opposite. Lots of manoeuvring through the day and very very

rarely are we driving in straight lines. Other issues that we've had

recently have been high level of absence, so particularly

during July and August with the heat wave where employees we tried to mitigate

by starting early in some cases where we could to try and avoid the midday heat.

So we are first of all really grateful to the employees that worked during that heatwave.

It was a difficult period and I think it was recognised in terms of the tasks that Ayana

took during that time.

Then I just wanted to touch upon a question that was raised around streets post collection,

so the condition of some of the streets.

There's a question raised around what we're doing to address that.

So we do have a suite of toolbox talks and training that we roll out which covers this

and we have an intensive supervisory programme that goes out and monitors crews while they

are working alongside CCCV monitoring.

Clearly that hasn't captured everything in all roads so what we are looking to do following

that question is have a concerted scheme where we roll out a bit like we did with the goal

campaign which was a driving campaign about getting out looks so

we're looking to roll out a scheme company -wide around the benefits of

making sure that we leave a street worst -case scenario as good as we found

it but ideally in a better position than when we collected from the street.

Guest - 0:19:26

Guest - 0:19:28

Thank you Mark and just to follow up on that vehicle we have got a lot of

problems with the vehicles breaking down at the moment,

but new recycling vehicles are due just after Christmas,

we're hoping, so that should help hugely.

So we have another few questions that came through.

One was around the hydro treated vegetable oil,

which is the bio fuel equivalent for diesel

and whether we'd be successful in sourcing 100 %

as a diesel alternative.

So we haven't had any supply issues with that lately.

We need a tank in place before we can start to put it

in vehicles locally in the Cotswolds,

and that project's underway.

So watch this space, but we haven't had

any supply issues so far on that.

We were also asked about process management systems

for quality improvement that we use.

For example, Lean Six Sigma, and those sorts of things.

And we don't have a formal programme like that.

We're not an engineering or manufacturing environment.

And we have a lot of factors that are very variable.

So you don't quite know what the weather's gonna do,

and you don't quite know how many people

are going to turn up perhaps that morning because of absence and things, you can't always

know that your vehicle is going to make it to the end of the day. So we have lots of

processes but we don't have those sort of very engineering manufacturing based processes.

We do things slightly differently. So our approach is based on our quality management

systems really across the business and getting all those in place we're looking at whether

or not we strive for ISO 9001 accreditation to standardise that. At the moment we've got

the 14 ,001 and the health and safety one,

which has now gone from my head,

the health and safety one and the environment one.

And so we're looking at whether we get

the quality one as well.

But essentially we regularly measure all of our performance

against KPIs, agreed KPIs with all of our councils,

things like response time, service standards,

talking about litter drops, that sort of thing,

complaints like that,

right first time collections Mark was talking about.

We use telematics and systems from the vehicles

to give us lots of data and feedback and we use that in a data led way.

So a great example of this is the driver performance scheme that we run where we help our drivers

is really successful in the consoles as well to be less sort of heavy if you like when

they're driving in terms of carbon.

So cornering more gently, braking more gently, those sorts of things and that education that

the programme that we've got in and all of that data comes out of our vehicles automatically

via the telematics system.

So there's that, we've got an in cab system for all of our collections now, so it tells

the crews which streets they've got to collect and they mark down where they've been and

any problems.

And all of that data philtres back through into our systems, our frontline staff then

and our supervisors are able to look at that and say, right, we've got a repeated problem

here or we've got an issue that we could address like the driver carbon footprint one.

And then we tend to have good successes then coming out of that.

That's how we do it, but we don't have Six Sigma or Lean.

It wouldn't quite be right, I don't think, for our environment.

So I hope that helps on that one.

And the last question that we had was whether the cost per round is

increasing or decreasing relative to the cost of living index.

So I put our finance team on this one because it's not my thing.

However, they've told me.

The closest index that they could find was the consumer prices household

index and felt that was probably the most appropriate.

That was 3 .6 % in 24, 25 and 3 .3 % in 25, 26 and we are in line with that.

In fact, we're below it.

So the answer to that is yes, if you're happy that that's the index that we used.

I think that was all the questions covered.

Yes.

Yeah.

In comparison.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:23:09

Well, thank you.

Thank you both for that introduction.

I'm sure loads of people have got questions on this, particularly around the costs, which

is the finance, and I'm afraid to say there's something called fuel, which is very little

you know, the fuel costs are going up, and the current situation in the Gulf is not making

it make things easier.

So who would like to start with the first question?

Councillor David Cunningham - 0:23:34

Councillor Cunningham.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

A couple of questions.

One is a finance one you might want to go and look at that.

I like the idea of the loader to drive a scheme.

Does that include paying for lessons and eventually paying for the test?

Because they're not cheap at all.

And have you budgeted for that?

If 20 people come forward have you got the money to do that or will you be coming to us?

That's one.

And one of the...

I get very few these days, very few emails talking about missed collections.

elections, which is great. But I do get emails about people seeing people putting out green

waste bins that have nothing to do with CDC and getting picked up anyway. I know there

has been some training done with the crews being told to cheque to make sure the licences

are on there, but that is one of the bugbears, and I get it, I do, these licences are expensive,

are going to get a lot more expensive, I would imagine, given the MTFS we're seeing today.

So I would think just reiterating that to the crews to ensure that they are picking

up the right receptacles would go down well with the residents that are paying it.

Thanks.

Guest - 0:24:50

If I, I'll leave the finance one, just in terms of the garden waste one.

So interestingly, it was a conversation I had with another partner a couple of weeks

ago.

I think we recognise the challenge between first time collections and sometimes the crews can try to do the right thing by thinking they're going down the road and collecting every bin that's presented.

It's quite an easy trap to fall into.

So we've picked this up because it's not right to pick up an unsubscribe or a household that hasn't subscribed to the Garden Way scheme.

So we're currently looking at rolling out something to just reinforce that because we don't want bins that aren't due to be collected to be collected.

But we also want to make sure that we're collecting the bins that they should be.

So we are looking at ways that we can improve that.

Guest - 0:25:34

On the question about financing the loader to drivers,

yes, it is within our budgets.

We would love it if we had 20.

We don't, unfortunately.

If we did have 20, we probably would be coming back and saying

we need some investment.

But it's never been that volume.

So yeah, but it's within budgets at the moment.

And yes, we do fund it for them as well.

I think we expect them to get their initial driving licence

if they haven't got it already.

Guest - 0:25:58

And then we pay for the HGV.

Sorry, just on the driver's licence, it's not a...

So the training team that we have at Ubico set up a specific programme that is for us for

the loader to drive us, so it's not the same as if you were to go out yourself and have

the lessons and then a test at the end.

We've got a service provider that helps us control those costs.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:26:18

Councillor Jon Wareing - 0:26:20

I think Councillor Waring was next.

Thank you.

Given what you said about the telematics, does that mean that if a route is going to

miss some collections, you already know about it?

So really there isn't a requirement for residents to be reporting.

Is that correct?

Guest - 0:26:41

Good question.

So in theory I suppose yes, but the crews might report something not presented and the

Household may perceive there's a different reason that it wasn't collected if you see what I mean, so

I don't think it is quite as as

Good as that in terms of immediate intelligence, but yes, it feeds back live what's happening?

So when the crew says they've completed a street the problem is if it's an assisted property and it's hidden or it's not been out

That quite on time those sorts of things the crew might report one thing in the household of might think another so yes

They might phone in and so and I don't think we report by exception and report through by exception

this one wasn't collected if you like we report a complete street.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:27:27

Councillor Slootenay. Yes.

Councillor Tony Slater - 0:27:32

Now I appreciate it's not an exact science but compared to the previous

rounds that we had and the working patterns changes, is there an increase or decrease

in the amount of sickness between the two rounds? I know there wasn't a hot summer and

World Cup this year, last year, but is there any change in absenteeism?

Guest - 0:28:05

I was looking at this data last week and I would say no, it's not changed it. I could

the last 12 months, maybe it was a little bit longer ago than that, but it's pretty

steady.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:28:16

Councillor David Cunningham - 0:28:20

Councillor Cunningham, another question?

I'll make this short, I promise, thank you, Madam Chair. I just wanted to ask a question

about the small pick -up vans, because one of the challenges we have, I mean not in Tyre

and Cessna, obviously they've got it easy down here, but when you get further up into

the weeds some of the roads are not suitable for some of the lorries so have

Guest - 0:28:43

we got into that smaller van yet? So we've got narrow access vehicles they

are part of the fleet that needs replacing so and there we are due to get

replacement vehicles there's more than seven and a half tonne more than seven and

a half tonne vehicles the issue that we often face with those is more that you

have so few of them that when one goes down and you can't send out another

vehicle to go and collect. So we're looking at making sure that we've got

good sort of supply through higher short -term hire as well if we need to

call upon that but yeah we certainly have vehicles that can access every

single road inside the district.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:29:17

Councillor Nikki Ind - 0:29:19

Councillor Inge. Yes just a couple of questions particularly in my ward in the

street in which I live it's a Friday so if there's ever a problem it really is a

till four o 'clock. We have to wait till four o 'clock to have a look. The last

time this happened on my street it thought it collected everything and it

clearly hadn't. And I think it turned out there was a new crew and I still can't

quite get my head around how you've got this in cab technology but every bin all

the way around a very long street, green bin, had not been collected and it was

understand how we could have in -cab technology. You might have new people but

they must have known that probably the best part of a hundred houses had not

mean that we all have a green bin but a lot of them would have had. I just that's

quite a challenge. I think that's challenging. I think I'm just raising that that's a

challenge for our residents who can't report. You can't ring up after two

o 'clock here. You've got to wait till four o 'clock to do it online. I mean I've got

them all doing it, reporting it online now, but it's just when it does happen it seems

to be more of a problem when it's a Friday collection.

The other thing is street cleaning.

Do you do the street, you do the, so I've got bizarrely today in one of my villages

they've complained to highways and I was just thinking about this thinking I don't think

it's highways.

So I've got a village where everybody parks in the street and everybody, and they ask

If you're going to do anything, can you please tell us?

We'll leaflet everybody and we'll get them to move their vehicles.

But they've been down today and nobody knew they were coming.

So, is there somewhere I can get that information to that I can give to my parish councils to say,

that particular parish council, everyone parks in the street.

And so they want to be able to say to somebody, you know, if you were to say to that particular parish council,

We're coming to your street next Wednesday. They would put a note out on their village

Whatsapp and ask everyone to move their cars because on Wednesday the street sweep is coming.

It's come today. Nobody knew about it. So it hasn't been able to do what so what waste of money?

It's driven all the way to the other side of Tethbury to not be able to do what it was there to do

Guest - 0:31:44

Just be a common sense really

Yeah, of course we'll take that away and have a chat perhaps with Peter when she's back as well because that will involve a bit of

via various routes I should think so we'll take that away and have a little

look at it. In terms of that thing with the in cab system and the whole street

that's a mystery to me that should have worked so we'll take that away and have

Guest - 0:32:06

a look at it as well hopefully it's an anomaly. So it's a really good point on

the on the street cleaning and we've been looking at how we can address this

one of the issues we've had is when we or if we were to commit to saying the

the sweeper is going to be in this street on this day we found that we have

to be quite reactive for street cleaning because if there's an issue we do have

to sometimes deviate from from any form of a schedule and what we wouldn't want

to be doing is telling residents not to park there and the sweeper not turn up

because different criticism but equally as valid so so we are looking at what we

can do with that but as Beth said we'll take that we'll take that away and in an

ideal world we could almost touch base the day before but there's nothing to

say the morning of we might need to we might need to reschedule and sweepers

often you know if it has a problem it's off the road and we've made everyone

park somewhere else we're gonna get mad on it. The garden waste is, sorry not the

garden waste, the Friday collection is another one which is we're trying to

think sort of of new ways that we can get around that and we are lining up

crews to sort of have availability for Saturday collections because there's

nothing worse than when it's not collected on a Friday you have to wait

to the Monday by just by nature of being on the Friday so we'll take that away

and work with Peter on it.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:33:13

Thank you I had some questions.

Councillor Boomer.

Councillor Claire Bloomer - 0:33:18

Councillor Claire Bloomer - 0:33:27

Thank you I think most of my colleagues have covered quite a few questions.

Just following on actually from what Councillor Inge has mentioned I think it would be great

if we could have some form of schedule.

I appreciate that you can't promise that and I think residents would be aware of that if we

highlighted that but I definitely know for residents they would very much appreciate that

and it's a question we do get asked a lot. A few years ago I brought this question to yourselves

and it is health and safety and sort of hygiene. As we know COVID is long gone, well I don't know

with recent news but you know and very often I will see the UBICO workers walking around

supermarkets with family in their uniform. I'm assuming that same uniform

is also worn while they're emptying waste and I just wondered if there was

any policy and you know very often find with chefs and people that work in

hospitality are unable to wear that outside of their workplace for hygiene

reasons and I just wondered if that would be something that you guys may be

Guest - 0:34:31

considering. No we don't have that policy and it's not something we're

considering, we wouldn't have space to provide everybody with lockers and changing all those

sorts of things in most of our depots either. But what we do have is if the crew has had

a significant spill in the day, there's spare PPE in the depots so they could go in and

get changed. So if they've got soaking wet or they've got covered in something, then

they should be able to come in and get a spare of something and pop that on during the day

because you wouldn't want to carry on your day if that happened. It's not very nice.

So by the time, I wouldn't expect that they would be in a state where they shouldn't be in a supermarket,

because I can assure you if that's happened, you wouldn't want to carry on anyway.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:35:13

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 0:35:16

Thank you. Councillor Jenkinson.

Thank you. Excuse me if I point this way, but...

So, thank you very much for answering the questions that I pre -submitted.

One of them was about quality systems, and you kindly did answer it.

And I was very pleased with the, you know, to hear overall the

answers also on the other ones.

It's good.

But following up on that one question, part of the reason why

companies implement a quality system is to be able to get

predictable results that are reliable and consistent.

And taking notice of your remarks about the variability of

what is going on, clearly it doesn't mean that you'd want to

chaotic and every time things do turn a bit chaotic you get all kinds of complaints. So

that's not your objective. So the question really is, if you don't think that you can

use a quality system, how do you go about the process of achieving predictable, reliable

results? How do you manage that?

Guest - 0:36:21

So I think that's what I meant when I was sort of referring to the data that we're collecting.

So all of this data that we've got that's coming either from the technologies we've

installed or from our records about mis -bins and that sort of thing all goes

into I suppose a data lake if you want to give it a technical term and then we

have a performance team we have two people who it's not a huge team who look

at all of our performance data and produce dashboards for us so when I say

we can react to the information that's coming through it all comes through on a

dashboard so we can go on live and see how good performance was last week on

all sorts of things or last month depending how quickly that data sort of

turns around, so that's carbon, safety, performance, absence,

attrition, all of those sorts of key things

that you would expect us to be looking at, feed

through those dashboards.

So then we use that as an early warning system.

We're then also developing a balanced scorecard.

So it's still in process, but essentially that

gives you a red amber green of the things

you need to look at right now because it's

going south, for example.

So I don't know if absence suddenly in one particular area

has suddenly taken a peak.

we can see that pretty swiftly and say we need to get onto that straightaway.

So we don't have one system, but we have lots of systems that feed into that.

Yes.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:37:35

Right. Thank you.

I've got a few questions and I'm going to give them all together and they're fairly short, I would say.

First of all, I want to actually say, and I have been detained a few residents that are in Yubico coming today,

and generally, do you know what, we're a Monday place, so it's slightly different.

But one thing was they're very impressed that you actually come on the bank holidays on the Monday places.

So it is very much appreciated that.

The only thing they would say was they're having more bins getting bussed or whatever it is.

There is an issue slightly with them not lasting as long.

And one person said, oh gosh, I was thinking of buying this house, but I didn't think I'd get it

because where I'd have to take the bin to is so up a narrow path up to the road.

And I said, well, you know, if you're infirm and things,

you could ask for the assisted collection.

I don't know how you're, how many people you have

on assisted collections, but I know that can be very helpful.

And I said, that shouldn't deter you.

I'm sure that could, you know, be of help.

So there are other questions, regular questions, but how many

days if you, when you get this fuel bunker, which you're hoping

to have installed now that planning, I think, I don't know

whether it was actually the planning through, but anyway,

how many days fuel would be in the bunker?

how much can you store at a time?

And also, you've expanded into Wiltshire,

and how has this affected you and your workforce?

I know that quite a lot of your workforce historically,

quite a few of them have come from Swindon,

and so therefore they might be more attracted

to having a job on the refuse trucks,

going Wiltshire way rather than all the way up

to Chipping Camden.

Guest - 0:39:15

So I just wanted to know how that had impacted it.

Yeah, of course. So our, I don't know how big the fuel tank planned for the depot is

actually, but our other fuel tanks, we were looking at this last week because of fuel

supply potential issues. And obviously having a bit to think about what happens then. Most

of our depots have sort of about two weeks worth of supply in in their depots. Now some

of them have got diesel tanks and HVO tanks, so that's both of them. But that's sort of

the principal, we get them filled up every week or every fortnight depending

how much we use. So yes it's not a day's worth it is one to two weeks

worth and in the event of a situation where there was a fuel shortage and we

prioritised our services depending on you know what we had to do and we'd

probably have three to four weeks worth so that's an answer for other depots but

I would hope that it would translate to the the hydro treated vegetable oil here

as well. Albeit, are we getting a diesel tank as well here? The plan? Yeah, yeah.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:40:16

So it should be the same, yeah. I'd understood before that it was in one of

these bunkers you can actually mix the fuel if necessary so therefore that was

what we'd had in an earlier meeting that was what we were told and it was going

to be slightly on the cost basis or it could be just the hydro treated or it

could just be diesel or a mixture I'm not sure. So you're now thinking of

having two bunkers.

Councillor Mike Evemy - 0:40:38

Can I say that without the cabinet member

and the lead officer, Peter, here,

I don't think we should be clicked.

Unless I'm looking at my colleagues,

I don't think we know the answer to that.

So I don't think we should put that in the public domain

if we're not sure it's right.

So I think what we can do is take that away

and get an answer back for you, Chair.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:41:00

Thank you for that.

Guest - 0:41:04

And then about your expansion into wheelchair, please.

Sorry, yes, the expansion into Wiltshire has been very smooth. We haven't seen any drift

yet of staff from one side to the other, but you're right, it's geographically very close.

So, no, but the closest depot that they have to here is Caan, so I suppose it's a little

bit further away than it being just over the border. So, yeah, no, we haven't seen any

of those problems yet, but it's been very smooth so far.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:41:28

I just had one further thing. We were going to be discussing AI later in the meeting.

Have you looked at any AI particularly on crunching the data you're collecting

Guest - 0:41:42

and using it to be more efficient and time saving time? We've just got on our

work plan for this year to develop an AI strategy but some of those things I

talked about around fleet essentially are already AI so the telematics so data

comes back into the workshops about things like breakware padware and

things like that so we don't routinely just replace a break pad we don't have

to replace it until we actually know that it needs replacing.

So all those sorts of things have been going on

for a few years.

The performance of the vehicles,

so we know that sort of thing as well.

And then there are various conversations

about different technologies that you can have

in the waste industry.

One of them is sort of around,

you can get things like reversing sensors and things,

we've started to instal those on our new vehicles

that if there is something in the way,

like a person walks back,

the vehicle will automatically stop.

And of course they are generating then,

it's essentially an AI thing

where it's generating reports for us.

we can see how often those things have happened.

So I'd say yes, but mostly around fleet, interestingly.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:42:37

But yeah, it's something we're looking at generally.

Well, thank you very much.

Ooh, I don't want to end on this.

Does anybody else have any other questions

or anything else they'd like to raise?

Well, thank you very much.

And thank you because it was much appreciated.

And I do think you have been,

the service has been definitely improved and smoother.

And I think, but the issue about reporting mis -collections is the one which is a problem.

Thank you.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:43:14

So the next topic is the 2027 -28 budget strategy and medium term financial strategy update.

So can I ask Patrick Coleman, who is our cabinet member for finance, and David Stanley is the

lead officer, the deputy chief executive officer and S151 officer to come up and give the report,

which is quite a lot of pages, quite a lot of numbers.

So I'm sure there will be lots of questions.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:44:10

Patrick, you're going to introduce it, please.

Councillor Patrick Coleman - 0:44:16

Thank you, Chair.

This is the week in which we might hear something

about our local government review timetable,

the government announcement.

Pennsylvania is the best I can say for this week.

We're working in a context of challenging national finances

and impact on finances, particularly fuel costs, but you're all aware of that.

And the Council's efforts, particularly the financial department, but also all departments,

to ensure that the best possible values achieved from the work we do, and particularly utilise

recruiting and retaining and encouraging our professional staff, I sometimes wonder what

great thing it is incidentally that councils managed to attract so many

talented staff given that there is so much uninformed criticism particularly

in national media of a certain type. But turning to the documents before us I

think they do give it a good outline of the progress being made in establishing

medium -term financial strategy updates and preparing for next year's budget. At

this stage I'd have to say it is more challenging than I think it was at the

same stage last year particularly because of the sticky high rates of

interest although we do benefit from the money we've invested at those higher in

rates of interest that doesn't compensate for the feed through you get from higher interest

costs to things like wage settlements and so on. And incidentally I think everybody's aware that

the local government unions have settled at 3 .3 percent and councillors will receive the same.

I don't really want to go into any further on this without encouraging our chief officer

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:46:32

David Stanley to give his perspective if that's okay chair. Yes. Thank you David.

David Stanley, Deputy CEO - 0:46:34

Thank you chair. So just a bit from me. This builds on the MTFS that council

considered back in February of this year. Table 1 on page 9 of the supplementary

pack reminds members of what was forecast back in February and those

forecast will probably undertake them back into December, early January. So a budget

gap for 27 -28 of one and a half million, increase into two and a half million, increasing to

7 .2 million. That final figure is largely because the income protection that's in the

three -year funding settlement is assumed to drop out in 2029, 2030. That year is

outside the three -year funding settlement. It's outside the current

spending review period. So being prudent, we've assumed that won't continue. That

does cause considerable problems for district councils if they were to be in

existence at that point in time. It will cause problems for new unitaries should

they be in existence all the time because across Gloucester Shear off the top of my

head, I think it was about something like seven to nine million pounds of protection

afforded to district councils, MTFS positions in that particular year. So it will have an

impact on new unitary. It is imperative for the council to consider how to set that balanced

budget for 27 -28. There's been a bit of budget hokey cokey going on, so we did think 27 -28

would be the final year of setting a budget for the council but then on the

7th of September with the announcement from the Secretary of State in the House

of the pause to LGR 27 -28 may not be the final year so we have to approach the

budget and the MTFS on a going concern basis so I prepare a set of figures

regardless of whether or not the council will exist or not because those

decisions can be changed as we've seen. There was a decision in July that was then paused

in September. So it's important that we do continue to look at that MTFS period. So this

report provides you an update on the key changes and importantly sets out the approach for

how the 27 -28 budget will be agreed. So there's six sections of note. Executive summary, and

I've written down thanks AI because I looked at last year's executive summary, thought

that was very, very long and asked AI can they summarise it

in far fewer words, it has done so.

And I think it's pulled out some of the key bits of information.

Background key updates and I suppose the main section is

going to be around budget strategy and the MTFS.

In terms of key messages, I think to repeat what Councillor

Coleman has said, good progress has been made on addressing

that budget gap but we should not be complacent as a council and so of course

my advice is section 151 is how can we ensure that gap is as small or as

positive a gap as it can be and how do you keep closing that gap going forward.

So there is more to do so this is a where we are currently but clearly

there will be more work the officers and members will need to complete during the

remainder of the calendar year so that we can be in a good position come January to run through the usual cycle of meetings.

There are pressures, you've heard about some of them in terms of UVicos position.

General inflation is bouncing around a little, although interest rates are stubborn.

That has a knock -on impact and if interest rates go up that might help one side of the council's

finance in terms of investment income, but it might play out in other sides negatively.

Fuel, fuel's been on a bit of a roller coaster when we set the budget for 26 -27.

That was set prior to what happened on the 28th of February, so the assumption in the MTFS,

which is included in the budget strategy, was a pump price of £1 .44 a litre.

Those of you going to filling stations currently will notice it's not £1 .44 and it's considerably more than that.

We need to bear that in mind. So this report does set out as is pressure which will get reviewed.

But when you're buying 508 ,000 litres of diesel or Yubico are buying that on our behalf and that pump price has gone up and up,

that's going to come back and hurt the council's at about £230 ,000 of fuel cost if it remains at the current price.

We'll have to see what happens as a result of any change in refinery capacity and other such things.

We do need balanced and proportionate savings, so that mix between income and cost reduction,

One, the latter of that gives you a little bit more certainty than the income.

Although you'll notice in the MTFS there is a prudent rebasing of some of those income

lines particularly around car parking and other areas.

2028, 29 and 2930 gaps do need to be closed.

The LGR pause is unhelpful, although by the time this report is considered a cabinet on

Thursday there may be an update that changes that and you'll note in the report on paragraphs

1 .3 and repeated again in 2 .21 it does say that update may change or have a material

impact on the budget strategy. So that will need to be taken into account.

I suppose the final point is capital on section 6 is relatively short but relatively important

for members to consider because we do concentrate a lot on the setting of the

revenue budget, setting of the council tax, but that report in February will

also set the capital programme. That capital programme was agreed in February

particularly around the waste vehicle free to replacement programme and being

able to finance that from internal resources without the need to move

towards prudential borrowing. That's the current position. So we do have capital

receipts tucked away in the reserve that is shown in the Movement and Reserves

statement in the statement of council as published on the council's website 6 .3

million is the closing balance as it was on 31st of March. There'll be some

financing in year from that particularly around the waste fleet vehicles so from

a cash flow perspective we're expecting those payments to be made towards the

latter end of the year which ties in with Beth's statement around them being

ready in January, but then we expect the bulk of the rest of the vehicles to flow

into the following financial year. And then we've got some more to finance.

So one of the key considerations around the capital programme is how that capital

programme can continue to be financed for internal resources if that's the view of

members across the council in terms of that proposition. A more expansive

capital programme would test, I suppose, the ability for that to be achieved and that would

then require prudential borrowing if a more expansive capital programme is put forward.

But that's something to consider because given where interest rates are, those interest rates

in terms of what we would borrow from aren't the same as the base rate, which is 3 .75.

We're looking at over 6 % for long -term borrowing, probably about 5 .8 % for very short -term borrowing.

That is very expensive and something to consider.

But happy to take questions on the report.

Right, David, thank you for that.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:54:37

Councillor Cunningham is going to start us off, please.

Councillor David Cunningham - 0:54:42

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I do have questions. I'm not sure you're going to be able to answer them.

It's not because they're too hard.

because I don't think necessarily you're going to want to tease these out at this point.

So I have a couple of housekeeping questions.

So number one is, having had Yubico in just a minute ago, are we getting,

because it was something that we asked specifically for,

more regular updates on their costs from variables such as the diesel.

We were told we'd be getting more monthly reports so we didn't get caught out with big jumps in the budgets.

That's one question.

The other one is a much more general question,

and I'm not sure that you will want to or will be able to answer it,

which is, in order to balance these books,

we are going to have to put up the prices of the things that we do,

and we're going to have to cut out some of the nice things that we do.

Have those things been decided yet,

or are they in the process of being decided now?

David Stanley, Deputy CEO - 0:55:54

So in terms of the UBCO question, we are getting regular updates from UBCO.

We've got a meeting with them in terms of the finances on Wednesday, and we'll be going

back through that, because where we have been up until probably the last three or four weeks

is that diesel price had settled down.

That diesel price has gone back up.

And particularly we're looking at how to mitigate that as best we can until that fuel bunker

is in place.

Once the fuel bunker is in place, then that does allow

for some forward purchasing because you're purchasing bulk

which reduces that exposure.

In terms of how to balance the budget, you're quite right

to say the cost to end users will need to be reviewed.

That hasn't been decided.

What you'll see in Annex B of the report

on page 54 is a rebasing of,

particularly around car parking comes.

So in 25 -26 in the out turn report we reported a good

400 ,000 pounds of additional income from car parks.

That's been the position that's been reported in Q1.

We did not include in the current year that increase

because it was at that point in time was that a one -off,

was that a continuing trend.

That's been continuing throughout the first half of

the financial year so I'm comfortable about

reflecting that as a reasonable income target.

The MTFS in February did include the assumption that the price of

end user costs would go up, so the fees that we charge for

garden waste would increase.

The issue is how the cost of that service increases

or changes.

So we need to bear that in mind.

There is a piece of work that the finance team is doing with

budget holders reviewing all the fees and charges in terms of the schedule.

That will be presented to cabinet in January and cabinet will then make a decision on that.

But we're mindful that given pressures there are on individuals, given there are pressures

on the council's budget, we need to make sure we're balancing that out.

But as I said before, a proportionate and balanced reduction in cost or increase in

income is needed.

So we will be looking at almost everything.

nothing is off the table but it's working with cabinet members, members

more generally to identify where that could be done. What I would say is rather

than just looking at the nice to do, we need to look at everything. What is the

cost of everything that we do as a council and how can we deliver that in

the most cost effective and efficient way. That said, if you have limited

resources and very little scope for a manoeuvre, as some councils do but we

are not in that same financial position, then you do look at reducing the level of service

you provide or reducing the number of services you provide.

That's not where this council is.

We do have healthy earmarked reserves that can support the MTFS, but that isn't a sustainable

position over the medium term.

It's about making those decisions early enough to address that without the need then to take

more drastic action further down the line.

Councillor David Cunningham - 0:59:09

Okay, thank you for that. I appreciate that.

No, it's fine. You don't have the answers yet because you haven't made the decisions yet.

I just think it's important for members to be made aware of the things that we have to do

as a district council, as opposed to the things that perhaps we like to do and

that add value to residents but are not necessarily the mandatory services that

we have. And perhaps we need to draw a line just under those mandatory services

and see what they cost us and then anything underneath that line it's I

wouldn't say open season but we need to be realistic about it if we're going to

be as tight on the money in the back years as we look as though we are. I do

I have a question about the 420 ,000 overspend

on the local plan, but that might need a bit more

extra detail, so we don't need to go into that right now.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:00:06

Thank you.

Councillor Jon Wareing - 1:00:09

I think it was Councillor Waring next.

I guess with sort of decades of underfunding

of local government, councils all over have been

looking to squeeze efficiencies, cost savings,

and it seems to me there's a window of which

Some councils have been failing earlier.

I bet maybe some of that because they weren't managing themselves sufficiently prudently,

but are you confident that there are areas for cost saving still in this council

that are significant enough to take us forward?

Councillor Patrick Coleman - 1:00:49

I'll make a start with something that in this way I think has been into that already earlier in the meeting,

which is there are undoubtedly savings to be secured through the appropriate use of AI.

I am something of an AI sceptic and I think I need to stop looking at anything that's a picture

online because so much of it is AI slop. But in the serious world of delivering services

and there's no doubt that people who are working really hard, professional people, are finding

appropriate tailored uses for AI that do make things more efficient to the extent

that there are significantly fewer jobs forecast, perhaps already this is the

case in certain relatively professional fields. But I also think one of the ways

that has been a lesson to me in the last few years is how fortunate, not just

our ancestor, though we are the biggest place and the place I know best, but I think it's

true across our district. How fortunate we've been in the public -spirited nature of so many

of the enterprises and businesses and undertakings across our district. And not just that, but

the generosity of individuals. We had a trust in our ancestor called the Winston Trust.

I don't know the details much, but five million pound by the terms of that legacy had to be

spent within a certain time frame and has financed startups in a way. The

startup of our history festival is certainly one and I'm sure it's

contributed to the repair of listed buildings and to the renovation of our

open air swimming pool. And on top of that we see businesses being very

public -spirited. St. James Place perhaps doesn't get enough credit for that

given its other issues it's had to face over the years. But if you look at the

after business has been proud to be a named sponsor and we have coming up very

soon. I think it's the third history festival which OK is based in

Syrinsester but stretches a long way outside and brings in people. Again that's

been achieved through people loving our district and wanting to contribute so

we're fortunate to have talented professional staff, very talented

financial stuff and get away with saying that I'm sure it is true but also a

public spirited population I'm tempted to say this is reflected in the general

election results but that would be entirely wrong at this point and in this

place but I think we've got extra strength there and extra resources there

and I don't think Sire ancestor is any is particularly special in that way I

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:03:46

that's the case in the towns and settlements across the district. Thank

David Stanley, Deputy CEO - 1:03:49

you. David, did you want to add something? So I was just gonna say as CFO you would

expect me to pass some comment on whether there is more that could be done

to balance that budget absolutely. There is always choice, the council has a

choice as to where it puts that limited resource. So we know we've got council

tax, we know we've got funding certainty over the next two financial, the next two

financial years from the settlement.

We know with a degree of certainty what we'll get from

fees and charges, we know what those services currently cost.

There will always be stuff that we can choose to do less of,

not to do.

Those choices might not be nice, they might not be easy,

but it would be rumours of me to say to Patrick or to say to Mike

as leader, there is nothing more we can do.

I think you then get in this is where the decision -making will need to be in place

If you don't do some of the things that you could do that list becomes less and less palatable

And you then start impacting on those things that are nice to do and have a wider benefit

To communities to our residents and that you're doing that as a short -term measure to balance the books

but actually it has a longer term impact.

So we just need to bear that in mind.

There's always choice if we were a different council and we had a

bottom line that said you've got three million pounds to find,

if not you need to go and get EFS as a council not too far

away has done and you'll see an XA lists all those councils

who have EFS.

They are having to do quite significant changes

to their cost base.

They are looking at making quite significant changes to the

services they provide.

That's not the scale of where we are, but in a sense, if the Council doesn't address

some of those problems going forward, that's the way it might be.

And yes, we can look at the amount of money in the system.

I'm old enough to remember finance settlements of years gone by where the CFO would walk

up and down the corridors of power in particular authority going, we didn't get as much extra

money as I thought we were going to get.

those days are long gone and it's more we've got away with not quite the size

of the cut that we thought it was going to be but that means we still got to

address what that gap is. Councillor Warren did you want to come back you

Councillor Jon Wareing - 1:06:14

signalled earlier. Well I wanted to come back up really about AI but I don't know

whether to save it for the AI debate because okay I'll save it.

Councillor Nikki Ind - 1:06:28

I'll cancel it in please. Thank you. The one thing that really concerns me about

LGR and the whole toing and froing that's currently going on is the effect

that it's having on our staff and the uncertainty that that puts people under.

I suppose one of my questions is are we are we experiencing or are we

anticipating some members of staff leaving us and therefore us having to

staff fire agencies which are so much more expensive and us being unable to

employ people because we're in this limbo land and people might not

necessarily do it. I just wondered if that's being seen at this point or

David Stanley, Deputy CEO - 1:07:14

whether we're anticipating it. So in terms of impact of the LGR pause or

potential unpause. Corporate leadership team last year made a conscious decision

to strengthen the authority to fill as I call it vacancy management process. So

where an officer leaves there is then a process where before anyone is recruited

either on a permanent short -term or any other basis that's reviewed by corporate

leadership team and last year were able to take quite significant number of

vacancies out of the system and reduce the cost going forward.

Part of that mitigation was then do we need full -time staff that

are permanent or do we use agency staff to use fixed -term

contracts, so that pause put some of that mitigation at risk.

So if you've got a series of fixed -term contracts in place

up until the 31st of March, 2028, and LGR is delayed for a

year or two, that poses a problem.

It's very difficult.

It's a risk we're aware of at CL2.

We've been reviewing the strategic risk register in

advance of that coming back through cabinet and audit and

governance committee for Q2 reporting.

So we're mindful of that, but I think it also provides some

opportunities for people that, you know, may have said, well,

I'm definitely stopping work on the 31st of March, 2028.

if that allows a slightly different pattern of work and they can manage a

workload and the council's demands on that individual different so the short

answer is it will change but it will change very differently for different

people we already have pressures in planning it's very difficult to recruit

suitably qualified planners and retain them I don't see how the LGR pause is

going to help that and we are expecting I suppose a a number of people given the

age of an employee at Cotswold District Council is 49 that that's where you're

going to be it's how we then can ensure they are able to give as much as they

can give up to a point that they're comfortable with and suits the council

but it will be an ongoing recruitment problem not just for us but for the new

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:09:35

unitaries. Thank you I think that's a very it's a very important issue and of

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 1:09:44

cost. I've got Councillor Jackson please. Thank you chair and thank you for this

very interesting report. When I went through it I generated I think eight or

nine different questions that I would like to ask and figured out it wouldn't

be possible to ask all those questions. So I'm planning to ask two that are

related. The first is this. The MTFS reflects a strategy that seems to

to be more focused on conserving financial assets, financial reserves and so forth, than

on driving change. In some senses that's also expressed in some of the assumptions.

So can you tell us how much of the improvements that have happened, and since I've been here

I've always heard there's going to be, it's not so bad today, but it's going to be disaster

tomorrow and disaster keeps receding into the little bit further on.

But how much of the improvements that have been derived since we last looked at this

in a serious way, maybe a year or so ago, derive from genuine structural change versus

revised assumptions?

Could you give us any examples?

Councillor Patrick Coleman - 1:10:58

I'll see if I can avoid putting my foot in anything.

but the first response that came to mind was the successful transition of a

significant number of staff back into the direct employment by the council

from Publica and that was quite a tricky looking process when it was

started some time ago. The cost of it wasn't known in full, the number of staff

it would affect wasn't known in full. We got in an experienced, I'd have to call

him a consultant but I was I didn't know much about it all at the time but I was

quite impressed and that the whole process was carried through and I shall

always remember the first celebration of the new staffs whatever it was called in

this room absolutely packed and everybody focused on the positive side

you could almost feel the the positivity now not least of course when you bring

people back in they get a better pension. Now okay I'm 73 so I'm quite interested

in pensions. Apparently you have to stop paying in when you're 75 I discovered so

that's bad news. But serious point is when you worked hard studied hard and

taken a bit of a battering particularly if you work in planning you do deserve

the wage that your union gets for you and you deserve a decent pension and the

Otherwise, you'll go and work for somebody else which has better public transport or

a wider range city and so on.

So I think that is an example of a process that didn't have to be done and was chosen

to be done and was carried through with a lot of uncertainties initially and I would

say is as successful as anybody could have hoped.

I'm not saying there's no problems because I expect there are quite a few, nobody troubling

us.

Sorry to be so long on that one, but that was one of the biggest things the administration

I was only a backbencher for this process but it carried it through and I was very pleased.

I think there are a few more.

David Stanley, Deputy CEO - 1:13:05

I think table 3 on page 38, which I have referred to already, there is a significant number

of baseline adjustments.

On the published pack on the modern .gov website, it's got page numbers, but I don't think it

is in your printed copies. So paragraph 5 .46, the table above that. There's about a million

pounds of baseline adjustments for 2728. That's not what I would determine as a structural

change to the cost base. That's taking into account performance from prior

years or revising the adjustment. The next chunk down, which is cost reductions

and efficiencies, just over half a million, 220 ,000 of that is coming out of

the performance of the leisure contract. So when the leisure contract was let, the

bid that Freedom provided made an assumption on performance. They've

outperformed and part of the terms of that contract, there's a profit share. So

you could look at that in a favourable way

and say that's part of a structural change

in being more efficient

in terms of the way that contract is managed.

Vacancy management is more about reviewing the staff

that are required to undertake the council's priorities.

Public and Yupico is the expectation that public

when reviewing their budget for 27, 28

and how that's apportioned across

We'll look at ways to make that service more efficient,

less costly.

Yubico, I put in brackets mitigation cost pressures.

It's very difficult to say they're going to reduce the cost

of what they do, given where fuel prices are.

It's the expectation that if fuel prices are exerting quite

significant influence on that contract sum,

that Yubico are then looking at everything else they do and

coming back to us in a proactive manner with here's how we can

deliver some of these things in a different way that doesn't cost as much as it did the

day before.

So I would argue that at this early stage, there's none of that structural change.

The reserve levels are handily shown on the table that follows on the next page.

There's 5 .2 million of council priority reserves.

They can be reviewed.

risk mitigation, that's largely timing differences.

Financial resilience reserve, 2 .4 million,

is to enable us to support the MTFS in a do -nothing

scenario, so if there were no savings,

there were no cost efficiencies,

there's enough set aside to help mitigate a one -off

impact on the MTFS.

Business rates risk is a timing difference.

675 Treasury management risk is the IFRS 9 statutory

override is due to end in March 2029. There is a £975 ,000 capital loss against our pooled

fund investments. Currently there are some members in the room that would have attended

that training session from Arlene Close where that was kind of spelt out. So holding that

balance is to ensure if the statutory override isn't renewed, and I don't think it's an if,

it probably won't be, if there is still a capital loss on those pooled fund investments,

the council set aside an adequate amount to mitigate that paper loss because it will have to account for the paper loss.

So I think there is a balance here in terms of changes to assumptions.

Members could look at some of those reserves, say could they be used in terms of treating them as an asset to do something more.

I think the other key factor is how much time has the council got to affect that change,

given the LGR pause might be unpaused, fairly soon after that, if LGR is back on the original

timetable, structural changes order will be laid and the section 24 directive will come

in, which will then require the council to consult with the new shadow authority on any

significant financial undertaking, be that entering into a new contract, be that disposing

more acquiring of assets, so on and so forth.

So timing and deliverability is going to be key in addressing

some of those.

But certainly at the moment, it's

mainly been driven by a reassessment of what we're

currently doing than reviewing how we're doing it

Councillor Patrick Coleman - 1:17:47

and trying to drive cost change through that.

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 1:17:52

So thank you very much.

And you delivered it with your usual mastery and knowledge

for the details.

My complementary question is at 1 .6 there's a statement

about a set of principle assumptions.

And my reading of these assumptions is that quite a few

of them, if not all, look a little bit more like design

principles than assumptions.

Whatever the terminology is concerned, there's a set of,

as it were, goals that we establish as CDC

and as the financially responsible individual officer,

you have various rules that govern that.

And as a council, we have various goals

and we have a cabinet that's trying to set those.

I'm wondering how the process works whereby cabinet supported

by Council, goes into a process of asking for, requesting, looking for change, while

at the same time finance is trying to conserve the financial position and you're making decisions

about what kind of changes. Could you give us some insights into how that process actually

operates and functions or even if it does?

David Stanley, Deputy CEO - 1:19:17

So in terms of what's set out in 1 .6, that sort of governs the way in which officers

will engage with budget holders.

So it's really how the finance team will go to around the organisation saying, this is

the way in which the budget is going to be prepared.

So we are expecting you to come up with cost reductions and savings.

We are expecting you to review fees and charges and achieve full cost recovery,

but we will allow for the impact of the pay award and other inflation.

Then more widely you then put on some of the, I suppose, the Council's positions

or the Administration's position that I'm assuming in the MTFS a £5 increase in Council tax.

I'm assuming that we'll deliver affordable and good capital investment.

That's kind of written into the capital strategy that's approved as part of the budget and

that we will progress saving the transformation.

In terms of how that works with Cabinet and the Council, there's a number of levers you've

got to look at that you can pull, which is what do you do just to maintain current service

delivery? What can you do if you're seeking an outcome that is we want a larger cost reduction?

So one of those levers that we can pull is go around the organisation and say, budget

holder, what would your service look like if you add a percentage less year on year?

what outcomes does that put at risk?

There might be some that would say, actually,

if I had 10 percent less, 15 percent less,

I can still deliver those outcomes.

There might be others saying, well, actually,

that's going to put this, this, and this at risk.

Then there's a wider conversation with the

administration in terms of how does that exercise

align with the corporate plan and the priorities

that the administration has set out.

So there's a number of ways that can be achieved.

That's not set out here, but that is part of where we may get to over the coming months

should we not be able to adequately close that budget.

So it is part of an ongoing conversation, particularly with the administration through

Cabinet, but also with budget holders, they're aware of those pressures.

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 1:21:45

David Stanley, Deputy CEO - 1:21:49

Between Cabinet and officers, or just between officers and officers?

So there's a couple of different processes.

So you would expect officers to speak to officers,

particularly around, you've got a budget

for delivering your service.

What are the savings that you could offer?

What are the pressures that are coming through?

But then we caveat that saying, but don't

expect there would be any money to fund those pressures.

We're kind of expecting you to absorb those or highlight

where they're unavoidable.

And then we feed that through to the relevant portfolio holder, heads of service and directors

will be speaking to their portfolio holders.

So it's not done in isolation, but there's clearly a benefit for an officer to officer

conversation, there's a benefit of an officer to member conversation and there's a benefit

for bringing all that together and then the administration having a wider view on how

all that fits together.

But I think the leader may want to come in.

Councillor Mike Evemy - 1:22:46

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:22:49

Yeah, thanks.

Before we go to Mike, everyone would like to come in.

Thank you.

Councillor Mike Evemy - 1:22:53

Thank you, Chair.

So just to add a little bit to what David has said, obviously I've done six budgets

as the portfolio holder for finance and I'm the leader.

So fundamentally, Angus, you're talking about how does, I guess, Patrick and myself essentially

do our jobs.

Patrick is obviously speaking to David very regularly.

And, you know, he's the first sounding board

that David has for things.

But we do have a monthly meeting where Patrick and I meet

with David and the chief executive to look

at how the budget is progressing and the issues that we've got.

And then periodically we come back to cabinet

if we need a political steer for something.

And that's the process.

It's iterative.

We go through that.

Obviously, we've been through that process to get to the papers that are in front of

you this evening.

And that process will continue between now and essentially February when we get the papers

for the budget meeting.

So I guess it's an ongoing discussion with obviously David taking the lead from the officer's

side and Patrick from the member's side.

But obviously Jane and I are quite close on that as well, the importance of this overall

to the council.

Councillor Patrick Coleman - 1:24:10

hope that's useful. Chair, just add some little examples of where other, everybody

has a chance to play and I'm really grateful to the people, I'm sure it was

chaired by David, Councillor Cunningham, the public toilets task and finish group

which acted with the absolute maximum speed you can reason out. You were in and

out in less than six months is my feeling and those recommendations have

been taken on board to a very substantial extent. I'm not saying it's

in six figures but you need every, you need the little bits as well as the big

bits. We've got, we've recently done a polling station review, well we haven't

done it, it's out to consultation. Again people be aware that if we can happily

without upsetting people operate fewer polling stations then we save money

every time there are elections and they're recently been, counting the

general elections, rather lot of elections and I think the other one

which is particularly welcome, and there is a reserve that refers to this, isn't there?

I think somewhere here. The planning appeals. We used to, well, we famously paid

86 ,000 pounds in costs before this administration took place, and some of us

will never forget that figure to our dying day where we were tempted to turn

down something we should have approved, and we were so unreasonable in doing so

that the successful person appealing, company appealing, was able to do us for

86 grand in costs. That's all changed. The Planning Committee has become much more

reasonable. Indeed, we are as often, if we overturn an officer's decision, it's

usually to allow something. Officers want to refuse, which indicates that we're

acting independently responsibly and very often in response to the needs of

not only residents but also businesses. So that has made a big saving

and although I think there is still a Planning Appeals Reserve, the risk factor

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:26:13

attracted by that reserve I think has declined a lot. Thank you, Chair, for that extra bit.

Councillor Claire Bloomer - 1:26:18

No, no, no, thank you. Thank you for adding that. I've got Councillor Bloom has been

very patiently waiting. Thank you, yeah, thank you very much for your reports.

I just wanted to kind of just ask about the policy and practise, the LIFT programme

that was supported by Cotswold District Council, in fact one of the very few councils to take

it up, which I was extremely grateful for. I don't know if you can answer this now and

I appreciate you might not be able to, but I'd really like to know, you know, we were

informed by policy and practise and obviously I've not been to those meetings or involved

in that because I'm no longer the cabinet member, that this would really help some residents

that weren't aware of benefits they were able to claim because ultimately we were all here

to serve our residents and we know the cost of living is having a huge impact on people.

So it would be great to see if that has done what it said it would do

and help support those residents.

And also, a whereabouts cuts and everything.

I do want to just emphasise things such as citizens advice

that Cotswold District Council do support a lot every year I believe.

Do offer a great service to residents and it's used very much so

and I hope people have read the recent Citizens' Advise report.

And obviously things such as the grants that have been given from Cotswold District Council

for things such as the Syrinsester Pantry that has become very successful

in supporting many residents across this area and hopefully can be put out further.

And just sort of on those things, I just want to, you know, it's all very negative, isn't it?

And I just thought it's just nice to actually pick

Councillor Patrick Coleman - 1:27:52

up on some of the positive things we've done.

Thank you.

Well, thank you very much, Councillor Blumer.

And thank you for the work you did in bringing LIFT in,

as it were.

It was the centrepiece of my first budget speech.

One thing's for certain, I shall never get up to six,

like my predecessor.

But the reason it was a centrepiece,

well, I felt it was a centrepiece,

was because the data was so striking

that we'd helped a significant number of people

through this, not quite AI, but sensible use of data.

And we're going to go on doing that.

Now, you've mentioned pantries, so I'll have to disclose

that I am a member of pantry.

Pantry, community pantry in Sirencester,

is not primarily a poverty relief.

It's a waste reduction of waste food.

And I very much enjoy my role of taking home all the cardboard

and the waste food and making certain

that it's appropriately prepared for recycling.

And the third thing is CAB because it was only this morning that I saw that the

CAB is doing a presentation at St. James Place and I made certain I booked for it.

And I've been impressed by CAB almost since the time they were started.

I remember Leslie Crowther opening a CAB in Chippenham in something like 1988.

But yeah they've become more and more professional, they've become more and

efficient and they're always worthy of our support and I particularly take an

opportunity to praise the people who volunteer with CIB as well as the

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:29:22

David Stanley, Deputy CEO - 1:29:25

professionals that keep it going. Thank you. I would just say to

Councillor Brouwerme, we'll get you some details on that and circulate that to members. It has

been a successful programme and I know other Gloucestershire building

authorities, the Shire districts have been interested in that and certainly

and the Dean have taken that up.

So it is something to report back

with how successful that's been.

There is clearly a budgetary consideration

on the lift project, the welfare grants and everything,

but it comes back to that.

What are the choices that members need to make

and is it better to support that element

of the council services rather than something else?

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:30:08

Yes, I'll let you come. I've got questions.

Councillor Cunningham.

Councillor David Cunningham - 1:30:13

Thank you, Madam Chair. You have to give me a bit of leeway because

I forget things. I was going to say, I think this just highlights what we've been talking

about earlier, which is that we need to be very clear about how we prioritise the things

that we will or will not have to switch off, and about how that becomes a key part of when

we're setting the budgets and that the information that we get in previous to that particular

meeting and that budget meeting is where we get the opportunity to stand up and say this

particular aspect of what we do, which is a nice to have, isn't just nice to have for

some people, it's absolutely essential for some people.

So I think getting that information to us, cabinet, council or whatever, is key, but

also making sure that we are fighting the corner for the things that we really care

about.

So I do think it's important that we have that transparency about this is the line at

which we have to say this has to be done.

Below this is the line of the things that we like to do and we need to put a priority

list into that and make sure that we're addressing the right things for the right time.

Thanks.

David Stanley, Deputy CEO - 1:31:32

I'd encourage all members to engage as much as they can with that budget setting process.

So I know it sounds a bit glib, but an open door policy that I've got, so I am available.

I might not be the most responsive at times, but Helen Kelly can nudge me in the most appropriate

way to remind me that I've got something to do.

But certainly in the run up to that February budget setting meeting, I would encourage all members to seek out

myself, other members of CLT from an officer perspective to have that engagement and understand what is

going in the budget reports when they've been published. We do then

run an all -member budget briefing

but I appreciate that's probably at the point of time that a decision may have been taken. So that earlier engagement is key

and certainly for opposition members that probably don't have the same

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:32:31

information that cabinet have that's important. Well thank you. I know that

Councillor Jenkinson has got a proposal for a recommendation. Was that what you

wanted to do now? Well I'd just like to do before we we want to go through the

question I think I've just got sort of a rather scattergun approach, no not

to my questions.

I do have deep concerns about interest rates.

I see what's happening with the Houthis in Saudi Arabia

and all sorts of things in that part of the world.

Things don't seem to be getting any better

at all in the Ukraine either.

And that's obviously going to put pressure additionally

on diesel prices in particular.

And I thank you for letting us know about the pay awards.

I hadn't spotted it.

It's 3 .3 percent.

But on the UBICO staff, you have sort of contingency of an extra 1%.

Would that be 1 % above the 3 .3 %?

It's not, that's, running them all together so hopefully it'll keep up and keep the thing.

The high value council tax surcharge, I know it doesn't come through until 2028

and who knows what the council position or LGR will be then.

But will any of that be actually retained by the Cotswolds?

I'm not sure that that's the case.

No.

You've got the provisional settlement of 27 -28,

and it was going to be reviewed in December.

I think, again, it's hardly likely to be more generous,

but it would be nice to think that it might be.

And the other thing is, has the government allowed any increases

in planning charges?

We've got a lot of planning coming through at the moment,

and that's another area where we might have some income.

And yes, obviously now at the moment it looks

as though we're going to have these local elections in May,

which are again another additional cost,

and it was something you've mentioned on table three,

and the increased costs of the local plan, which actually,

I don't think anybody's pulled up at the moment,

but it is a significant extra cost,

which you weren't anticipating.

So sorry, David and Patrick,

that's rather a lot all in one go.

David Stanley, Deputy CEO - 1:34:51

I'll do it in reverse because my memory is slightly limited.

Local plan costs, that was first, the series of reports

that went through Cabinet Council and this committee

in August, that there was enough funding available

in the local plan reserve to get to submission stage, but there's $420 ,000 of costs post -submission

in the examination stage, and that's what's reflected in the MTFS.

In terms of the pay award, so the assumption is a 3 % pay award. That's been the case for

the last couple of years. We then include in the contingency budget a further 1 % for

the impact of that pay award on UBICO. For the past couple of pay awards, it's been a

fixed percentage, but prior to that, there was a fixed amount that varied the percentage

increase. So it was, I think, one particular year, it was 1 ,925. So up to a certain grade

level, you got the cash sum. Above the cash sum, you got percentage. So for those on the

lower end of the pay scale, there was a bigger percentage increase in the wage bill, so that

was part of the reason for holding some of that in a contingency.

From an internal control point of view, it made more sense that the council held that

and released it if there was a need, rather than it forming part of the base budget for

UBICO.

In terms of interest rates, they've gone up again this evening, so 50 -year money, 6 .4 %

on maturity, one year money 5 .29 % and 10 year money 6 .22%.

That doesn't impact us in terms of any cost,

but that upward uptick I suppose in interest rate expectations

will feed through into the terms of the Treasury management

position.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:37:00

I have to remind me of some of the other points that you made.

It's the high value council tax surcharge which is going to be coming through.

And do you think there's any chance of any extra grant or support money from the government?

David Stanley, Deputy CEO - 1:37:17

I'm not living in hope for this, but I mean one always would like to try for it.

In terms of additional funding through the settlement, my expectation is nothing.

The government set out a three -year funding period.

They indicated that was the minimum level of funding that councils would receive over that period, given choices that MHCLG and the government have made in prior years that haven't favoured district councils and not expecting a change in that position.

high -value council tax surcharge in conversations that I've had with MHCLG

and I'm sure others have had have made the point it is not a council tax

surcharge it is a property tax that will happen to be administered by the local

authority. The total of zero will be retained by the local authority. The

any money raised from the high value council tax surcharge will be retained and utilised

for local government services, but when pressed whether that was new money or replacing existing

money were relatively silent. So there's a lot of concern I think from revenues and benefits

specialists and CFOs that this will be imposed on local authorities from the 1st of April

2028 along with a number of other changes that were announced this morning

in response to the consultation on enforcement of council tax. So the move

from 10 to 12 is your default billing arrangements, changes to the time in

which you can issue demands and remove the ability to pay in instalments. All of

that is going to come at the same time as potentially LGR. So residents will see

on the 1st of April a new council tax bill for a new authority with a logo it

doesn't record the resident may not recognise and whilst I am NOT suggesting

most residents would have sympathy but if you're the owner occupier of a second

home that's worth more than five million pounds or more your council tax bill

could be quite significant not far off the number suggested by Councillor

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:39:35

Cunningham. But also are you allowed to retain any of that for the

administration of doing the collection because it you know there will be

disputes and this that and the other so how is that I mean is that what that

David Stanley, Deputy CEO - 1:39:48

just that cost can fall on us? So there is when the government introduces

anything new and you burdens doctrine so they will assess the amount of money

that councils could reasonably expect be expected to spend on the administration

of this. Being cynical, I would expect the software companies to also pay attention to

that amount and say that the cost of implementing a software change for that magnitude would

Councillor Patrick Coleman - 1:40:13

be equal to, if not greater than, the amount in New Bern's funding.

Just to add one more. If the single Gloucestershire unitary is created, everybody in it has to

be in the same, has to pay the same rate of council tax. Everybody in Band D, for instance.

That's not good news if you live in the two low charging districts in Gloucestershire

which are Tewkesbury and we're not quite as cheap as them but we are second

cheapest people. It's Cotswold so already they're going to be a higher percentage

as far as I can see that when that new council is eventually formed and if it

is a single Gloucestershire because you can't have a unitary council which

charges different amounts in different places as far as I know but in the same

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:41:01

Council to expand. So there's always bad news if you look for it.

I don't feel we're having to look too far this evening. Well, thank you both. I'm just

going to let Angus, Councillor Jenkinson, he's got a recommendation. I don't know what

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 1:41:17

it might be and see what the rest of the committee think of this. Please.

Thank you, Chair and everyone. So it's just my experience that organisations, enterprises

do best when they operate learning processes among senior people to actually learn, well,

what are we doing well, what could we do better, how do we actually do things. And so my recommendation

is that we would encourage the cabinet with officers, sorry, my wife is calling me now

again. To encourage councillors with officers to go through a workshop on

learning and reviewing the processes that they're following and how those

processes could be improved and even if we are moving directly into an LGR

situation the learning could then be transferable into the future. So I think

that it would be my recommendation is that they commission and organise a workshop for

themselves to review what they do and see how they could do it better and what they

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:42:30

can learn from it.

Right, I'm going to, well if anybody's got any views on the committee but I'm also going

to ask whether Simon or Patrick or Mike has any views on that because this is impacting

Councillor Patrick Coleman - 1:42:46

I mean it's our decision, our recommendation, but if you had a view on that.

Well I am aware because I was there that we've had as a cabinet a whatever is it

called, a bit more than a workshop, a guided workshop with our senior officers

with us. Might have been the one called working better together but it was

certainly quite testing.

And I was very glad that we had that one.

And I can't see any reason to not have another,

an appropriate point.

And obviously better focused than the way I'm describing it

because there are, with this world that keeps moving quickly,

there are always insights and new research as well as new

technology and new understanding that should enable us to

continue improving how we work in all aspects of our, particularly strategically, our strategic work.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:43:46

Councillor Mike Evemy - 1:43:49

Thank you. Mike?

Thank you. I don't really understand what Angus is asking for.

And if he's asking, so it's not clear to me, Angus, what you were asking us to do.

from when I was listening quite carefully.

I mean, if you're asking us to review all our processes,

I think that's quite a big ask.

Or if you're asking us to have a workshop as Councillor,

Coleman said we had a half day not that long ago was the cabinet

with the CLT, and one of the key items was budget -wise.

So, I mean to suggest, it's a matter of the committee

to suggest what they think we should be doing.

It's the matter potentially for the if it's a cabinet responsibility, that's for us to work out how we should do it

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 1:44:41

Thank you Mike

um, I was trying to be brief, so

Sorry, and I think I was probably disturbed for reasons you've seen

It's well -run businesses look at what they're doing in order to work out what they're doing well

and how to do more of it and what they're not doing well and to change.

And what we've seen is that we are trying to manage a difficult budget.

We're trying to achieve progressive good change towards achieving the things we really want to

achieve that are priorities, including perhaps some new things or things that we haven't

done well in the past, while at the same time stop doing things that are less important

and so on and manage our budget. It's a tight and difficult job. So the better we do it,

the better. So the process of sitting down together and reviewing the actual process

is being followed whereby decisions are made between cabinet and senior officers on how

we manage the range of things that we do and how we allocate our resources and how we manage

the efficiency of them. How do we actually do that? How is the cabinet working effectively

with offices and offices with cabinets and offices with each other? And so that would

be a relatively small group of people out of all of us who would be looking down and

doing a learning review and taking some lessons out of that, including lessons that would

be transferable into the future about how do you do this best. And without going into

the design of such a thing today, I'm just saying doing that kind of thing as a regular

discipline is normally regarded as a very good idea. And if you're saying you did one

for half a day, very good. But I suspect it's a bigger job than half a day. I don't mean

Councillor Mike Evemy - 1:46:50

it's a week. I just mean, let's say it's a whole day. Come back. Is that alright? So you as a

committee can, I guess, essentially say what you like. What I'm going to say in response to what Agnes has said is I'll have a

conversation with the chief executive. You know, we have a very experienced chief executive who leads our staff. You know, I'm a

we can't always improve, but we've also got a balance out

talking about things and a balance of everyone's time,

what we're seeking to achieve.

I mean, we've outlined, I think that,

we are obviously looking at the finances of the council.

We look at that all the time.

As you said, I think, Angus,

the budget situation doesn't get any easier,

but we've come through budgets.

You know, this is now the eighth year of our administration.

We've passed seven budgets.

And our council is financially solvent and has money in the bank.

So I suppose what I'm hearing is yes, would you like us to do more to,

I'll have to take that away and talk to the chief executive because I'm not going to say here,

yes, I'm going to do what you're asking because I need to understand what the implications

of that are for the offices and for my cabinet members.

and I have to see what the benefit would be of doing something in terms of a more

deep -dive review of how we work because yeah that obviously has its own resource

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:48:28

implications that I need to consider with the chief executive. Right thank you.

Councillor Patrick Coleman - 1:48:31

Did Councillor Coleman, did you want to come in again? Well yes again chair I

want to be a bit more positive about this because as a relative new member of

cabinet although having had many years wisely not being part of cabinets

perhaps what I was really struck at and I don't think Mike knows I'm going to

say this is just how thorough and careful things are worked out to ensure

that we do get the best possible out of each other in terms of trust and

cooperation when all desperate to be the leader thank goodness not much point

really is that if we're going to be abolished but more seriously working

alongside officers. So I could point to first of all to the local plan oversight

board and indeed the climate emergency oversight board which is involves

members and senior officers going into some detail in those areas to ensure

that each understands the other where there's a direction to be set it's clear

members to do it with proper information and indeed the other thing that I knew

very little about until I became a cabinet member was the very careful and

strategic approach to planning cabinet meetings so that before we get to the

cabinet meeting we haven't just had a pre -meeting as you might have before a

full council but we've also had an earlier stage called informal cabinet

and these are very important because people can speak frankly, people can raise

issues, officers are listening carefully, officers get to know us and we get to

them. So I'm not saying there's no further improvements can be made but I

think a lot of credit is due to Mike having developed this I think he does

have the credit as a way of ensuring. I'll move you move just point to one

last example when we were conducting the debate about what form of local

government organisation we wanted there was a patient and thorough process this

council voted unanimously for one option I would not have predicted I don't think

many people would have predicted that even two weeks before.

That's what careful preparation and careful listening

and brilliant thinking in my view, but personal view,

that's what it can give you when people work as a team.

And I include the officers, of course,

in working as part of that team

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:50:44

in their professional way, not being political.

But Claire Bloomer, and then I'm going to ask Simon Harper

who's going to round up what we've discussed

Councillor Claire Bloomer - 1:50:54

and we'll then take a vote on whether we're going to put

forward a recommendation.

Thank you, Chair. It was just more a point of clarity really because I don't really

most respectfully respect, support the idea that Councillor Jenkins has put

forward. Just because we have just sat around the table and spoke about

budgets and costs and pressures on our staff and I think we have got an amazing

amount of staff here but I would like to also offer a recommendation to Councillor

Jenkins that there is as part of the members committee and that I know that there is

budget and there is finance available for further training for staff and I

don't know if something could be done with that I just thought I'd mention it

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:51:34

as a possible solution. Councillor Bloomer. I was going to let Simon come back

then and then if you want to respond Angus please do.

Simon Harper, Officer - 1:51:52

Thank you.

Yeah, thank you.

Thank you, Chair.

So these aren't necessarily recommendations.

They're more comments for cabinet.

So the first one I picked up is the importance of members being aware of what the council

or does, what the mandatory services are,

and then prioritising those services that are discretionary

where some hard decisions might be required.

The second point was around having confidence

that the council will be able to provide the savings

to meet that budget gap.

The third point around the local government reorganisation

and the impact on staff morale and the recruitment of staff.

And then some positive comments around the support

the council already provides through the lift programme,

although notwithstanding that there's gonna be a review

of that and also in terms of the grants

that the council provides to various organisations,

including the citizen advice bureau.

Okay, so those are the main points

and then it's just picking up the final one

in terms of this workshop or providing funds

through I think, Councillor Boomer,

you're thinking through the member development budget,

aren't you, in terms of providing training for members

so they better understand the council's finances

and services?

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:53:30

yeah yeah Simon thank you for summing it up like that I also ask if Councillor

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 1:53:39

Dinkins has got any more to add. Well I'm assuming that Councillor Bloomers

recommendation has got nothing to do with mine and I'm assuming that the

point that you make Simon on that again has nothing to do with mine and I take

the I take the view that since I haven't been understood having spoken twice I'll

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:53:58

leave it at that.

Councillor Nikki Ind - 1:54:01

Councillor End. Sorry yes I was just gonna say I did a very good LGA online

course to do with finance when I was first looking at budgets and if I've

ever you know you can tap all of us can tap into that. What I'm hearing from

Councillor Evermy and Councillor Coleman is that there's already been a half a

thorough workshop that's not to say that people can't continue to improve things

but given what we've just talked about it costs and things I just don't see how

time and effort spent on repeating what you've just done is going to be

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:54:38

Councillor Jon Wareing - 1:54:44

worthwhile. Does anybody else have any other views to add? So yes, Councillor Waring.

So I have some sympathy with what Councillor Jenkinson is talking about in relation to

the culture of great organisations. I'm just not comfortable that this is the forum to

be making a recommendation that seems so systemic to the way the organisation operates. So I

wouldn't support a recommendation despite being in sympathy with the general idea.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:55:13

Thank you for that. I mean I do think that Councillor Bloomer's observation that it's

good for all of us to have more training and maybe another member's preaching on

it. It is such a crucial thing and it is going to be crucial for the rest of the

term of this council however long that may be. So maybe we could just put a

recommendation on the fact that we would and that's for everybody not just OLS.

I know that there are other meetings and things, but it doesn't quite, it's not the same engagement

and things like full council and things.

And it really is so important.

And I think there's lots of people who have got things they'd like to add.

So are we happy with the recommendations as Simon has read out?

With that added proviso that we just feel that all members should be more appraised.

And I'm aware it seems that the cabinet and the senior officers are working hard.

And of course, because they're working to a degree behind the scenes, we don't always

see all that they're doing.

So we didn't know about the half -day away day for the Cabinet.

So thank you.

I'm in trouble right now.

Thank you.

You're telling me off.

Okay, so are we happy that we go forward?

We don't have to vote on that, do we?

They're comments.

Thank you very much.

Right, lovely.

So now we go on to the next item.

It's six o 'clock.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:56:35

We could have a break now because we are almost on the two hours.

If everybody would like to have a 10 minute break, thank you very much.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:56:48

Welcome back everybody.

We have had a 10 minute break.

We go on with the next item,

which is artificial intelligence update.

And obviously this is a topic which has been much in the news

and I believe it will be fascinating how CDC will be

using AI to enhance its services to residents whilst

at the same time making sure it is sufficiently well controlled

and understood.

A cabinet member for climate change and digital is not able

to attend, Mike McCann, because he's on holiday.

So John Charlton, Chief Technology Officer of Publica, will be introducing this and then I hope we have lots of questions. Thank you.

Officer - 1:57:36

All right, did that work? It did.

Hi, so thank you for the invite, Chair. You've stolen the first couple of lines of my opening address there.

So this report provides an update on the Council's measured approach to adopting artificial intelligence.

For those of you who don't know me, my name is John Chorton.

I'm the Chief Technology Officer employed by Publica.

I worked for Cotswold District Council

for many years before Publica existed.

I work across four councils.

I'm responsible for the core IT services and also

at Yubico who were here earlier.

Some of you will know me from other meetings,

usually Audit Committee with regard to cybersecurity.

And as I said, I look after the technology

and platforms at Cotswold.

So I just want to sort of apologise in advance.

I don't know all the specifics of AI adoption at each

of the councils I look after, but I will certainly find out

and find out, you know, the answers

for any questions you might have.

What I will say is that Cotswolds,

we're at an incredibly early stage, but having said

that we're actually ahead of the other councils

that I look after.

Progress so far includes basic staff training, the launch of AI champions,

which is actually just 10 days ago.

We have a limited rollout of Microsoft co -pilot AI licences, but we do have the establishment

of an AI board to oversee the proposed uses.

As I said, the report highlights emerging opportunities within council services

and business systems while recognising the need to manage risks around the accuracy,

bias, data protection, cybersecurity, cost and environmental impact.

And as the chair also said, I don't think a single day goes by without AI being mentioned

in the news.

Obviously, as you know, the storeys are both very positive and very negative.

This morning, I think, Councillor Cunningham just mentioned to me a second ago, I woke

up to hear the interview from the president of Microsoft, Brad Smith, and to quote Mr.

Smith, he said, milk and washing machines are currently more regulated than AI, which

I thought was really interesting given that we're here tonight and you've asked to speak

about AI. So you're definitely ahead of the game there. I've been in technology for about

30 years. I've seen all sorts of technology changes. I've never seen a change as rapid

as this. It's never -ending. It does not stop. Just to give you an idea, since the first

draught of this report and today, we've seen an awful lot of changes to Microsoft's AI

tools, and we've seen products come and go in the blink of an eye over the last 12 months.

I don't know what's coming next with regard to AI, but I do know the following. I know

that AI will become part of every modern council

and company in the country.

It's just going to happen regardless.

It can be used to speed up processes.

We've seen that already.

It can help officers do more.

It definitely helps me on a daily basis.

But it needs to be implemented in conjunction with the reviewing

and changing processes.

You can't just AI for AI's sake.

We need to be very careful of that.

We shouldn't forget though that it will also come with an increase of demand against our public services.

So just to give you an idea, we've already seen more AI agents, we can talk about those more later if you like,

coming and connecting to our council websites than we do humans.

So that's over 50 % of the requests are AI agents now.

This would be people asking, you know, the AI on their phone, you know,

what time is the overview and scrutiny committee

at Cotswold District Council tonight,

their AI agent will come and ask us

rather than looking at the website.

I know that AI is not a cheap technology.

It's not cheap.

There will be a price to pay for adoption.

It's still highly subsidised.

So all the AI that you use at home

and you're not paying for,

they will find a way to make you pay for it in the future.

And they're certainly finding a way for us to make us pay

for what we're already using.

I know that we will see different types

of AI models coming.

So in the future, we're going to see things like small language

models running on personal devices

rather than these big, what they call,

frontier models running in big data centres.

Things are going to change.

And we're going to see different types of models used.

I'm happy to talk about that.

But finally, I definitely know that we

need to make sure that humans remain

in control of any of the decision making,

with particular to the sort of bias and happy to talk

about bias a bit more.

So thank you for your interest in inviting me.

As I mentioned a moment ago, you're definitely ahead

of the majority of the world in terms of asking questions.

And but just going back, I won't be able to answer all

of the operational questions

because I don't know all the details.

And but I will definitely find out and answer those questions.

It's very difficult with all the different councils

to know the ins and outs of each and every way that they are being used.

Thank you.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:03:02

Thank you very much.

It would be interesting to see that very thing you just mentioned, that each council is picking

up on different bits of AI and how you are going to provide the service from public on

that.

Councillor Jon Wareing - 2:03:17

I am going to let, please do that in due course, but Councillor Waring first.

Thank you, Chair.

So the report anticipates, and you've made reference to it,

that AI will reduce administrative work and improve

productivity whilst recognising the need for people to cheque

the results.

But it doesn't really talk about whether the cognitive demands

of validating AI output will offset those gains.

Because one of the things that's really interesting,

given AI currently is essentially a plausibility

generating machine. It doesn't necessarily generate truth. It generates

stuff that is very plausible. And particularly when something needs to be

accurate, you have to spend a lot of time reading what it's created and applying

human judgement because it can't apply human judgement. So I'm not totally

bought into the idea that AI is the productivity boost that people are

promoting. I think it's amazing and it has real utility but it has to be used

in a very measured way and the user will, in my views, tend to spend more time than

they would have done without AI checking what has been generated and I think that

introduces some complexity into the debate in terms of the way the council

Council uses it because we heard earlier, and it was on paragraph 5 .32, the first bullet

point, Council identifies AI and digitalization as important parts of its future savings programme.

So my question, there's two questions.

What evidence supports the productivity assumptions behind the Council's AI strategy?

And how will the Council establish whether AI actually reduces the total effort involved

in completing a piece of work, taking account of the time

and expertise needed to cheque, correct,

and rework the output while maintaining

or improving its quality and effectiveness.

Officer - 2:05:22

Oh, gosh.

Okay. So I think that's where this council has chosen

to establish the AI board to make sure that every use

of AI goes through some sort of rigorous process to make sure

that it is producing a return on investment.

I 100 % agree with what you said.

We suffer from it already.

What I will say is that where we're deploying, and again,

it's such early days, but where we are deploying any kind of AI,

where it's being able to use our information to produce output,

that's being deployed in a way where it's limited on how it can respond.

So we make sure that it's limited to only respond using

specific council data rather than being able to hallucinate

and go off and, well, I'll just say it, sort of start making

things up to just to please its human master and just bring back

the information.

So we do make sure that whenever we're deploying these things,

and again, they keep, their names are changed every week.

They used to be GPTs and now sometimes agents or bots

or whatever when we're just deploying these.

And as I said, we've got about three at Cotswold in test,

not deployed yet.

They are limited to only use our information within our data

protection sort of environment.

So we don't let them hallucinate.

I fully accept what you're referring to.

We see it already with the amount of information that's

coming back.

So I'm sorry that doesn't quite answer your question,

but I can go back and find out more.

but the AI board is there, the chief executive is on the AI board, the leader is on the AI board,

the portfolio holder for digital and climate is on there,

and finance are on there too to make sure that we don't waste any money.

Councillor Jon Wareing - 2:07:18

I think it's really important that those questions are thought about maybe by the board,

because you're right, AI is here and it's going to be part of everything,

But I suspect in ways that people haven't really

anticipated, but I'm seeing a lot in client organisations

where you're seeing a degradation of people's

mental wellbeing because of the cognitive overload that

they're getting from this time saving technology.

You'll get, it's what I refer to as the principle of

displaced intensity.

So you actually reduce the time to generate something,

but the cost is born elsewhere downstream.

And I think it's going to be massive.

so we need to be as a council really really prudent in how we take this

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:08:08

Councillor Tony Slater - 2:08:12

forward. Thank you. Is Councillor Slater please? I think I'm perhaps slightly

more enthusiastic than Councillor Waring on all of this. Perhaps a little bit less

guarded maybe but my own personal experience recently has been very

positive. I've input some details that I wanted. One was a complaint letter and one was a project

report. And what came out was extremely comprehensive and thorough. So I'm wondering where we've

got specific narrow process driven outputs that we need, which are based on facts like

planning for example, it's based on the national planning framework, rule this, rule that,

it comes in priorities.

Is there any way we could use that, use AI in that sort of environment to produce an

initial report, not something that goes straight to the public, but something that the planning

officer can then review and edit, given their skills and knowledge.

So not press a button and send it out the door, but press a button, get the report.

The planning officer could be doing something more useful with that time saved once they've

Officer - 2:09:39

reviewed the report and validated it.

Yes, absolutely.

So I haven't personally seen the product yet, but it's just come to the AI board for approval.

It's been approved by the CLT at Cotswold.

This is a product called Xylo .ai, which is a planning system or platform.

The way I understand how it works technically, the way it works technically is it reaches

into public access, which you will go and look at the planning reports.

It pulls that information.

It also has links over into some of the mapping functions and that sort of stuff, and it brings

forward a draught report for the officers.

And there is a business case that's gone forward to the CLT to purchase that and move it.

been in pilot for about three or four months, I understand.

Technically, we've been making sure it's secure and safe.

And then the officer gets that back and is able to then use

that report and then move it on in the system.

So that's one of the first times we've seen that used.

That's a pilot being done here at Cotswold.

And you mentioned collaboration.

That's also being done at West Oxfordshire as our partner.

And we, I mentioned in the report,

we have a collaboration forum across Gloucestershire.

And that will be taken forward into that as well and shown.

So it's up for review with the AI board.

I'm not sure if it's being approved via email or at the

next board meeting, which I believe is in November,

but the intention is to move forward with that.

Councillor Tony Slater - 2:11:06

So just in the report, there's just a fleeting reference

to opportunities for cost savings and efficiencies.

Is following that pilot, is there any indication on how

Officer - 2:11:26

much efficiency would be available to us?

So I think I need to come back to you with the exact figures because I don't know them

off the top of my head, but I do know, unless Deputy Chief Executive wants to jump in, but

I do know that the potential savings outweigh the cost.

David Stanley, Deputy CEO - 2:11:42

If I may, Chair, so yes, I, corporate leadership team did review the business case and the

the outcomes from the pilot that was produced.

The cost of the Zylo software, 48 ,000 pounds.

I did trot out a rather poor joke saying we should deploy it

on mobile devices and call it the Zylophone app.

I couldn't resist.

There are estimated savings because the time taken to do

some of those planning reviews would reduce,

but you're getting into what used to be referred

which is Gersh and efficiency savings,

the way you're doing more with the same resource

or being able to do more with less.

We need to put this in place and take that upfront cost,

make that investment in service, and then peer review those

results in terms of efficiency.

Are we going to suddenly say to the planning service,

You've delivered 25 percent more efficiency,

therefore you can do it with fewer staff.

It's the same type of question that happens in finance.

So we use AI to help us with extracting information out

of the financial system, interpreting it,

and putting it into a more user -friendly format.

Dragos does that in the finance team.

That enables finance then to move away from the

administrative burden more onto the value -added task

so they can then challenge the budget holders,

interrogate what's going on, get underneath it.

Over time, there may be opportunities to do that,

but I don't think that's the stage we're at.

I was at a SIPFAR event last November where,

as a poor example, the head of a hospital trust

in the Northwest that has 28 ,000 employees

said they had deployed AI to help them with their

payroll forecasting.

They had something like 100 management accountants,

asked them to do a forecast, it came up with a

straight line forecast for their pay.

AI did it in a matter of minutes and came up with

this wavy up down line that was much closer to the

actual result.

My response in my head was, you've got the wrong

accountants, it's not AI.

And I think that's what we need to look at.

What is it AI is doing?

It's assisting, not replacing.

I think very much in this silo case study, business case that

we had through CLT, we need the proof of concept that's come

through from the trial.

We then need to apply that because this is only indicative

and it will depend on the complexity of what

we're looking at.

It won't replace that judgement that will be made.

You know, I could ask AI, I did ask AI to write some of that

report that you reviewed.

I wouldn't ask it to write the Section 25 statement.

I might ask it for ideas, but it's not unfortunately for members going to replace some of those

key offices, but it might allow over time a switch of what they do that adds value that

in turn makes the council more cost efficient because it's not spending as much time doing

the stuff that doesn't matter.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:15:01

Thank you.

Does anybody live, well actually following up on that sort of question, it was a question

alluded to, some of the Microsoft sort of has new programmes, withdraws them and

things. So what is the licence for Zylo? What is the length of licence?

David Stanley, Deputy CEO - 2:15:24

Because they do have to pay for upgrades no doubt as well. I shall

speak to Helen Martin who's the director for Communities in Place and get that

information because that's been run with Harris and Boley in terms of the trial

that was undertaken.

I could read all the pages of the CLT business case

that got out in front of me, but it may take some time.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:15:43

But we'll come back to you with a response.

And what I feel is that it's all our planning officers are

working jolly hard.

They've got a very big caseload on.

That it may actually help them do more of the caseload,

because we are finding it difficult to recruit new ones

anyway.

So I don't think it's going to be any planning officer is

going to be out of a job there's a lot of work for them to do so this may just

Councillor David Cunningham - 2:16:12

help them and make it easier for them so hopefully that's it. I've got Councillor

Cunningham please. Thank you Madam Chair I mean I think I think John's absolutely

right because sometimes the stuff that comes back is from AI is simply wrong I

think the trick is that you always have to click on the links that it shows you

it's got the information from to see where they are I'm not that keen on

trusting people's opinions in Facebook about what things are or are not. I do

think it has a place here in the council for things like processing and sieving

through the responses we've had to the local plan for instance to pick out

themes and to say these are things that we think are general things and can be

used to clump those together. This is a bit of a off the beaten track but I'm

I'm going to get it in anyway.

I think that the issue here is that for the planning officers

when they're using it, it is going

to look at planning applications through a very

specific regulation -led lens.

And the issue we have is that the purpose of the planning

committee, which was to look at things

through a more general lens, a human lens,

and to advocate for planning balance,

is going to be lost with the new regime that

comes in on the first of November that says that officers, if they're using this, will

be making very specific only regulation -led decisions.

And I think that's a bit of a danger.

The fact that we're losing that ability to get members to look at recommendations is

going to be poorer for it, is my point.

I absolutely agree that there is a way for AI to be used to quickly sieve through previous

reports, previous applications, to see if there is a theme or whatever. I think

that's got a place. But I don't think it has a place in making a

decision in some instances, not all, but in some instances has a subjective

element that misses that human touch. And I think that's what we have to be

careful with.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:18:20

Councillor Michael Vann - 2:18:21

I welcome the fact that councillors are going to be briefed and this is something which

I think is going to be good for us.

day after day I read the self -congratulatory stuff which comes out

it's just verbiage of low quality and for us to be able us as councillors to

be able to be briefed I think is it's very welcome.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:19:00

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 2:19:08

Councillor Neill. Thank you, Chair. Thank you very much for

the remarks, the briefing you gave earlier on. My overall impression of the report and

the way it's being adopted is very favourable. I like what is being proposed. I'm supportive

I think it's essential that we do implement AI.

I think that it's important that we take care as we do it, obviously.

So I think the creation of a board in that way is a good thing.

The board has the right people on it, as far as I can see, or the right positions on it,

so that's good.

What expertise, what training is being provided to those members, or has been provided to

those members. There are clearly some who, like yourself, who are already expert and

competent in this field, or relatively speaking, but you have to be, presumably, you are a

principal expert on this subject and guiding others, so you need to be advancing and others.

So perhaps you could just say something about how we make sure that this board, which is

the right people and they have the right kind of general competence and so on, are able

to stay abreast of the issues that are involved.

A related small matter, well not related,

but an unrelated small matter is I'm not sure whether the,

whether compliance is included when you talk

about planning or not.

And if it is not, can you say why compliance is not included

in the AI plan?

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:20:49

Councillor Mike Evemy - 2:20:52

I'm not sure the the pilot which we haven't yet agreed signed off to sort of

go out roll out with that was on development management not on planning

enforcement for having having read the information about it so as the committee

you'll be aware there's a separate piece of work

that our new person leading on that is doing.

So, you know, he may come back and make recommendations

about appropriate tools to assist the work that he does,

but that's a, we're waiting for him obviously

to make any recommendation on that.

In answer to your point, Angus, about training,

well, we have the cabinet member is an expert.

He's a professional AI professional.

So, you know, and obviously we have John

as our professional officer.

I see, whilst we haven't had any training, I'm going to do a few

things about AI, but I see my role as on there together

with the chief executive, you know, as somebody who is looking

at the service that we provide to our residents.

Obviously, the chief executive is looking at it

from a staff perspective as well as for the residents.

So I think we have that perspective which we bring to those, that meeting and

obviously we have a range of different skills that come forward but yeah

certainly could take that back. I mean yeah whether it's difficult to train on

something that's constantly changing but obviously we yeah obviously we have our

Officer - 2:22:30

officers who are working on it but John might have something to add to that. Yeah

I was just going to add I mean we have had discussions in those forums and in

other senior leader forums about AI bias, hallucination, all of the risks.

So I'm quite comfortable that the senior people in those rooms have been through

various presentations of mine and others.

And I know that the LGA have been doing a lot in that area too.

And I've been quite impressed just how quickly they've understood

things like bias in AI models and the risks around that sort of thing,

which has been mentioned here.

Councillor Mike Evemy - 2:23:09

So I'm fairly comfortable with that from that point of view.

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 2:23:15

Just about, yeah, you did train us, give us a little bit of a training session when we're in Cheltenham, I remember now. Yeah.

I'd just say, obviously, I'm aware that Mike, for example, is very expert in the field,

but if you have one expert in the board and everybody's just following that one expert, it ceases to be a board.

So that doesn't work, and I'm sure you're aware of that.

I think what's useful is to actually understand the underlying architecture of AI and to understand

how a large language model actually functions and works.

Because then when you understand why, if you like, the hallucinations and so on take place,

it makes a difference.

And it's very hard to be competent in any field without understanding the underlying

architecture of it.

That would be the one thing that I would suggest you might want to take advantage of.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:24:02

Thank you for that. I've got a Councillor in.

Councillor Nikki Ind - 2:24:11

Nikki. Yes, sorry.

Thank you chair. Yeah, I'm just really

pleased to see that we're being proactive about this because it's coming whether we like it or not.

And I think we need to be ahead of it. Sort of adding to what

Councillor Van and Councillor Jenkinson have both said about it's great that we've got

an AI board. The other thing I was pleased to see was the AI champions and I think that's

going to be integral for our staff and it's going to be really important that they know

who those people are that they can go to because you know something like this is just as you

say changing constantly you know you need to know where you can go who you can talk

to and I really like the idea that we've got AI champions that that our staff

know about and we need to make sure they know who they are, where they are and how

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:25:01

they contact them. Thank you. I just had another question on the who's a user as

defined here costing 220 pounds a head and how much are the anticipated savings

in time and efficiency, as noted in 11 .4.

The cost of implementation and maintenance of AI

might outweigh the cost benefits.

I think you sort of touched on this, but there is this,

it's such a new thing, isn't it,

that you can get dragged along this road

and you suddenly realise it's sort of incremental costs

and Microsoft say, oh, well, if you're doing that,

we want to charge you extra for this thing,

and da -da -da, and how many people are going to be using it?

Oh, well, we're going to charge a bit more.

Officer - 2:25:46

So, who is this user who is £220 a head?

Thank you.

So, yes, we're well spotted and you're actually ahead of the game, so that's again one of

the things that's changed in the last couple of weeks.

Microsoft have, I think it's briefly mentioned in there, have introduced usage based usage.

So at the moment the way it's defined in there as a user is an individual, so I would be

a user in there.

And so just stepping back, all of our officers have access and

counsellors via the Microsoft licences to a basic AI

that's built into the Microsoft stack.

And what Microsoft have done recently is that they've taken

that away from large organisations.

So the county council, for example,

no longer have access to that basic free licence.

We still are small enough to have access.

I have no idea how long that will remain.

You know, Microsoft could be plotting somewhere right now

to take it away.

That only gives you access to certain amounts.

And also, it's very much on demand.

So for example, if that AI model is busy,

or they might just not respond.

So sometimes we get help desk calls where they're saying,

and we're using our free, in quotes, Microsoft licence, but it's not working, well, that's

because it's busy, it's doing something else and they just throw the traffic away and they're

not interested. So we have a next level above that, it used to be called copilot premium.

That's now actually got renamed last week, I think it's now called copilot maybe chat

or home, copilot home. So that's been renamed copilot home and that's going to become your

basic licence and that's what we're referring to here as a user. So for

example Deputy Chief Executive David would be as a user, I'm a user and we have

about 20 of those spread across Cotswold which we are paying for. The County

Council for example because they no longer have the free licence have

entered into an agreement to give that basic licence to everybody and that's

across the board and they're rolling out their programme but we're getting feedback

through the collaboration.

So that's a user.

Now we have, now all of the good stuff,

if I can put it like that,

is slowly being moved into the pay -as -you -go model

away from the basic user.

So the basic user, which used to be the premium user,

is now the basic home user.

So we get to summarise documents and summarise emails

and all that sort of stuff.

And you can do a quick spreadsheet calculation

and a dashboard.

But if you want to do something like have it automatically reply

to your portfolio holders' emails, then you suddenly have

to move into the next band.

And at the moment, we've got

that all switched off in our environment.

So nobody can do it.

It doesn't stop them putting in requests to do it,

but nobody can do it at the moment.

And I think it's just, it's really interesting,

and we were talking about this earlier today.

It's really, really interesting that even in the period

over the last three weeks where we've been switching

that off, they have moved the lower limits of what a minimum pay -as -you -go model might

look like. And the minimum limit, should we decide it, so for example, if David phones

up and says I would like to use this, the minimum limit is £40 a month a user that

we can configure and control. And it's only going to go north. So that's what's going

on at the moment.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:29:26

And sorry, your first, second part of your question, sorry.

Well, that sort of really answers it, because I was saying

about how we control it.

And the problem is, it's going to be very difficult to control

because they keep changing those little goalposts

and moving it up.

And just a lot of sort of like, okay, so if I was,

I'm on my Cotswolds district website and I have access user,

but I'm actually having a lot

of fun doing all sorts of things I perhaps shouldn't be doing.

How much is that? No, no, no.

I'm not really, nothing really terrible,

but using it for my own personal whatever it is

because I've got the access.

How much is that restricted?

Because surely it should be.

I promise you I'm not taking enough to probably get into it anyway.

But it's just the controlling of the people

Officer - 2:30:15

who've got the access are using it appropriately.

So it is controlled.

It works with inside our data boundaries,

inside our Microsoft world.

If you're, when you're using it, you'll have a look,

there's a little green tick, and that says it's working

with inside the environment.

But because you're on the free, in quotes, licence,

you can't do all that much with it.

It's kind of limited.

So it will have access, it will be able to go and sort

of do web lookups and all of that sort of thing,

but you won't be able to do much.

You wouldn't be able to kick off a process, for example,

to go and request information

from a different system or anything like that.

No, and that takes me back actually, you know, to what we were talking about with regard

to training. I mean, that's where we've been talking to the senior people in there about

guardrails and all of the things around these things that most people don't understand.

And I'm fairly confident the AI board understands that, the guardrails and the models and stuff.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:31:16

Yes, Councillor Slater, I mean that to me is really where one doesn't want to open,

you know, the genie gets out of the bottle or whatever and whatever, it is really important

that it is controlled in that sense and sometimes people may not realise that they've gone

beyond where they should have the boundaries but as long as those you have got guardrails

it sounds that's and keeping them up to date. Councillor Slater.

It's following on from that.

Councillor Tony Slater - 2:31:41

So we've read about these agents going a bit rogue and breaking out and hacking competitors'

websites.

Has anybody tested our boundaries to ask AI nicely if it would circumnavigate the security

Officer - 2:31:56

and go in and do something that it shouldn't?

So we don't really have AI like that in use.

I mean, I could say an awful lot about the press reports

about breaking out of boundaries.

I mean, that's pretty standard cybersecurity stuff

if you ask a professional.

We've been doing it for years with different things.

And I don't think that's any surprise to any of us.

And, you know, I realise I'm on the public record here,

but I would say that's probably got as much to do with, you know,

or any publicity as good publicity

and that sort of thing.

And it was very interesting how one

of the big companies got hacked one week

and then the next door were hacking people one week

and then next week the others were hacking it and, you know,

and I couldn't possibly comment, but I'm sure that's all

about IPOs and things like that rather than cybersecurity.

But we, from a cybersecurity point of view,

we obviously do our annual tests and all of this type

of thing is all included in annual tests

and we also have active scans and systems running 24 -7.

So, and, you know, it's not the AI,

that side of AI isn't new for us.

We have been using the AI in the cybersecurity space for a long time.

It is not something we are particularly worried about at this moment in time.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:33:15

David Stanley, Deputy CEO - 2:33:19

David Stanley.

Thank you, Chair.

I think the whole issue around cost is an important one to bear in mind.

So the report sets out the 220 pounds per user.

If you rolled that out to all staff,

let's say there's 100 staff, 220 pounds times 100,

but then Microsoft put the fee up,

are you then going to take that functionality away

from the staff who you've provided that tool for to become

more efficient, or are you going to have

to keep paying that cost?

It's something John and I were talking

about prior to this meeting.

In terms of, I suppose, ethics, the council

has an AI policy that, according to AI,

because I just put it into AI, was formally

adopted in April 2026.

And that's got around being ethical,

use of the public good, transparent, explainable,

so on and so forth.

I think it's understanding how we're going to use it.

So I did ask AI, because there's an article on the Municipal

Journal that was published today.

It's behind a paywall.

Could they extract it out of the paywall?

No was the answer.

But it's written by Emma Foy who works for TechOne,

which is a software supplier based in Australia

that was extolling the benefits of how you could use AI

to improve UK council services.

So there's within the setup we've got,

there's some controls around that.

But it's making sure that staff and those other users of AI

within the council are following that AI policy

Councillor David Cunningham - 2:34:54

that was adopted by the council back in April.

Sorry, but don't we simply have a cost to savings, profit and loss, as soon as it passes

that line then we have to make adjustments?

David Stanley, Deputy CEO - 2:35:09

Isn't that the easiest way to do that?

We do that for everything else.

Yeah, and if I give you some hypothetical numbers, if the licencing cost of using an

AI tool is $50 ,000, it generates a more efficient service of $100 ,000, then you take the net

saving, then the cost of that increases to 200 ,000.

How do you then make that efficient gain,

if that makes any sense?

The cost of doing and staying where you were has gone up,

but you're not necessarily able to get those cost efficiencies

out without revisiting the way in which AI is deployed.

In order to catch up with that cost pressure,

you've got to become more and more efficient with the way

you're utilising AI if you've rolled it out on a grand scale. I think the

approach that's set out in here by providing that premium licence to a

smaller number of people initially allows you to contain that cost pressure.

If you rolled it out to everyone then you don't have that same control and

exposure is more broad and then you've got to look at those choices. Does

Councillor David Cunningham - 2:36:17

everyone have it, how are people using it? The problem is that this will end up getting

equated to full -time for you. You'll be looking at FTE units versus the efficiency of them

versus the cost of the licences. But switching AI off or on is a lot easier to do than replacing

FTEs that you may have taken to Nikki's point earlier. You've got all these people who are

unsure what's happening about their employment.

We've got LGR, we're also talking about efficiencies

we're getting through AI, where we will be able

to do things much quicker, and that's always going

to equate back, unfortunately, into an FTE equation.

And then we end up in a situation where Microsoft

realised this, pushed the port, or other brands

are available, I'll do my BBC bit,

it gets to the point where they push the price up,

push the price up, knowing that you may have reached

the point that you're talking about where it's very difficult to switch it

off because you come so used to those efficiencies and you're not in a

position to increase the FTE account anymore even because perhaps they're not

there. I think you just need to be we need to be very cognizant of that

especially in terms of the whole thing about the fantasies and you know

hallucinations it has about answers. I've got quite difficult to ignore when we're

dealing with people's, whether people are due a rent rebate or not, or whether they're

someone's due a particular level of aid from the council, because an AI thinks that it

better report someone that said that they don't fit the criteria. I mean, these are

decisions that only a human should really be ultimately making, in my opinion.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:37:57

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 2:37:59

Councillor Jenkins.

So I used to work for IBM.

I ran a tech business.

I advised tech companies on tech transformation for years.

I would say that back in the early 1980s, the IBM director,

responsible for IBM in the UK, did a round in IBM saying how

they'd done the analysis that said that by the year 2000,

everybody in the UK would be able to work a three -day week,

and our cost of living would have gone up.

That turned out to be an inaccurate forecast,

and what we ended up doing is working harder than ever before.

And part of that harder than ever before

is the expectations went up

as to how much individuals should do on everything.

Back in 1980, I wrote down some things on a piece of paper.

My PA typed it out, we put it on an overhead projector, and that was my presentation.

A few years later, I was spending hours creating fancy PowerPoint presentations.

So efficiency actually went down.

With the next generation, when the internet came along, we have a similar storey.

And it won't take up time, but I was involved in how this was going to transform the ability

of organisations to do things, but what actually happened is that the expectations went up.

This is the so -called Red Queen issue, and you start running faster and faster in order

to stand still, and it costs you more and more to do it.

I have every expectation that exactly the same thing will happen.

Now, this doesn't mean that we can't ... We mustn't do AI because otherwise it will be

a waste, but what I am saying is that the transformations of our society as a result

of this that include the dumbing down of intelligence in some areas and include the fact that all

sorts of things will become routine but cost us a lot more to do it.

And the routine process whereby we know that at the moment AI is completely running at

a loss and its climate effects are devastating, that the whole economic model absolutely has

to change because it's completely unsustainable.

So we really need to be very cautious about how

we go about this.

We have to make the journey.

But just because of that, we have to be very, very cautious.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:40:34

Thank you.

Did anybody want to come back on that?

No.

Well, I'm just going to think of,

and Simon will have a thing, but summing up

from what we've discussed here, it's

really being, welcoming that it's a useful tool, used well, used with care,

used with discretion and the safeguards that have been mentioned. But it

should be, its position should be kept constantly under review and made sure

Simon Harper, Officer - 2:41:12

that it's not running the show and we're running it basically. So I don't know,

the time that you want to.

Yeah, thank you, Chair.

This isn't a report that's getting referred to cabinet.

So I think as Waren mentioned, potentially

the conversations here and the summary being referred onto

the AI board, so they're aware of it.

And particularly those concerns that

were mentioned around validating results, productivity

around AI, the cognitive overload that results from AI,

Those sorts of things can be referred to the AI board,

just so they're aware that there's been a member

discussion around it.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:41:54

Everybody here would be, and I should have picked up

if it wasn't going to cabinet.

But as long as it's, we are discussing it.

And I hope this is useful.

And I hope that you will keep us in touch with it,

because it is transformative used in the right way,

and the best results.

So thank you very much.

Thank you.

And then we go on to our next item,

which is the update from Gloucester County Council

Scrutiny Committees.

We only have one of these since our last meeting.

Because Gloucester, Jefferson, and actually, you're

probably going to change this title,

because it changes all the time.

The Gloucester Economic Climate Change and Waste Scrutiny

has produced the full report, which I hope you've seen.

And you can certainly interrogate him on that.

For Hosk, Delis Neal didn't have, there was nothing to

report from the previous thing.

And I did touch on the LGR Joint Exclusionary Panel,

which we're now having a meeting in November after all.

And let's hope we got some news this week,

which would be good to know.

So, Angus, have you got anything you'd like to add

from your report?

Anybody want to ask any questions?

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 2:43:07

Thank you, Chair.

I think it was really interesting to find that at the beginning of the meeting, there was this remark that was made.

We spent so much time discussing and critiquing the terms of reference, we realised eventually that the terms of reference must be wrong.

And so they have been updated and changed and they are a much more sensible lot.

Waste, I think waste was floating around and needed a home, so it got put in.

It does have some significance to economic aspects, so there it is, it's in there.

Climate change is clearly pretty important to the economy, so it got dumped in there

as well.

So it's now gone from being, at one end, you know, we started as a very sensible economic

strategy, then we got downgraded to just reviewing the city region board, but was it cowbell?

county -wide or not county -wide or what.

And then it's been upgraded to beyond what it was originally

at the beginning.

So that's quite a saga.

Anyway, there we are.

The biggest item of the, and contentious item,

was about food and farming.

I made a bit of a report about that.

It's contentious because in a sense it's dealing with a very

sensitive issue. I mean, there are a lot of farmers who are highly stressed about the

present situation, to put it simply. They are highly stressed for a variety of reasons.

Their economic situation is in trouble. And they're not so stupid that they haven't realised

that the ways of doing things are not sustainable. So I don't think there are very many farmers

There are maybe farmers who are saying, well, I'm pretty old

and I can sustain the way things are for a little while,

but generally farmers know that something has to change.

And everybody knows that farmers have to change,

but exactly what changes and how to make it is a difficult area.

And it's sensitive to discuss and it's our role

in supporting it, given that it has

to be limited, is also difficult.

So we spent some time discussing that and it was very interesting and I made some comments about that.

This obviously refers back to the fact that we had a food and farming motion here that played in.

There was another motion that also took place in the county that played in.

That also played into the fact that there'd been a previous generation of conversation with the county about its economic strategy.

So that was a biggish item. There's a new chair. On the whole it was an interesting committee meeting.

some old lags who'd been there through the years,

and some new ones.

So it's an evolving storey.

If you were to ask me any questions specifically about the report,

I'd be happy to take them.

Councillor Jon Wareing - 2:46:16

I'm curious to know more about the advisory panel of recognised farmers

with skills in regenerative varieties of farming.

How is that progressing?

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 2:46:33

what's the mechanism? Well at the moment right now it isn't progressing but I've

got a meeting scheduled with Councillor Tuke who's an economy leader at the

that amongst other related matters.

Because this is a public thing, I don't want to talk about some of the conversations that happened

offline, especially because they weren't part of the public record.

But essentially we have a situation where there's, as far as I can work out, there is only one officer

in the whole of the county who's really a specialist in understanding farming.

And yet we're one of the most rural counties in the country with and it's a

big industry and it's a really critical one under severe stress. It's crucial to

the future, it's absolutely crucial to the future of the planet and the UK. It's

It's not a joke that we've got, you know, that the schedule says that soil will run

out.

Ninety percent of soil will disappear by 2050.

That is really not a joke for the future.

So things have to be done.

And how best to do that when there are so many other front -of -mind things, like AI dominates

the press, you know, and it's such a big thing and it's such a great risk.

but there are other kinds of risk that we face that aren't so apparent but they are real too.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:48:25

Thank you and I know you have actually the farmers concerns and they are serious.

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 2:48:39

It's a very, very troubling time not helped by the extraordinary hot summer this year in addition to all the other challenges.

One more thing.

The sort of thing that you are doing, Claire, on food,

is really important.

Because it isn't just about farming.

It's also about the culture of eating, and diet,

and how you cook, and what you eat, and so on.

And it's also about provision.

And it's about moving away from big food

and the transformations they do that are so often unhealthy

towards a more healthy diet, which can often

be a much more cost -effective diet at the same time. So it's really about an integrated

end -to -end transformation that the world needs to navigate. I mean, some parts of the world

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:49:28

are doing a great job already, but certainly in the UK it's a big thing. So it's about

connecting all the dots together.

Thank you. Just in time that we've got the work plan and forward plan. Now, if anybody

has any questions on these. I know that Councillor Jenkinson has raised some

suggestions with me and Democratic Services and following more discussion

these may be included in future work plans. As I said I won't be chairing the

next meeting so Angus will probably be discussing those with Simon ahead of

them and we'll see how that progresses. But does anybody else have any other

thoughts or ideas on what should be done. From this meeting today I do think that

just looking even on a small way at AI on a more regular basis, sort of every

six months, I think it's going to be partly to educate us, let alone the fact

that it is going to become how it embeds and how it works. We'll have to have a

Councillor Claire Bloomer - 2:50:30

Councillor Bloom. Yeah I just wonder if you know I know we touched on earlier on

about membership development you know just been speaking one of the

offices out there and there is a budget for staff for councillors to do more

training and you know we should make the most of it so maybe it's something that

could be done you know why people aren't taking it up so much because I think

they're putting the emails out and saying would you like training and I

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:50:55

think not many people are taking up the opportunity. Yeah I think a good

suggestion and I think that, well I shouldn't say, but the age group, you're being so young, but around here most of us were hardly, well we didn't have computers at school

certainly, and they didn't come in until much later, so you know we've done pretty

well at catching up, but I think that we would need, and actually the thing is

which makes you fearful occasionally when one's looking up something, whatever,

is you don't know whether you're making the right decision whether you should be

doing this, yes, okay, I'm getting a lot of nods around the table. It is quite

worrying and actually having a bit more of a knowledge and so knowing when is,

when things are okay and when you should avoid would be helpful. Thank you.

And that, is there anything else at the end of meeting? Just dot on the seven o 'clock.

Webcast Finished - 2:51:46

Okay, thank you very much everybody.

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Interactive webcast player

Overview and Scrutiny CommitteeMonday, 12th October 2026 at 4:00pm

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:00:00

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:00:01

Julia Gibson, Officer - 0:00:46

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:00:50

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:01:29

Councillor David Cunningham - 0:01:30

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:01:40

Councillor David Cunningham - 0:03:36

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:04:07

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 0:04:13

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:04:38

Councillor David Cunningham - 0:04:41

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:04:57

Councillor Tony Slater - 0:05:01

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:05:17

Simon Harper, Officer - 0:05:44

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:06:05

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:06:12

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:06:34

Councillor Mike Evemy - 0:06:48

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:07:27

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 0:07:30

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:08:19

Simon Harper, Officer - 0:08:26

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:08:36

Councillor David Cunningham - 0:10:51

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:11:17

Councillor David Cunningham - 0:11:19

Simon Harper, Officer - 0:11:26

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:11:39

David Stanley, Deputy CEO - 0:11:46

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:12:05

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 0:12:13

Councillor Jon Wareing - 0:12:23

Councillor David Cunningham - 0:12:28

Councillor Michael Vann - 0:12:33

Councillor Tony Slater - 0:12:38

Councillor Nikki Ind - 0:12:42

Councillor Claire Bloomer - 0:12:45

Julia Gibson, Officer - 0:12:51

Simon Harper, Officer - 0:12:56

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:13:01

Guest - 0:15:01

Guest - 0:15:31

Guest - 0:19:26

Guest - 0:19:28

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:23:09

Councillor David Cunningham - 0:23:34

Guest - 0:24:50

Guest - 0:25:34

Guest - 0:25:58

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:26:18

Councillor Jon Wareing - 0:26:20

Guest - 0:26:41

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:27:27

Councillor Tony Slater - 0:27:32

Guest - 0:28:05

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:28:16

Councillor David Cunningham - 0:28:20

Guest - 0:28:43

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:29:17

Councillor Nikki Ind - 0:29:19

Guest - 0:31:44

Guest - 0:32:06

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:33:13

Councillor Claire Bloomer - 0:33:18

Councillor Claire Bloomer - 0:33:27

Guest - 0:34:31

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:35:13

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 0:35:16

Guest - 0:36:21

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:37:35

Guest - 0:39:15

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:40:16

Councillor Mike Evemy - 0:40:38

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:41:00

Guest - 0:41:04

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:41:28

Overview and Scrutiny Committee
Monday, 12th October 2026 at 4:00pm