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Licensing Sub-Committee (Licensing Act 2003 Matters)
Thursday, 9th July 2026 at 2:00pm

 
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1 Apologies

Seat 1 - 0:00:14
Thank you, Ray. Before we go into the hearing, I got a little preamble to go through the
process so that everybody knows what's going to happen during the hearing, both before
and after. So the panel, and that's the three of us here, are going to be working
on the four pillars of licencing from the Licencing Act of 2003, which is
prevention of crime and disorder, public safety, prevention of public nuisance and
the protection of children from harm. We are going to, well what I'll do first of
is to introduce first of all the panel.
Yeah, Councillor Ray Brassington.
Councillor Ian Watson of Tepbury Division.
Seat 8 - 0:01:09
And Councillor Paul Evans of the Beaches Ward
Seat 1 - 0:01:13
in Syrinsester.
Thank you.
And perhaps if the officers could introduce themselves
starting with Emma.
Emma Sparks, licencing officer.
Seat 24 - 0:01:24
Kevin Dunford, licencing officer.
Seat 23 - 0:01:45
Seat 24 - 0:01:50
Emma Sparks, Licencing Officer. Kevin Dunford, Licencing Officer.
Seat 25 - 0:01:55
Marry Barnes, Legal Advisor to this committee.
Seat 26 - 0:02:01
Tyler Jardine, Democratic Services Officer, Support for this committee.
Seat 43 - 0:02:07
Julia Gibson, Democratic Services Officer.
Seat 1 - 0:02:12
Was that okay from a hearing point of view?
Thank you.
Seat 1 - 0:02:20
Going through now on the procedure, in a few moments I am going to ask the licencing officer
to present the application. At that point the panel will ask any questions they may
have for the licencing officer. The licencing officer will introduce the
applicants, our people representing the applicants to present the application
and again members of the panel may ask questions at that point. The chairman at
that point will invite any interested parties, including responsible authorities making representations
to address the committee in turn. Members may ask the relevant questions to those parties
making representations. The applicants may ask any relevant questions to those parties
making representations. And if necessary, the committee will consider requests to allow
other parties invited by the applicants to address the committee. And members may ask
relevant questions to any person invited by the applicants to address the committee. Any
parties who have made representation may ask relevant questions of any person invited by
the applicants.
At the end of the process I'm going to ask everybody in the room if they've been able
to say what they wanted to say, just to make sure you feel you've been heard.
At that point the panel will retire to a separate room.
We will debate amongst ourselves and decide on the application and come back to you.
Again, it depends how long it takes at this point, but today with an answer.
Is that clear?
Wonderful. Then I will go back and hand over to the licencing officer.
Sorry, we have to go through the apologies and substitutions and any declarations on the agenda first.
I'm sorry, Marie.
We need to go through the apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest on the agenda first.
Thank you. I'm looking over to our Democratic Services officers. If I may
Chair, we've had apologies from Councillor Neill before this subcommittee and
acting as substitutions will be Councillor Evans for Councillor Fowles and
yourself as acting chair for Councillor Neill. Thank you, Tyler. Good, at this point
then I'm going to hand over to the licencing officers to present the

4 Application for New Premises Licence

Seat 23 - 0:05:21
application. Thank you chair. Good afternoon everyone. This is an
application for new premises licence for La Galleria wine bar High Street
Chipping Camden Gloucestershire GL 55 6 AG. The activities applied are the sale
of alcohol between the hours of 11 a .m. and 11 p .m. on and off sales. No
representations have been received from responsible authorities under the
Act 2003. The technical pollution team stated they have no objection. The
Planning Department logged a response stating that they have reviewed the
application and planning permission and listing building consent are required.
The parish council had submitted no objection but have subsequently
withdrawn comment and adopt a neutral position. Two representations were
received by residents. These are attached in Annex D and a copy of the statement
from the owner is attached in Annex E. The Cotswold District Council statement
of licencing policy 2021 and to 2025 is to be reviewed and updated every five
years. This is currently in progress and until publication the current policy
remains in place to guide the process.
The Licencing Authority will only apply terms and conditions
to licences to promote one or more of the licencing objectives
and that they are relevant to the individual circumstances
of the application.
These include prevention of crime and disorder, public safety,
prevention of public nuisance, protection of child from harm.
The Licencing Authority will always seek to ensure that conditions are necessary, proportionate and reasonable,
and will avoid the use of conditions which duplicate other legal requirements that apply to an employer or operator of the premises.
The Licencing Authority will consider every application on its individual merits,
will seek to balance the needs of the local community
and commercial premises and activities
against those who may be concerned
about the adverse impacts for licenced premises.
The options for consideration by the subcommittee
are to grant the application as requested,
to grant the application subject to conditions
that are necessary to promote the licencing objectives,
objectives, refuse the application in whole or impart where it is necessary to promote
the licencing objectives. I have nothing further to say, Chairman. Thank you.
Seat 1 - 0:08:14
Seat 25 - 0:08:17
Thank you very much. Chair, if I may, apologies for coming back
to you again. We didn't do the declarations of interest and if we may just have confirmation
of that for the record. Apologies for that.
Seat 1 - 0:08:28
No, thank you very much, Marie. I'm going to ask any panel members and officers if they've got any conflict of interest in this case.
No.
I think that's a negative all round. Thank you very much.
I'm going to open to the panel to ask questions of the Licencing Officer if you've got questions at this point.
Seat 2 - 0:09:04
Yes, thank you. On the information pack we've got proposed conditions. Who's proposed those?
Seat 23 - 0:09:14
Seat 2 - 0:09:17
The applicant proposed the conditions. In relation to proposal condition number five
It says food will be available until one hour before the premise closes.
Given this is an alcohol licence, can we put a condition on which relates to food?
Seat 24 - 0:09:33
This one you most likely wouldn't know.
So when it comes to these proposed conditions, it's how the document was worded on the application
process.
On the application form, you've got sections towards the end of it as how they're going
to achieve their licencing objectives.
In the pack you'll see on the application form it's referred to this document.
It doesn't form the conditions upon completion of either the application process or after
a hearing.
We would build conditions that were enforceable from a licencing perspective from what's been
put forward.
We would not in this instance propose any conditions that may be crossed over with what
was decided today.
But with regards to the food we wouldn't be imposing any conditions from a licence imposing any restrictions on food.
Seat 8 - 0:10:26
Thank you Emma for your information. I note on paragraph 3 .2 that the papers I have said that the parish council has no objection.
I thought I heard you say that they'd withdrawn to a neutral position.
So they changed that position.
That's correct, yes.
So effectively they're making no comment.
Seat 23 - 0:10:48
Correct, yes.
Thank you.
Seat 1 - 0:10:51
I think I'll try to carry it then.
going on to ask the licencing officers if they would introduce the applicants.
Seat 23 - 0:11:06
Representing the applicant is Richard Taylor from Goschalk's.
Seat 29 - 0:11:13
So if I could hand over to Richard please. Thank you.
Chair members, good afternoon. My name is Taylor, Richard Taylor. I'm a solicitor
instructed by the gentleman next to me, Raphael Esposito, who is the applicant.
Next to him is Nicola Carparosa, who might just whisper in Mr Esposito's ear to keep him absolutely up to speed.
His English is absolutely super, but just so he's cognizant of what's happening.
So that's who I've got. If you'd like me to start, Chair?
A week or so ago I served a statement and the statement was from Wendy Esposito who
is Raphael's wife.
It appears in your documents at 57 to 62 and I hope you found that helpful because the
intention of that was really just to outline what we're looking for here, what we're seeking
and more importantly what we're not looking for.
So with all of that in mind, I'll deal with this application,
if I may, in three parts.
The applicant, the application, what we're applying for,
what we're not applying for, and how it's proposed
that we promote the licencing objectives.
And then I'll comment on some of the relevant issues raised
in the representations.
And as you said, Chair, when we started,
what we're concentrating in here are those four pillars of the licencing objectives.
I am very, very keen that we do not get into a planning situation
and the suitability of the premises or anything like that.
That is being dealt with separately with professional advisors dealing with the planning
from Mr Esposito's part and we'll deal with the planning officer.
So I'm just going to concentrate on licencing.
So the first thing, the applicant, Mr Esposito himself.
He is the owner and operator of existing premises in Chipping Camden.
Almost over the road on High Street is Daluigi's Bistro.
He's been operating it since 2022.
And you'll have seen from Mrs Esposito's statement, it's very well regarded, both by locals and
by tourists.
Crucially, though, that is a restaurant premises about which there have never been any complaints
Made to the premises and that's complaints from local residents or indeed any issues raised from members of the responsible
authorities
So that is mr. Esposito the application
Is for another food head premises?
a
Very small. It's we're talking 20 or 22 covers a
aperitivo citti concept and you've seen from Mrs. Esposito's statement that it's
a concept all about fine food accompanied by fine wine if you want it
a glass of wine if you want it what it is not is an 80s style wine bar and
those of us who are old enough to remember 80s style wine bars remember
flashing lights, loud music, poser tables and all sorts of things like that. We
could not be further from that to the extent to which the words wine and bar
have been dropped from the name of the premises altogether. So it will just be
called La Galleria Aperitivo. So we're talking about a small plates
premises, intimate atmosphere, low key, dim lighting, rustic Italian concept.
And what we've sought here is a licence through to 11pm.
But those you'll have seen from Mrs Esposito's statement, the maximum hours that they would
want to trade.
She's very clear in her statement, probably be closed by half nine, possibly ten o 'clock,
But we're certainly not seeking to operate until 11 o 'clock day in day out or indeed open from 11 o 'clock in the morning
The hours sort of purely to allow the flexibility to operate and you'll have seen actually in one of the representations
There's men met with the dimension of Huxley's Huxley's down the road
Oh that only trade that trades, you know until in the early evening
But of course if you have a look at the licence it is licenced till 11 o 'clock, perhaps not
reasonably. The other important thing about the application as it's made is
the only licence of activity is the sale of alcohol. So there's no suggestion of
any music, no live music, no recorded music, nothing more than the sale of
alcohol as licenseable activity. Again, there may be a little bit of background
music, but of course that's not licenseable, but that's all to reinforce
this Italian rustic atmosphere of food -led premise.
So your colleague, Chair, raised the suggested conditions.
You've seen CCTV's going in, the staff will be trained,
Challenge 25, notices asking people to leave quietly,
and then of course the one that you raised,
food an hour until closing.
Well, what we were trying to do with that is reinforce the fact
that this is not a bar for drinking, this is a food -led premise.
But if you want to come in and have a drink and an anchovy, absolutely fine.
Or if two of you want to come in and only one who wants the food, absolutely fine.
So not quite the restaurant conditions that we used to see under the 1964 Act,
where the sale of food was ancillary to a substantial table meal.
But as close as we could get to that, really just to emphasise the fact
that this is a food -led business.
So moving then, I know I only have 15 minutes, moving then to the representations.
We've got two and we absolutely understand our neighbours concerns.
And what we've got is representations from the next door neighbour on either side.
One is an antique shop with living accommodation above.
The other is a licenced deli, tokes, looks very nice.
where you can... it has on -sales and off -sales, you can have a glass of wine in there,
and again, that has...
No, please don't interrupt.
Well, if it's not licenced, there is a board outside saying,
come in and enjoy a glass of wine.
It may be if they're giving it away, and I stand corrected.
Very nice premises, absolutely not a problem.
So looking at those representations, and I'll deal with the relevant matters only,
it's because your policy says planning and licensing...
I should have mentioned this, but we allow 15 minutes for speakers, so you've got another five minutes.
Right, okay, thank you. I'll be done well within that.
So as your policy says, I'm just dealing with the licencing aspects,
because planning and licencing are to be dealt with separately.
and really the only licencing objective I think is raised here by the representations
is the prevention of public nuisance. And when we look at the representations, they
need to be looking at the context that there are no representations from any of the responsible
authorities who are to be regarded as the experts in their field. No representations
from any other residents or indeed the parish council, except for the next door neighbours
who are concerned. So, Mrs. Bennett, her representation is that noise would leak. But what I will
say about that is that these premises have 300mm, of course, whole stone walls. There
is no music. And between the proposed premises and toques, also commercial premises, there
premises, now let's call them, is a passage. What there is, is there's bedroom accommodation
above both of them, but it's bedroom to bedroom. And what Mr Esposito has done is he's installed
the best soundproofing available to him in the ceiling.
So we've got a 20 or 22 seat food -led premises and we need to ensure that the only licenceable
activity doesn't cause a noise.
Well, the only unlicensedable activity
is the sale of alcohol.
We're very confident that the sounds of guests dining
or enjoying a drink early or in the mid -evening
will be properly contained.
And you've seen Mrs. Esposito says again in her statements
to ensure that the noise of bottles going into recycling
doesn't cause a problem, then this will not happen after 8
o 'clock in the evening.
Moving to Mr. and Mrs. Chinnery, a representation
which is largely about planning, suitability of the premises obviously is
an issue for planners, concerns about disruptive noise until midnight. We'll
just pause there. Noise from what? It's not noise from guests who are meeting.
Guests who've enjoyed a meal leaving, well you know this is cheap in Camden.
This is a premise with no noise. People will... premises, I'm sorry, with no music.
People will enjoy their food and leave. They will be encouraged to leave.
There will be notices, as we say, asking them to leave quietly.
There is, as I say, a suggestion of restricted closing times like Huxley's,
but we've already dealt with the fact that that has a licence until 11.
So there you are. I'm very close to my 15 minutes.
I will wrap it up there now. I am actually paid by the hour, so I can go on.
And, you know, and I know I get a little summing up at the end,
but that won't be long.
If you have any questions, members of the committee,
I have Mr. Esposito here, and Nicola,
should you have any questions of us.
Thank you very much indeed.
Seat 1 - 0:21:28
Thank you.
Thank you very much indeed.
I'm going to open now to panel members
if they've got questions for the applicants.
Yeah.
Go on.
Thank you.
Thank you for the information.
Useful.
I have a question about a condition about food served until one hour before closing.
What does that practically mean?
It's standard within the restaurant trade.
Seat 29 - 0:22:02
You close your kitchen before you close the premise.
The idea is, and we've all had it, one's last orders for food.
So practically that means that if we're open at 4 o 'clock in the afternoon and we plan to close at 8 o 'clock in the evening, then the food would be available till 7.
If we plan to close at 9 or 10, then the food would be available at all times.
The driver here is to reinforce and to emphasise the fact that this isn't a bar, if you like.
I don't quite agree with your licencing officer as to whether or not that is an enforceable condition.
That is a condition that is on many, many licences up and down the country.
Again, it's on premises that trade as restaurant -type premises.
But I will always defer to how things are done locally.
Seat 8 - 0:22:51
Just thank you for that.
Just as a follow -up to that scenario, supposing the restaurant is open at six
o 'clock in the evening and it's quiet for food, so Mr Esposito makes a decision to
close the restaurant at say seven o 'clock. Does that mean the restaurant
absolutely has to close at eight o 'clock or if you had a group of people coming
in at say five to eight or wanted a good few drinks that would be that would
happen because it would be permitted under your licence.
Seat 29 - 0:23:27
The purpose of the condition is to ensure that food is available.
If you've taken the decision to close, then you're going to close, aren't you?
If you've taken the decision that you'll stay open because a group of people have come who
want a pizza, then you would basically need to work out when you're closed.
I mean, you could always, if you wanted to grant this licence until 11 o 'clock, if you
You were minded to grant the licence until 11 o 'clock.
In my view, you could have a condition to say that food will be available until at least
one hour before the premises closes.
I was thinking more commercially, because if nobody's eating, you might decide to close
the kitchen, but actually if somebody comes in and goes, ha ha, I don't actually want
any food, I'd like some drink.
But you'd have to close within an hour of closing the kitchen.
Right.
OK.
Thank you.
Question to licencing officers.
Seat 8 - 0:24:18
Is that a clarification?
Is that an enforceable condition?
Seat 24 - 0:24:26
I understand where the gentleman is coming from.
There are certain conditions that do align alongside food,
as he mentioned, where you would be buying a drink,
it must be accompanying a meal, et cetera.
I must admit myself, I haven't worked alongside or experienced
one specifically that says food will be available to one hour before the premises is closed.
My experience has been dealing with the late night refreshment side of things where if they're going
to be serving food that's from 11pm until 5am. So I would seek clarification as to whether that
was enforceable from from our standpoint I'd consult with legal and absolutely as it's been
Seat 8 - 0:25:13
presented and and suggested that we can work with that then we can of course implement that yes.
Because we are granting a licence for the sale of alcohol solely.
That's the point.
Rather than supply of food.
Seat 24 - 0:25:24
Absolutely. The application is for the sale of alcohol.
Thank you.
Seat 29 - 0:25:32
Just coming on from there.
The condition sits, of course, this is a licencing application.
But it's very similar to CCTV, isn't it?
CCTV actually has nothing to do with alcohol sales at all.
But the offence caused is Section 1361,
the Operation of Licensable Activities,
otherwise than in accordance with the terms of a licence.
And so what the conditions do is they specify how
you are going to have to do it.
And if you have a condition that says you have to have CCTV,
if you don't have it, you're in breach.
If you have a condition to say you'll
have food on until at least an hour before you close, again,
you would be in breach if you didn't do it.
Seat 8 - 0:26:14
I'm looking to officers.
Seat 24 - 0:26:20
I appreciate the viewpoint.
As stated, I would want to see clarification on that before we imposed it.
The conditions need to be in place to meet the licencing objectives and they need to address the licencing objectives.
That condition specifically for the sale of alcohol is a first for me, I must admit.
So I would seek clarification on the end of this and even during the rest we can get an
Seat 24 - 0:26:48
Seat 8 - 0:26:48
answer for you, possibly from the legal team.
Thank you Kevin, thank you.
Seat 2 - 0:26:59
This application is for premises licence to serve alcohol.
Correct me if I'm wrong, you said that we may be closing at 9 .30, 10 p .m. sometimes.
That's very well for the applicant.
As it is a premise licence, what is stopping somebody new coming in and then opening till
11 o 'clock every night?
Seat 29 - 0:27:32
Well the answer is nothing.
I mean it's exactly the same as Huxley's, it's exactly the same as anywhere else.
We deal with everything on its merits.
I mean we're not seeking a licence for somebody else.
I'm just making the point that you said that they're going to
close at 9, 30, 10 o 'clock, which implies it will be less
noise disturbing to people.
The point I'm making is the licence is until 11, so somebody
else could come, and then the atmosphere and everything
would change.
Yeah, absolutely.
You're absolutely right.
Yes.
But we deal with licencing applications on what's in front
of us, rather than what might happen in the future, because
that's what the review process is for.
Seat 2 - 0:28:13
You mentioned that the soundproofing work had already been carried out.
In the information we've got it says as part of the ongoing refurbishment we are looking to instal the best soundproofing.
So has it been installed or not?
Yes.
It does?
Yes, the statement was ten days or so ago and I've been today and I've spoken to the builder who's told me about the acoustic properties of the boarding.
Got to tell you, didn't really understand it.
But what he did say to me is it's acoustic boarding.
Right, okay.
And then there's some question about the licencing hours
and nearby properties.
It mentions Huxleys, that's 11 p .m., you say.
Are there any other premises nearby similar?
Seat 29 - 0:29:02
I think that's a question for your licencing officer.
But I mean the only reason I mentioned Huxleys is it came up
in one of the representations as a premises that closes much earlier.
I was merely saying it chooses to close earlier, which is exactly what we're seeking here.
Thank you very much.
Seat 1 - 0:29:25
I do have one question. On the plan of the premises, there is a courtyard.
Would that courtyard be used for service?
Seat 29 - 0:29:37
Seat 8 - 0:29:40
or exactly the question I asked earlier.
The question for our officers, it could be in future.
It might not be now and the licence is...
Judging on this application.
Okay, now that's fine.
Not a future one.
No, no, no, I understand, I understand that.
But I'm just challenging the answer you gave me
based on intent.
Seat 8 - 0:30:05
Thank you. Just in terms of the accommodation that's in place, is there any accommodation
above the proposed restaurant? Yes, it's residential. And who lives there? Mr Esposito's staff.
Seat 29 - 0:30:25
is chair staff. Thank you.
Seat 1 - 0:30:31
Then I'd like to thank the applicants very much indeed and at this point
I would like to invite interested parties to come forward. There is a chair here for public speaking.
Thank you very much.
If I can ask you to introduce yourself.
Again, the same rules applies.
There's 15 minutes for speaking and I warn you about five minutes to go, something like
that.
So please go ahead when you're ready.
Thank you.
My name is Charlie Bennett.
Seat 27 - 0:31:28
My wife and I are the owners of the property next door,
which is known as Tokes.
And there's a couple of things I'd like to say.
Firstly, on the plan,
it has two fire escapes marked.
I'm presuming it has two fire escapes
because that is a requirement.
The fire escape that is shown coming over our passageway out into the street, I think
cannot be a fire escape for a couple of reasons.
Firstly, it belongs to us, the owner of next door has a right of way to access the rear
door into their property, which is not a public right of way.
Also, as owners of the passage, we store things in it, and I would imagine that no fire exit
allows any storage stuff in the passage. We store stuff there all the time and have to.
And also the door is locked every evening at six o 'clock. So I failed to see how you
can have a fire escape which has things in it and a locked door at the end of it. So
I just wasn't sure if you were aware that the pass rate belongs solely to us.
If I may interrupt you for a moment while I seek advice.
Is fire safety relevant to the application for licencing premises?
Chad, no, it's not part of the licencing consideration.
It's private matter of land law.
But we do appreciate you raising that, but it isn't a matter for the licencing panel to consider.
So fire experts have nothing to do with licencing?
They do have, the applicant will have to comply with fire regulations, that's a separate regime.
They are obliged in law to comply with fire regulations and everything that that entails.
Sorry, I've never done that patient, so it may be that there's consultation with the local fire department.
But it's not our regime and the consultation was made with the fire department and they
did not raise any objection.
You don't know if they came up to view the premises and they know the legal ownership
of the passage?
No, but as I said, the legal ownership of the passage is not an issue for the licencing
consideration.
It presumably will be for the fire department?
As I say, the applicant still has to comply with all fire regulations and that will be a consideration for that, but it's not a consideration for the licencing.
I just wanted to make you aware of the issue.
Thank you.
Secondly, I mean, it's all very valuable.
Anybody saying that they don't intend to open till 11.
But we all know that we all make decisions when we're running a business.
What is and isn't viable.
There's absolutely nothing that can stop them trading till 11, if the licence is granted
to that time.
So I think a verbal promise that they're not going to, I would say is completely worthless.
Because if it's granted, they have every right to stay open whenever they choose to.
The second thing I wanted to say was that on the noise, again, you're probably not aware,
they may not be aware, but there's a flying freehold.
So the bedroom of our house is not solely over our property and the passage.
It actually goes about two foot six over the gallery wine bar.
So noise could be considerable coming up from the wine bar up into the bedroom above.
It is not, as I say, it's a flying freehold.
So I cannot see how, unless it's the most extraordinary amount of soundproofing,
that there's not going to be noise in the principal bedroom of our house next door.
So I don't know if that's allowable on the premise of the
licence.
Absolutely.
Please continue.
And the other thing is, and again, I don't know how relevant this is, but on the plan,
it says that it's a cold food prep area, but we were actually told by Rafael and his wife
that they intend to instal a pizza oven in there.
So, again, the plan is incorrect because, as far as I know,
pizzas are normally hot and you've got them.
So that's really all the things we have to say.
Thank you very much for coming up.
I
Seat 2 - 0:36:36
Seat 27 - 0:36:40
Yeah, yeah, I'm sorry I think quite catch your name Charlie Bennett Bennett
You're you're victoria Bennett's husband. Yeah, right, okay, and you you live it tokes
Yes, we own the whole property, so we live above.
Right, okay.
And you mentioned about various children.
Ellison is one of them, is it?
Our son, Sam, also lives in that property.
So how many children live there?
On a permanent basis, one,
and the other grandchildren visit very regularly.
Okay, just a moment of clarification. I'm not quite following.
Thank you.
Do you have any questions?
At this point, I would...
Would you mind switching off your red light?
Seat 1 - 0:37:44
To do with the IT.
To invite the applicants or the representative to ask questions.
Seat 29 - 0:37:52
I have no questions, thank you.
Seat 1 - 0:37:58
Are there any other interested parties who would like to speak?
Seat 27 - 0:38:20
I will look into that.
Hello there.
Again, if you could start off by stating your name.
You've got 15 minutes, of course, to make a statement.
At that point, we will, members of the panel may ask questions or indeed the applicants
may ask questions. When you're ready please go ahead.
Thank you. Rachel Chinnery, my husband and I own the antique shop next door. We live
above and at the back. Our property actually is on two sides of the proposed wine bar.
So we're not only going to face noise from the front of the building when the customers
are leaving after a few drinks and they do talk and they do laugh and shout and all that
when they leave the premises. We know because we live opposite the other premises that he
has. We are going to face noise from the back because our kitchen window and our bedroom
window is over the courtyard at the back of their property. Actually looks over that courtyard.
So although customers may not be there, the staff are going to take their breaks out there,
smoking and whatever, chatting, laughing.
So that is directly next to our kitchen window and beneath our bedroom window.
Okay, so that's the noise.
Also there's no smoking areas for the customers, so they are going to stand on the pavement,
smoking, drinking maybe because they can't smoke inside the building so again
that's the extra noise. I know waste management isn't your agenda I know that
but we are concerned about bins being left in the street overnight when they
close through to the collection in the morning which is a
Just a moment. I'm going to go to our legal representative.
Seat 1 - 0:40:54
Is waste part of the application or is that handled under a different law?
Seat 25 - 0:40:59
As the lady said, the waste is not a matter for this licencing hearing.
I appreciate there may be waste issues in the area,
but they do not fall under the consideration of this application.
Thank you very much.
Seat 27 - 0:41:19
Okay. So obviously we are very positive about something next door so I just want to put
the other side to it but we are concerned with the noise after six o 'clock when the
rest of that side of the street is predominantly residential and quiet. That is our concern.
Because, yeah, after six o 'clock it's very quiet across that side.
Everybody's, you know, like watching TV, whatever, and there is no noise.
But there will be.
And although they say they're going to close at certain times, like the gentleman said,
he could be open till 11 .30 and then 12 o 'clock you've got people laughing and screaming down the street.
because they've had too much to drink. And it does say wine bar on the application, so
we could only do a representation based on that, not based on this food -led restaurant
with no kitchen scenario that they're putting forward. Thank you.
Seat 1 - 0:42:26
Thank you. Anything else? Do members of the panel have any questions?
Seat 8 - 0:42:36
I have the map in front of me with the courtyard and the delineated red line where the restaurant
is. I am trying to understand the topology of your residence in relation to the courtyard.
It faces out the back here, directly behind. I have the courtyard here.
And your residence is this side?
We're the building along the back of the courtyard.
Our property wraps around the courtyard.
So if you look at the wine bar from the front, as is on the left hand side,
then going round the back of the property and then Tokes Passageway is down the other side of the property.
Thank you, that's helpful.
Seat 2 - 0:43:34
Just one question. You mentioned in your submission that this part of the High Street is presumably
residential and a few shops do operate all closed by 6pm. But we've already heard that
Seat 27 - 0:43:51
Hawkesley's can go on until 11pm?
That's totally the other end of the street. I was just looking at, you know, like, sort
six or seven houses either way of the wine bar and they are just normal shops
closed by six or houses or mix of commercial and residential.
So how far is Huxley's away from you?
It's the other end of town.
That was just an example for sort of hours that may be okay.
Okay, thank you.
Reasonable hours.
Seat 1 - 0:44:26
I would like to offer the applicants no question from the applicant. No thank you.
Is there anybody else from the public who would like to speak with us please? If you come up to
the public speaking chair if you would introduce yourself and again we we have 15 minutes
Seat 25 - 0:44:58
but press the red button. Sorry, Chair. Can I just clarify whether the
member of the public here was one of the objectors? We can only hear from the
objectors that made representations. Oh sorry. Sorry, if you hadn't made
representations during the application pack unfortunately we can't hear you.
I did mention it.
Oh, you did.
Sorry.
I only cancelled the call.
Well, Charlie and I made the presentation.
Well, it's Mrs Bennett's representation.
Wonderful.
Thank you.
I just wanted to clarify.
Mr Bennett, I'd understood that Mr Bennett was speaking on Mrs Bennett's behalf on the
basis that...
Okay.
I just want to say, you have photographic evidence, so does that solve it?
Sorry.
Seat 1 - 0:45:41
We cannot accept evidence brought in during the hearing.
It has to be notified beforehand so the partner has got a chance to review it.
It's the law I'm afraid.
Okay.
Seat 1 - 0:46:22
Okay. At this point, and I'm speaking to the public at this point, you may ask any questions
to the applicants at this point that you have. Do you have questions for the applicants?
applicants.
Then I would invite the applicants to summarise their case.
Seat 29 - 0:47:04
Thank you.
I'd like to go last, if I may, which is the usual course of events.
If this is last, then I'll crack on.
But if the objectors, the representors, sorry, are then going to summarise,
the usual course of events would be for the representors to go first,
and me to have the last word.
Seat 1 - 0:47:22
Okay.
Seat 29 - 0:47:31
Thank you very much.
Do beg your pardon.
So members of the committee, at the end of last week I circulated extracts from the section
182 guidance and local policy to which I was going to refer.
And from a policy perspective, of course, we need to totally separate planning and licencing.
And as the Chair said right at the beginning, we concentrate solely on the promotion of the licencing objectives
in the context of a proposal for a very small 20 to 22 cover food -led premise.
The two bits of the guidance that I wanted to refer to, section 912.
Each responsible authority will be an expert in their respective field.
The reason that I wanted to raise that is, of course, none of the responsible authorities
object.
All of the experts in the licencing objectives do not object to this application.
The second part of the guidance to which I wanted to refer was that the determination
should be evidence -based.
And of course that comes from the case law, that we make licencing applications on the
basis of evidence.
Real evidence was the words of Her Honour Mrs Justice Black in the Thwaites case.
We don't make licencing decisions on the basis of fears, suppositions, guesswork.
We work on real evidence.
So what is the evidence, members of the committee, in this case?
Is there any good reason, based on the licencing objectives, why these premises shouldn't be
permitted to sell alcohol?
Well, the licencing objective here is the prevention of public nuisance.
Well, in favour of the grant is this.
We have an operator with vast experience in Chipping Camden operating licence premises
about which no one has ever complained.
A spotless track record. Evidence. Cold hard fact.
That is an operator who has made a responsible application and is installing, and it has
installed the best soundproofing available to him to ensure that there is no noise caused
by people dining in his restaurant to any of his neighbours. Again, evidence, evidence
that he's doing something about it. Further evidence, not applied for any music, anything
that would likely cause a nuisance. Again, I've dealt with the responsible authorities,
the experts do not object. And of course if we go back to the Thwaites case, Mrs Justice
Black when the residents were saying, oh, there will be noise, there will be nuisance,
there will be crime and disorder, she said, her words were, the fact that the police did
not object must weigh heavily with them. Well, it's exactly the same here, isn't it? The
expert in noise and nuisance, environmental health, technical services, aren't saying
there's going to be any issues caused by what is proposed. Who is saying it? Well,
the people who could be affected. No representations from the parish council,
no representations from any other resident, and no evidence actually of any
premises in the area are actually selling alcohol causing any problems at all. As we say,
this is chipping Camden, this is quiet, this is sleepy, this will be totally in
in keeping with what is there.
So there is all of the evidence on one side,
the evidence on the other, and we absolutely accept our neighbours' positions
and they absolutely accept their fears and concerns,
but what have we actually heard evidentially?
And the answer is very, very little indeed.
Now you will come to view this.
So when you go and consider this, you look at a 20 to 22 seat food led premises and look
what issues is that going to cause.
Now if there's no evidence to say it's going to cause any public nuisance, and again we
could argue public nuisance for a long time but I'm choosing not to go there.
What is that going to cause?
Now you may find on what you've heard and using your experience that 11 o 'clock is too late.
And if you decide that 11 o 'clock is too late and a 10 o 'clock terminal hour is more appropriate,
based on what you've heard, then Mr Esposito may need to accept that.
But again, it comes down to what is the evidence here.
There are other pieces of the jigsaw to fit together.
We've heard about fire escape, we'll sort fire escape.
We've heard about planning that's being sorted.
Here it's licencing.
Is there any evidence in front of this committee here today which would cause you to say,
firstly, no, a licence shouldn't be granted, or if a licence is going to be granted,
that we're going to curtail the hours?
And in my respectful submission, there isn't any evidence of that at all,
and in the circumstances, the application should be granted in the served sort.
Thank you.
Seat 1 - 0:53:11
Thank you very much. I'd like to ask if the public speakers would like to summarise their
their points before we go into closed session.
Seat 1 - 0:53:39
Thank you.
Before we go into closed session, I would like to ascertain that on the side of the
applicants on the side of the public speakers that you feel you've had the chance to say
everything you wanted to say in this open session.
I'd like to ask a question of clarification.
Yes, sir.
Yeah.
Yes, sir.
Yeah.
Thank you very much for that.
At this point the committee will withdraw.

4 Application for New Premises Licence

Seat 2 - 0:54:32
We will come to a decision today and come back to this.
You said that you would be willing to close at ten o 'clock.
Seat 29 - 0:54:44
Is that an offer you're making today in order to alleviate the concerns of residents?
No.
What I am saying is if you find on the evidence that that is appropriate to promote the licencing objectives, then that would
Seat 2 - 0:54:58
That then is a decision for you, but it's a matter of determination on the evidence.
What we would like is the same flexibility that Huxleys has further down the road.

4 Application for New Premises Licence

Seat 1 - 0:55:19
Thank you very much for waiting for us. We were in a hot room. This is much better. I'm
going to read a statement that we prepared after debating. The licencing subcommittee
was mindful of the concerns raised by the members of the public and considered
them in view of the licencing objectives and our policy. However, the subcommittee
has decided to grant the application from 11 a .m. to 11 p .m. subject to the
mandatory conditions and those proposed by the applicant, that's numbers one to
4. The subcommittee believes that these conditions will mitigate potential nuisance.
I would also like to read a statement. There is a route of appeal, and that is the appeal
and review rights. You are reminded that there are rights of appeal against the licencing
authorities decision pursuant to the Licencing Act of 2003. An appeal must be made to the
Magistrates Court within 21 days of notification of the authorities decision. I
would remind you of the procedures contained within the Licences Act
2003
relating to review of the premises licence. You will be aware that the provision permits nearby residents or businesses or
responsible
authorities to apply for a review of a promise licence where problems and
crime
disorder, public safety, public nuisance, or the protection of children,
protecting children from harm are occurring.
That's the end of my statement. The application is granted.