Overview and Scrutiny Committee - Monday 2 February 2026, 4:00pm - Cotswold District Council Webcasting

Overview and Scrutiny Committee
Monday, 2nd February 2026 at 4:00pm 

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  1. Councillor Gina Blomefield
  2. Julia Gibson, Officer
  3. Councillor Gina Blomefield
  4. Julia Gibson, Officer
  5. Councillor Gina Blomefield
  6. Councillor Angus Jenkinson
  7. Councillor Gina Blomefield
  8. Councillor Nick Bridges
  9. Councillor Gina Blomefield
  10. David Stanley, Deputy CEO
  11. Councillor Gina Blomefield
  12. Councillor Angus Jenkinson
  13. Councillor Gina Blomefield
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  1. Councillor Angus Jenkinson
  2. Councillor Gina Blomefield
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  1. Officer
  2. Councillor Gina Blomefield
  3. Councillor Jon Wareing
  4. Councillor Gina Blomefield
  5. Officer
  6. Councillor Gina Blomefield
  7. Councillor Nick Bridges
  8. Officer
  9. Councillor Gina Blomefield
  10. Councillor Clare Turner
  11. Officer
  12. Councillor Gina Blomefield
  13. Councillor Angus Jenkinson
  14. Officer
  15. Councillor Angus Jenkinson
  16. Officer
  17. Councillor Angus Jenkinson
  18. Officer
  19. Councillor Angus Jenkinson
  20. Officer
  21. Councillor Gina Blomefield
  22. Councillor Ian Watson
  23. Officer
  24. Councillor Gina Blomefield
  25. Councillor David Cunningham
  26. Officer
  27. Councillor Gina Blomefield
  28. Councillor Lisa Spivey
  29. Officer
  30. David Stanley, Deputy CEO
  31. Councillor Lisa Spivey
  32. Councillor Gina Blomefield
  33. Councillor Tony Slater
  34. Officer
  35. Councillor Gina Blomefield
  36. Officer
  37. Councillor Gina Blomefield
  38. David Stanley, Deputy CEO
  39. Officer
  40. Councillor Gina Blomefield
  41. Councillor Angus Jenkinson
  42. Councillor Angus Jenkinson
  43. Councillor Gina Blomefield
  44. Officer
  45. Councillor Gina Blomefield
  46. Andrew Brown, Officer
  47. Councillor Angus Jenkinson
  48. Councillor Gina Blomefield
  49. Andrew Brown, Officer
  50. Councillor Ian Watson
  51. Councillor Gina Blomefield
  52. Councillor Lisa Spivey
  53. Councillor Gina Blomefield
  54. Councillor Clare Turner
  55. Councillor Angus Jenkinson
  56. Councillor Gina Blomefield
  57. Andrew Brown, Officer
  58. Councillor Gina Blomefield
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  1. Councillor Patrick Coleman
  2. Councillor Gina Blomefield
  3. David Stanley, Deputy CEO
  4. Councillor Gina Blomefield
  5. Councillor David Cunningham
  6. David Stanley, Deputy CEO
  7. Councillor Gina Blomefield
  8. Councillor Ian Watson
  9. Councillor Gina Blomefield
  10. Councillor David Cunningham
  11. David Stanley, Deputy CEO
  12. David Stanley, Deputy CEO
  13. Councillor Gina Blomefield
  14. Councillor Clare Turner
  15. Councillor Gina Blomefield
  16. Councillor Angus Jenkinson
  17. David Stanley, Deputy CEO
  18. Councillor Angus Jenkinson
  19. David Stanley, Deputy CEO
  20. Councillor Angus Jenkinson
  21. David Stanley, Deputy CEO
  22. Councillor Angus Jenkinson
  23. Councillor David Cunningham
  24. Councillor Patrick Coleman
  25. Councillor Gina Blomefield
  26. Councillor Tony Slater
  27. David Stanley, Deputy CEO
  28. Councillor Gina Blomefield
  29. David Stanley, Deputy CEO
  30. David Stanley, Deputy CEO
  31. Councillor Gina Blomefield
  32. David Stanley, Deputy CEO
  33. Councillor Gina Blomefield
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  1. Councillor Clare Turner
  2. Councillor Gina Blomefield
  3. Andrew Brown, Officer
  4. Councillor Gina Blomefield
  5. Councillor Angus Jenkinson
  6. Councillor Gina Blomefield
  7. Councillor David Cunningham
  8. Councillor Gina Blomefield
  9. Andrew Brown, Officer
  10. Councillor Gina Blomefield
  11. Councillor Angus Jenkinson
  12. Councillor Gina Blomefield
  13. Webcast Finished

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:00:21
A
warm welcome to everyone present, including any members of the public, whether in person
or online. I also want to acknowledge and welcome the cabinet members and officers
who will be giving their reports to all the members of the committee and also
officers present to support overview and scrutiny committee in its functions.
Just through the normal housekeeping, bar exit is through the door there, turn
further left round there, that is where the loos are and please if anybody's got
their phone please turn it to silent or turn it off. I see a fumbles going on so
So just a quick reminder on that.
It normally gets some reaction.
If anybody wishes to fill the proceedings,
this is permitted, provided it does not disrupt proceedings.
And now we go on to the apologies.
I understand Michael Van was in a not very pleasant car crash.
His wife was quite hurt.
She's in hospital in Gloucester with some broken ribs,
which I know from experience are incredibly sore.
You don't want to laugh, sneeze, cough or really do much at all.
So I hope she makes a good recovery.
Obviously he's not so badly hurt, more bruised, but it's always a shock those things.
So quite right she's not here and I wish him all the best in both their recoveries.
Have we got any other apologies?
Julia Gibson, Officer - 0:01:51
Yes, we've got apologies from Councillor Joe Harris and Councillor Ian Watson is substituting
for Councillor Joe Harris.
Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:01:58
Do we have anything from Councillor Spivey? Thank you. Do we have any substitutes?
Julia Gibson, Officer - 0:02:09
Yes, Councillor Ian Watson is substituting for Councillor Harris.
Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:02:16
Thank you very much for that. Does anybody have any declarations of interest on items
due to be discussed at this meeting? Great, thank you very much.
Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 0:02:31
There's one particular item where there's discussion about how some Councillors have
been active on behalf of local community economic development. I have been active on behalf
of local community economic development, but I have taken no pecuniary interest or anything
and I don't think that constitutes a real issue.
Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:02:54
I am fairly certain that we are satisfied that that doesn't cause a problem. So now
the next thing is the minutes of the meeting, last meeting. Has everybody read through those?
they got any comments to make both um Councillor Jenkinson and myself did make some changes
when it was in the draught form and Councillor Bridges what was your comment?
Councillor Nick Bridges - 0:03:19
I just want to follow up something on page seven um it says there have been some delays in council
rebates for residents um so these challenges were partly due to transition from housing benefit to
universal credit for working age claimants.
Can I just cheque that that's up to date?
Because that's obviously very important for some of my residents.
Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:03:40
Has anybody got an answer?
David Stanley.
Thank you, Chair.
David Stanley, Deputy CEO - 0:03:46
I'll follow up with Mandy Fathers and get the updated information.
They're currently preparing updated information for what will be the Q3 monitor, but I'll
get a written response to you by the end of the week.
Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:04:00
Thank you.
Any other comments on those minutes?
If not, could we have a proposal?
Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 0:04:10
I have two short comments.
I note that there are two important enforcement officer vacancies that are being filled.
and I think it's just important to note that given that we're talking about
finance and so forth. Is that not part of what we're discussing at the moment? No.
Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:04:33
Understood. So it's the minutes as they stand from the last meeting not

4 Minutes

the matters arising from them. So could I have a proposal and seconder? Proposer
I'll go to the vote.
I'm getting you out there.
So thank you very much for those.
The two abstentions were not being presented.
Thank you.

5 Matters Arising from Minutes of the Previous Meeting

Now we go on to the matters arising.
I'm really grateful for these valuable matters arising notes,
in particular the situation around enforcement,
which is being restructured to improve service efficiency.
Also the agreement to look into another way of differentiating
between missed bins from service failures.
The situation around planning appeals, which is being looked
at is obviously going to be a great concern going forward.
So many large planning applications likely
to come before us.
I also noted that it was confirmed that the expected time
for property searches to be complete has been lengthened
from 10 days to 40 days due to the current workload.
Also, we did look into the role of the new culture support
officer.
I hope this will be followed up.
The amount of compost created from the green waste collected,
improvement to parking enforcement,
and most helpfully, the government's calculation
of how the housing requirement figures should be calculated
give a good insight into how the figures in the draught local plan were arrived at.
I would recommend that everybody looks at those.
Now we go on to the Chair's announcements.
Following the last O &S meeting, where the committee overall were not satisfied with the amount of information
on how the requirements for the fleet replacement programme were calculated,

6 Chair's Announcements

it meant that the committee ended up neither supporting the recommendations

5 Matters Arising from Minutes of the Previous Meeting

or being in a position to propose their own.
I subsequently attended cabinet meeting and were pleased that the evidence for the decisions had been expanded
so that they were better informed for their decision making.
I also received very useful updates from Peter Johnson, the waste officer,
and an apology from the CEO, Jane Portman, for the lack of detail in the original report.
Due to the last meeting of ONS overrunning, we were not able to look at the future work plan
and I do have some suggestions for this later in the meeting when we reach this topic.

6 Chair's Announcements

And finally, I'll not be here for the next ONS meeting on the 2nd of March.
Councillor Jenkinson has agreed to chair this with Councillor Turner as his vice -chair.

7 Public Questions

Now we go on to any public questions. I don't see any members of the public here. We haven't

8 Member Questions

had any written ones, no. And likewise, have we had any member questions?
The report back on recommendations to Cabinet, I've already mentioned in my chair announcements
that I did report back to Cabinet the difficulties that O &S had with the report on the replacement
fleet for UBICO in person.

9 Report back on recommendations

3 Declarations of Interest

10 Updates from Gloucestershire County Council Scrutiny Committees

Updates from the two Gloucester County Council's scrutiny committees. We've received an update
from Councillor Neill on HOSC, and I think that Councillor
Jenkinson will talk about why he hasn't got a written report
here with us.
Councillor Neill is really, again, hugely informative,
very useful, slightly worrying in places, report, but it is
good that she keeps us in touch with what's been going on,
particularly with maternity services, and they're looking
to provide more support for dementia and other adults with
learning difficulties in the community. It's a very interesting and good report.
So do look at it please, it's on your desk, but Councillor Jenkinson would you like to
Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 0:09:02
mention the economic report? The committee meeting was, the date was changed and it
happens later this week so the event happened after this meeting so there's
no report from it.
Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:09:17
Right, thank you very much.

11 The Retail and Hospitality Sectors in the Cotswold District

Going on to the first main topic, which is on the retail and hospitality sectors, I first
want to thank Paul James for his excellent and helpful report, which I had requested
and I reviewed it earlier during its creation.
As an ex -shopkeeper with three outlets in the Cotswolds, I believe that hospitality
in retail are the beating heart of our towns and larger settlements, and that they play
an absolutely vital role in employment and vitality in business in the Cotswolds. I'm
sure we're all keen to support whatever help and advice we can provide to businesses in
these sectors which are facing significant challenges. I'm delighted to note that a town
Centre and retail study will form part of the new local plan.
Can I ask, I don't see Tristan Wilkinson here, to introduce society in support of our
lead officer Paul James. Are you doing it solo?
I think so. It looks like you are doing it solo, but thank
you very much and thank you for the report. It is excellent. I hope everybody is ready
for it carefully. Thank you.
Officer - 0:10:26
Thank you, Chair. As you say, this was a report that you requested, I think, some months ago
now, but coming to the committee today I think it's particularly timely given
some of the well -covered issues around retail and hospitality and the pressures
that they face at the moment and some of the changes that have come about as a
result of the budget and since then. I won't go through the report paragraph
paragraph but the report itself has actually been fairly widely circulated
not just within the council but elsewhere because I did raise it with my
economic development officer colleagues across the the county when we had our
monthly meeting and they asked to see it I've sent it to them and it's
subsequently been circulated to members of the county's retail and hospitality
business group, so it's had a bit of circulation.
As the report sets out, there are multiple pressures that are
being faced by businesses in the retail and hospitality sectors.
At the moment, I think it's these combination of factors
that, you know, potentially can certainly make life very
difficult for those businesses and possibly push some of them
over the edge.
I think, you know, even in places in Cotswold,
we've seen some casualties early in the year,
and it's often the case that if there are going to be casualties,
they do happen in the early months or for the year after
the kind of Christmas spend has taken place.
But we've certainly seen some.
But I've also, as part of putting the report together,
shared it with, in its formative stages,
with some of the key retail and hospitality businesses within the
district and say that their input has been helpful but I think that the main
response I got was for them to say well thank goodness someone is speaking up
for us so I think that's a positive on behalf of the council. As you'll see in
paragraph 3 .5 Cotswold district in the table that shows the the towns and the
vacancy rates, Cotswold is doing better than most places,
but that doesn't mean that it isn't difficult for businesses
here as it is for businesses everywhere because, of course,
it is difficult at this time.
By coincidence rather than necessarily by design, there
is that piece of work that's taking place at the moment
which we called the town centres initiative looking at
vacancies in the three towns with the highest vacancy rates so in Letchlade,
Moreton and in Tepbury and this was funded through the UK shared prosperity
fund with a modest contribution from each of the the town councils involved.
And we've brought in a consultant specialist consultant who working with
those town councils has looked at each of those town centres both in general
and the kind of environment and the marketing,
all of those things, but also specifically around the vacancies
within those towns and try to understand what the barriers
are to those units being filled.
And of course, they do vary from place to place,
but I think it is quite interesting that in a lot
of the cases where you've got vacant units,
they aren't even being advertised.
Certainly not online and in some cases not even with a board
in the window, and this is where the local knowledge is,
local knowledge of councils and their councils and town councils
such as is very valuable because quite often it can just take
to the owner giving, being given a bit of a nudge to get the
place marketed and filled again.
In terms of what we can do about this, as I mentioned
in the report, the influence that this council has on a lot
of the national and indeed international issues that
are affecting retail and hospitality businesses is limited. I've suggested that the committee
may wish to recommend to cabinet or the leader that they write to, that the Chancellor or
anything could write to the local MPs about some of those measures that have been introduced
that adds pressure to those businesses. And of course, the committee does have a bit of
on that matter in terms of the inheritance tax around
family farms.
Hidden away somewhere in the report, and I've not looked
at the paragraph number, but a small measure the council could
look at is whether it wishes to change its charge, reduce it,
or eliminate the charge for tables and chairs on the highway
in terms of hospitality businesses.
That's something that has been done in other places.
It's something I did in a previous life elsewhere
with reasonable success.
So that's something that could be looked at.
And there may be other ideas that the committee has that they
might wish the cabinet member or cabinet to consider.
I think just a final point I'd make,
you've probably heard enough from me.
But in relation to government, as well as the issues around
taxation and the extra pressures around minimum wage and that
kind of thing, it is also worth pointing out that from the end
of this financial year, we won't have any replacement for the UK
Shared Prosperity Fund or Rural England Prosperity Fund,
which has been used in some cases to make improvements
to town centres and to support some of the businesses there.
So, you know, that is another unfortunate negative that we
have to contend with.
But I'll do my best to take any questions.
Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:16:36
Dr. Anne Pritikinath -Priti
looking at so I think that would be a thought. Now I would love to open it up
Councillor Jon Wareing - 0:17:09
to Councillor Waring, Councillor Bridges. Thank you. I welcome the report. I've got
probably a point to make and then three questions. The first point is really
about the importance that is given to retail and hospitality because I think
it varies and the statement in the exec summary saying that it's crucial to me
is an overstatement and that the reason that it's problematic representing
Borton on the water is that the importance of the visitor economy kind
of promotes a myth that Borton survives on tourism. It collapses all of the
economic activity in the village into this one thing, which just isn't true. We have
a massive industrial estate, which is actually the source of most of the jobs that are well
paid and they're non -seasonal. We're also surrounded by farming land. Agriculture never
seems to get a mention when people are talking about the economy of Borton. And this leads
on to a secondary myth then, that if anybody is challenging the difficulty of the frankly
on sustainable levels of visitors in Borton on the water.
You're inviting all these comments like you want to turn Borton into a ghost town, it'll
kill the high street, you're anti -business, which frankly are all not true, but they're
sticks used to beat people with who want to see if there's another model, a more sustainable
approach to visitor management.
So the narrative around the importance of tourism I think can be overstated.
I'm not saying it's not important.
I'm just saying it can be overstated and that's quite damaging because of these myths.
The three questions that I've got, the first one really is about community resilience
because that is one of the vision statements for the Council.
And I think this report misses a bit of an opportunity to talk about resilience, long -term
community resilience, and the kind of measures that are being used to evaluate success in
communities around the district.
Clearly when tourism becomes unsustainable, we are looking at a degradation of resilience
of community.
and I think it's important that we should be looking at things like
localism in terms of food supply and food supply chains, circular economy,
those kind of things. The natural environment, members will be well aware
that we have significant challenges around waste important, we're a total
outlier in terms of the collection requirements for the district, as a
that's you know is there a reason that that's not actually already factored
into this that's one question given the scale of the second one is given the
scale of this activity in parts of the district why does the report not
explicitly consider the impacts of high tourism tourism levels on retail mix
affordability and year -round viability for local businesses residents in
bought and are fed up that basically there's only a pharmacy left.
We had our ironmongers in the high street close recently.
There's very little in the high street.
And so hospitality businesses, I'm not saying they're not important,
but we don't have a mix.
So when things go too far, you lose resilience of your high street.
And then the final thing is, you know, how does this work align with the corporate plans commitment to resilient communities?
Particularly in relation to infrastructure capacity, environmental sustainability and the needs of local residents because residents are bought and feel frankly, disregarded.
They don't feel anybody is looking out for them.
And I think this is a missed opportunity to show that we're taking a joined -up approach.
Thank you.
Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:21:36
Thank you for that.
I'm sure Paul has got to it.
I'm just going to make the comment that not that it wasn't really looking at tourism as
such, although of course retail and hospitality are closely aligned.
And I know that we all appreciate that Baughton has
got particular problems.
But it would be, in many ways, maybe a good idea if we could
attract more people away to some of the other towns to take
the pressure off.
So, Paul, would you like to come back and respond to those?
Officer - 0:22:04
Yeah, I certainly can.
As far as whether crucial is an Avis statement or not,
that's a subjective point.
And the point that we are making here is that it employs thousands
of people that provides a role for residents as well as for
tourism, we should probably say even more importantly for
residents providing access to basic products and services.
So I wouldn't want to get too hung up on that.
I'll try and just deal with the other questions, perhaps wrap
them together, because I think, you know, this report was about
providing a snapshot of the health of those two sectors
within the district rather than going into anything
more detailed with them.
So, for example, where we've got that, the report that I
mentioned looking at Letchley, then Moreton and Tepary,
I did ask the consultant there to look at the mix of town
centre uses and the types of retailer there.
But that particular piece of work was limited to those three
towns.
And I think perhaps the right place to be looking at in more
detail elsewhere is through the local plan process.
I will certainly take those points on board and feed that
back for when that work gets, takes place.
Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:23:32
From my experience of having been a shopkeeper,
it's that the shops want to open where they get the most
footfall, so it is, I've bought it on the water and it's all
Councillor Nick Bridges - 0:23:46
about that. Councillor Bridges. Okay my questions relate to 2 .15 talking about
shoplifting. It says that there's been a 50 % increase in shoplifting since 2020. I
was just wondering whether that is by value or by the number of shoplifters.
That's point number one.
And point number two would be, well, what are the measures
that we can do to reduce theft?
Because that seems like a very useful thing to introduce.
Officer - 0:24:23
My understanding is the 50 percent will relate to the
number of incidents rather than the overall value of that.
That's what gets reported.
is. In terms of what we can do to combat that, I think cooperation amongst the
retailers, I know that there's the siren says to save scheme which kind of copies
what goes on in other districts in the county and that's successful. As I
mentioned in the reports, you know, that the figures for Gloucestershire are
are lower than elsewhere in the country.
I think a lot of that does come down to the good work
of those crime reduction,
business crime reduction partnerships.
Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:25:13
I'm looking around thinking who else has got a question?
Oh, yeah, cancer, Turner.
Councillor Clare Turner - 0:25:18
Let's look at a question, just a comment really,
that I understand the focus of this report
was looking at the town centres,
but we shouldn't forget the support
that's also needed for all those hospitality businesses
and retail businesses that sit outside of those town centres
because we have plenty of those.
And I think sometimes it's particularly difficult
for those sort of geographically isolated businesses
who may not have access to, for example,
an active chamber of commerce type organisation
to support them.
So is there a role that the district should be playing there
to link those more isolated businesses up
to get mentoring and other types of support
that might help them, particularly new starting,
you know, recently started businesses who are struggling
with the initial set up and how to develop and expand.
Officer - 0:26:11
Yeah, well, I completely take the point that the businesses
outside of town centres are important as well.
And one thing that we have done with the benefit of the UK
shared prosperity funding over the last few years is to get
the growth hub to operate an outreach service to make sure it covers the
entire district rather than just being kind of based here in Sire and Cessna
and expecting people to come to them and that's one of the things that
unfortunately is going to be difficult to continue with with that funding
coming to an end although understand that the City Region Board on Friday did
approve some funding from the strategic economic development fund which
which hopefully will enable that to continue to some degree.
Councillor Jackson.
Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:27:00
Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 0:27:01
Yes, I'm afraid I have a few questions to ask, if I may.
Thank you, Paul. Apologies.
It seems like we address you personally like this
and then you sometimes feel obliged to answer in a more formal way back,
and it doesn't seem balanced.
But anyway, thank you very much for this report.
I'm not clear whether it was generated by O &S, and therefore
the cost of it, or whether it was generated
happening anyway.
But I think it's been valuable, at least for me, and hopefully
it will be valuable for CDC.
If only it not, sorry, not only for what is in there, but also
because I think it might prompt some further questions.
And I just want to establish before going on,
I got the impression that there was a plan to commission
a further project from the consultancy firm already
in motion or in the wings, so to speak.
And if so, could you confirm that?
Because it might make a difference to how things go
on the rest of the questions.
Officer - 0:28:13
Okay, so the report that you have before you today was
something that the chair asked for.
The appendix with the town centre initiative, looking at
those three towns, is something that was going to happen anyway
and is funded for the UK Shared Prosperity Fund.
As things stand, there isn't a proposal for any extra work once
that piece of work is finished, although, you know,
there are recommendations for each of the towns to take
forward, and collectively, the towns and ourselves and any
other partners will need to work out who's going to do
what to implement them.
Thank you.
Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 0:28:56
At county level, there's a strategic initiative that
recognises on the back of Cheltenham that there's a,
So there's a notion of ecosystems of organisations globally used.
So in order for particular industries to develop, they develop strongly when there's a bunch
of people who companies that have competence in that field can develop knowledge amongst
workers, share knowledge, and develop a presence in the marketplace.
And so distributed is often less effective than combined.
So I would like to see, I'd like to ask, and it's in relation to these two things,
put that as a context for questions about how we go forward with these industries
and generally with town centres.
I could say more about it, but I think we should keep it short now.
So there's an issue of minimum ecosystem viability for towns.
The comment was made already by Councillor Waring about the loss of businesses.
We certainly have the same problem in Morten, businesses disappearing from the centre of town.
And then it kind of becomes hollowed out and it ceases to be so interesting.
We live in an environment economically in which, because of the internet, in order to
be successful in retail, you either have to be an experience that you can't have on the
internet, like drinking a cup of coffee, for example.
You cannot do that on the internet, so a cafe works.
Or you have to be some kind of destination, something worth coming to.
Or you have to be a really staple thing that has to keep happening, like a supermarket,
where people have got to keep going and there's high volume and it will survive.
Without those, what happens is businesses erode because of the internet, so you have
to create it.
So the Cotswold District's got the capability to do that, and we have beautiful towns that
could do that, but the question is are we succeeding in doing it, and what do we need
to do to do it, it seems to me.
And as such, my question is, could we imagine trying to
create, first of all, a principle that when you come
to the Cotswolds, there's this kind of thriving environment
that you will meet, that we have, as it were, a retail brand?
Come to the Cotswolds, this is what you will get to support
the retail and to support hospitality.
community, and could we as part of that try to develop local towns that actually support
the local community and support business at the same time in a sensible, balanced, integrated
way? Could we make that an objective which we might want to put forward to Cabinet to
think about in relation also to government support?
Officer - 0:32:06
Well, you certainly care about that, and I guess the challenge
with all of these things is, you know, what are the practical
actions that come forward from that that you want to take
to be able to achieve it?
But that's certainly, as I understand it, within the
committee's gift to recommend.
Please.
Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 0:32:29
It seems to me that tourism and hospitality, putting that together, and retail, there's
a certain link between these because for many businesses it's really important to have visitors.
But it's also, as we've heard, really important to have a stable base year -round and so on.
So, as far as that concerned, it seems to me that what we need is an integrated plan
for these major towns, like Morton and so on.
Is it part of your current plans to move towards having integrated development plans for the
town centres of these major settlements?
Officer - 0:33:10
Well, I suppose it depends on what your definition of an integrated plan is.
But in terms of these, the three town centres that the
consultants looked at, the recommendations do include
setting up, if there is local support for it, setting up some
kind of place -based partnership to kind of agree what
improvements they want to see and to drive
those improvements forward.
And I think as a principle, and we're talking about principles,
I think as a principle, those things are best driven
at that town level rather than imposed bias
or anyone else more remote?
Okay, so last question.
Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 0:33:53
I'm not trying to suggest that we should impose anything,
but what I am saying is that businesses need a healthy
environment to survive, a healthy environment
to work with.
And towns aren't always, towns have to do their bit,
and businesses have to do their bit, and everything else.
But at the same time, it is part of the economic development
that government gets involved in to create a healthy environment
for business.
And I would like to know what responsibility do we have
as Cotswold District?
How important?
Is this a field that we are mandated to do?
Is it a field that we are supposed to be doing something
in?
And if so, are we really able to achieve it with the resources
that we have?
Officer - 0:34:41
Well, I'll let Officer Colleagues to tell me if I get
of this wrong but my understanding is that economic development is a purely
discretionary function so we have no mandatory duty to do it but the council
has chosen that it's something that it wishes to do but in terms of its
resources currently you you have me to look after the whole of the district and
all of its sectors and as things stand no budget of the councils in terms of
economic development activity, but we've purely been relying on whatever has been
brought in from government or other sources.
Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:35:25
Councillor Ian Watson - 0:35:31
Okay, I have to Councillor Watson. Thank you chair. I think just a couple of
on the heart flood report.
It was funded as an initial assessment.
Israel planned to carry on with funding for this
for the longer term is the first one.
And in their recommendations,
they're recommending things like more car parks, more busses.
I think in certainly tech area, which I can speak for,
we have to knock down great tool listed buildings
to build car parks, not gonna happen.
Busses, I think the last one was seen in 1956, not going to happen.
So how realistic is this report?
It talks about marketing and internet and is that just blah, blah, blah?
Sorry for being direct.
Officer - 0:36:25
Yes, just to answer the first point.
So as things stand, there is no committed plan to do anything beyond the publication
of this report.
But the report will make recommendations, and if the towns wish to take forward any
of those recommendations, then they will need to work out, we collectively will need to
work out where the resource, both human and financial,
will come from.
And as I say, I think in terms of responding to the specific
recommendations, you know, those are largely based on feedback
that the consultant got when talking to people in those
towns, as well as their own kind of experience and expertise.
But, you know, as I said, I think decisions on what is most
important to those towns are best taken at that town level.
Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:37:25
Councillor Cunningham, please.
Councillor David Cunningham - 0:37:30
Thank you, Madam Chair. I thought this was a great report, actually. I really did. Interesting,
because I think there's a perception, certainly in the towns that I know, that there are a
lot more empty units than there actually appears to be on these numbers. If I go through Simon's
history, it looks as though there are lots and lots of shops closed up and boarded up,
but actually the percentage is not that bad,
which I think is a good thing.
It might be that there's a lot of turnover.
I don't really know.
I think the recommendations,
there are some things that we can do.
Fortifying local planning policies,
which is in recommendation one,
I think that's something we can definitely do
through the local plan.
And I think also a database of the landlord
so that we can get an idea of, you know,
can we contact people and ask
why things are not being marketed?
I think that's something that we can take hold of.
And this report, can I just cheque, has it been circulated
to the relevant towns yet?
And if not, when will it go out to them?
Officer - 0:38:33
In terms of the heart flood report, a draught of the full
report, and the full report is about 50 pages, so that has gone
to the towns for comment.
And once those comments are received and the amendments made,
Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:38:51
then we can publish it. Yes, Councillor Spivey. Apologies for my late arrival to
Councillor Lisa Spivey - 0:38:55
the meeting. Yes, an excellent report I thought very very interesting. A quick
question and then a comment. So has there been any move to deploy a
business improvement district in either any of our specific town centres or more
widely and I don't know if it's even possible to do something on a district
wide level so a bid like they have in Cheltenham or Gloucester or various
Officer - 0:39:25
areas. So we did have a feasibility study done into a bid in Cirencester a few
years ago and I think I think the long and the short of it is that it wasn't
terribly warmly received and as you know if you're going to get a business
improvement district approved it's got to go to ballot and get the 50 % on number
and square footage approved so it wasn't taken forward and I think one of
the issues is that for bids to get that approval there needs to be a
hang itself on something that needs to be an issue that needs resolving and they
kind of wasn't. It is interesting that when I was talking to the town council
recently and they put out some kind of printed newsletter to the town centre
businesses monthly, even when they floated the idea of having some kind of
town centre forum for businesses, they didn't get a particularly warm response
to that either. So yeah, there will be reasons for that. And I think
largely because it does pretty well as it is.
Maybe the businesses, as well as all the other pressures
on them, probably don't feel that's something they need to do.
And I think the other challenge with bids in smaller places is
the cost of administering them become disproportionate
to the amount of revenue that you raise.
So it was a marginal case in Sire and Cessna,
so anywhere any smaller, it just wouldn't work.
And again, I look over to colleagues, but I don't think
that district -wide bids can work because you've got to have
a continuous boundary.
Is that right, David?
David Stanley, Deputy CEO - 0:41:20
I'm not aware of what the restrictions are, but certainly
in discussions I've had at other authorities around business
improvement districts, they're very difficult to get
established, the time taken to establish them, you wouldn't be putting anything in place
until 27, 28, and it's an additional charge on businesses at a time, particularly now,
where there's a new valuation period, a new five multipliers instead of two. So I think
it would be more of a challenge for businesses to understand what their bills will be rather
than laying that on. But it is something that we can discuss and bring back to committee
if that's something they want to consider.
Councillor Lisa Spivey - 0:42:03
Yes, so thank you for that.
I was just curious to know.
I also didn't think that.
I hadn't seen any examples, but given the number
of smaller towns that we have,
it might have been something that was appropriate.
But I don't feel the need for it to come back.
But thank you for answering that.
And I think, you know, my comment would be,
I really welcome the point.
And actually, I really welcome the fact
that as we've just established
that economic development is a discretionary function of the council.
So I think actually having made the investment in ensuring that we have somebody here
and Paul has done a fantastic job in the last few years representing the district
and yeah, the literally a one -man band around and really encouraging that.
And I know that, you know, your work goes much further than you would have thought.
So thank you for all of that and I think it's really, really important.
I think that here as a district council and as a whole group that we really support the
hospitality and retail sector.
I guess my final comment would be that so much of what we can do and we can influence
is very marginal in the grand scheme of things because I think as the chair has just pointed
out, the success of a business in the retail sector is very much dictated by the footfall,
the customers and unfortunately things close down because people are going to them. If
you have a successful business and people are coming and spending their money there,
then the shop won't close in theory. But if there aren't enough customers coming through
the door, then that will make a difference. Where we live in very constrained economic
times and people are feeling the ongoing cost of living crisis, then no wonder that it is
difficult for those in the retail and hospitality sector and I know that in
the report you've mentioned that even the rise of wage lost drugs and has
meant that it has an impact and of course you know when we look at the cost
of food the cost of buying alcohol again will go up and not that you have to
drink to go out to have a good time but of course these are considerations so I
think you know anything that we can do to support the businesses is great but
that until we get more money flowing in UK economy then we will be consistently
faced with these issues.
Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:44:23
Councillor Tony Slater - 0:44:26
I've got Councillor Slater. Thank you Chair. An admin point first, may I compliment the
author on the level of photography? It's very good. But could, this is for all
could we not use templates with blocks of colour on pages because it's such a waste
of resources and ideally less colour generally. Picking up on a couple of
points my colleague made about Tethbury, there's a bullet on schemes to save
businesses money on overheads. I think we're sort of ignoring the elephant in
and this government policy of doubling council tax
for businesses.
Business rates.
Business rates.
And also the tax on jobs for young people
and part -time people is absolutely destroying
the industry.
And whilst it's good, I think any business person
that runs a business would be all over the costs
and looking at how they can save a bit of electricity
and bits and bobs.
I just wondered if there was anything specific relating to that comment more deeply.
Public transport we've mentioned and social media campaign, brilliant.
More events in city, more town events and activities.
is it's a hell of a job to get anybody to organise events.
TETBRI has two big events, usually in May,
and they do try other, they've got a festival, music festival,
et cetera.
But who is going to organise those?
I think anybody that's got an interest or time to do so
is probably already well involved
in doing the existing events.
So it's just a concern that we haven't got enough volunteers.
Dr. David Waddington Yeah, thank you.
Officer - 0:46:35
I can't take any credit for the photographs because they were all done by heart flood
or their people.
And similarly, I probably shouldn't take any blame for the blank page with the printing
on it.
That balances each other out.
I absolutely take your point about events and this is a number
of times in response to the questions.
In terms of taking forward these recommendations,
the resource human and financial will have to be found from some
or if they want to do it.
But I suppose the other thing that's worth saying is some
events don't necessarily have to take a huge amount of time
or effort or money to organise.
And one of the comments that I had from a hospitality business
in the district who I shared the report with in an early stage is
that's one of the things they have to do now is to put,
whether it's, you know, quiz nights or live music or anything
like that, they've got to put things on to attract customers
rather than just, you know, open the doors and sit back and
expect people to roll in because it, you know, doesn't happen
that way anymore.
Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:47:42
Well, thank you. I've got some sort of comments and questions. If we still feel we've got
time, I think Angus has also got some more questions. I was sort of, which you did bring
out in the report, the quirky nature of many of the premises. They're older, they're often
in historic buildings. It makes them sort of unsuitable for chains to come in, chains
which in fact has been one of the delights on the whole of the cost. I mean not so much in San Francisco, but in other places.
It attracts independence. But of course there are always self -repairing leases.
And I just think that more sort of can encourage landlords to be more realistic about the costs of taking on properties
which could have quite big repairs and often difficult to heat and keep the damp out.
I think we've all passed by in this time of the year particularly, the front windows
of shops and things like that all completely misted up and things all to
do with the condensation. So it is quite challenging. So any advice or
encouragement for landlords to be a bit more realistic. I actually, as I say
recently, I caught a person stealing a huge quantity of meat from a waitress
and it really, and he was made off before he could be intercepted. I don't know
what the level is across the Cotswolds,
but it really is the people in Waitrose who said,
oh, well, we just don't have a security guard anymore.
So that was dead easy for the guy who made off with the meat.
But I think the advantage is a lot of our shops,
just because they're smaller, all of the things,
it makes it more difficult for people to make a rapid S.
It's the way that the tills are placed and things.
I'm hopeful that the, because it's a horrible thing,
shoplifting, and people do tend to go
for the more expensive stuff, it's not just about taking a lollipop off the
whatever it is, it's rather bigger. Changing the use to residential which is
now sort of allowed under planning without much restriction, it doesn't
always have this desired outcome. There's a property in Camden which changed
from hospitality to residential but it's still not found a buyer after three or
four years so I mean I would discourage people always thinking that just because
they're going to turn the shop into a house that somehow that landlord is
going to do better. And I don't know what it is to encourage people, particularly the
ones, the shops, all hospitality in the centre of the town, sort of beating heart, to stay
as premises for commercial, whether it's hospitality or retail.
I just wanted on 4 .3 you've got town councils and local stakeholders. I didn't quite know
who the stakeholders would be that were going to be working together. I'm going to give
it all to you at once so then we don't have to go back to that thing. I was also interested
on 4 .5, I was interested to know about, inverted commas, forced auctions and whether the threat
of this will encourage the dillatory landlords who are just sitting on property and not doing
much with it to be more realistic. And finally, my thing was that parking for the hospitality
more than the retail seems to be a big issue because when people are going to
have a meal somewhere they're going to park for longer and I know that's a
particularly a big issue in Stowe. I mean I think if every settlement has its
different sort of issues whether it's parking whether it's you know but I
think that's definitely for Stowe is a worry and actually on that note I
shouldn't say but the lower car park, Maugham Street car park, a lot of people
there can't get the app to work there because there's not enough
mobile phone signals, so they race into the pub or whatever
and say to them, can you do it through your Wi -Fi?
So I think we've got a real issue with the Morkesbury car
park, the parking.
I mean, people get no total tizzy about it, which is not
a good way to start a happy afternoon or morning shopping
or going out to have a meal.
Before you answer that, what I have been thinking about during
the course of the meeting is that recommendation that we do encourage cabinet to write to our
MPs in support of our retail and hospitality. And also this suggestion that we might make
payment licencing, not charge for it to encourage hospitality premises to have more room for
customers. So that was my thoughts around that. If Paul wants to come back on that,
anybody else who wants to come back on those thoughts or recommendation and
whether Angus would like to come with another question. Thank you.
Officer - 0:52:30
Yeah I'll be very brief in response to your questions, Chair. So in terms of the
other stakeholders referred to in 4 .3, they could be business groups where they
exist or as a local authorities or agencies just depending on what the
particular circumstance is. As far as the high street rental auction is is
concerned that is a relatively new and and not widely used power that that
councils now have for commercial properties that have been vacant for
more than 12 months. So it's not something that we've looked at in
detail at this point in time or we'll feel the need to look at in great deal
to think the number of premises that are in those circumstances are very very
small indeed. Yeah I know that there was a motion passed with lost city to
pursue that and I'm not aware they've actually done anything in terms of
specific properties yet but it's a tool there that's in a box should we
need it at some point and in terms of parking I can take any comments around
parking away for colleagues although the committee be aware that the council has
recently adopted its new parking strategy so hopefully most of the
comments and concerns around that will have been taken up and included in that.
Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:54:07
Thank you for that. There is a premises in Trippinham, Camden which was a hotel and has been empty for about six years nothing happened
So it would be interesting to have that looked at
David Stanley, Deputy CEO - 0:54:21
You chair just to come back with a couple of points pavement licences
in the fees and charges schedule that was approved by cabinet a new application of a two -year licences 207 pounds and
renewal is £167. That's the charge. I don't know what the application numbers are, so
we'll find that out and tell you what the total take is on that.
And in terms of car parks, there will be a paper coming to Cabinet in March around the
awarding of a contract to whoever it is for the replacement of the 31 car park ticket
machines. I certainly know that Maria and Susan spent a thorough and jovial day in Coventry
assessing the latest tech in May of last year and what that was one of the issues
because there's an issue important on the water and with more was be road in
terms of the reliability of the internet connexion so they've been addressing
that as part of specification for new car park ticket machines. If I can just
Officer - 0:55:23
come back on that point so my understanding having checked with
colleagues is that there are 12 pavement licence issued within the district so
we're talking relatively small numbers.
Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:55:36
Thank you for that.
I think actually in many places there isn't much room
for putting chairs out on the pavement,
so therefore that sort of negates the opportunity.
So that's just one by the very nature of the place.
But going back to, I think we've actually had the pavement
licencing to a degree answered, and I don't think
there's probably much further to go on that.
But whether you would like a recommendation went forward
to the MPs in support of.
Whilst we are lucky, we seem to obviously
haven't got the vacancy that they do
in other parts of the country.
But that's nevertheless, it is quite vulnerable.
And a lot of these centres are quite small.
We're not talking about water on the water.
We bracket that one out.
That's slightly different.
But they are quite vulnerable to changes.
And if you do lose, as I think Councillor Jenkins has said,
at a certain degree, then the whole lot just rather loses.
And I think, literally, it is particularly sort of struggling
in some ways.
In temporary to a degree, too, I don't know.
We used to have a shop in temporary, so I was very fond
of it.
How does everybody feel about that?
You mean specifically just for MPs?
The Cabinet will write to the MPs the same way as they did
to the IHT.
I was going to propose a motion related to it.
It wouldn't be a recommendation, probably, but put it forward and we'll see.
Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 0:57:03
Thank you, Chair. It's only a motion in the sense that I'm suggesting a recommendation that we give to Cabinet.
And it builds on what you were saying and what I think others have said.
I think that we should be a premium experience economy.
People come to the Cotswolds, it's not a place where you come for Brighton.
And as far as both retail and, well, sorry, not retail, Blackpool.
Okay, Blackpool, brilliant place, right, for many people.
People come to Cotswolds of a certain type looking for a certain kind of experience.
And it's in some ways considered a premium experience.
And if we degrade the town centres, then that quality gets lost.
The reason for coming gets lost, and there are other reasons.
And I don't know all of the towns well, but I do know Morton in Marsh is struggling.
I think there's something of a crisis.
The internet has brought it on.
The centre of town is struggling, and I think other places are struggling too.
So, I personally think that as we envisage a growth, adding a few thousand houses to
a town might be great for business, might be great for the centre, but not if it's breaking
down the fundamental architecture of the town.
And if, for example, it's crowded out, so Moulton's a beautiful place, but it's crowded
out by cars.
We need to sort it, and I think there are other places too.
So my suggestion is that we do recommend to the Cabinet to consider an integrated strategy
for the Cotswolds on this, and in particular that they should advise the government of
what I think will be a looming crisis as we build more houses out and create further problems.
They should advise them that a proper approach to building communities and not just housing
willy -nilly, without that it could resolve, to resolve the issues, then without that we
will do harm.
And that's what I'm recommending that we should put to Cabinet to think about.
Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 0:59:28
Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:59:32
Well, it's a recommendation to cabinet. They will then make their decision on it. I'm just
seeing if we have got a recommendation roughly shaped up along those lines. They're perhaps
not quite as detailed. Do you want to... I'm sure Andrew can put it right. Thank you. I
mean Andrew, when you're ready. The one thing I did think was very useful, and I did in
my announcement, that this report is going to be included and be part and looked at during
the process of the local plan, I understand, so that it is informative of the local plan.
So I think that that is going it is a very important part of
the district our towns and cities as well city centres town and village centres
Officer - 1:00:27
Just to fill in the time and respond to that
So it's not so much that this report will be looked at as part of the local plan
Is that there will be town centre studies undertaken as part of the look like which will go into
I'm sure that we'll go into more detail and into some of the issues that were raised this
afternoon.
Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:00:41
I'm sure that this report of yours will be helpful in beginning that process.
Sorry, I shouldn't put it that way.
So yes, it's part of the process of looking and understanding it, but of course it's going
to go district -wide.
Have we got a recommendation?
Andrew Brown, Officer - 1:00:57
Not exactly, Chair, no.
So I'm just struggling because there's sort of a few things going on here.
So that Councillor Jenkinson talks about developing an integrated strategic plan.
Is that, that's not the local plan.
We're talking about something else or not?
Not quite.
No, yes.
Just for thinking of it.
For the town centre, town centre economics and community support.
Okay, thank you.
And then there's also a point here about writing to government, I think.
Yes.
Yeah, separate from writing to the MPs.
Yes, I'm suggesting that we should.
Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 1:01:40
I'm recommending we should write to the government and Gina's recommending that we should write to MPs and I think we should probably write to both.
Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:01:52
Well, I'm sure we will, this is a live recommendation which obviously has to be prepared properly
and should it be watching online, we will get there shortly. I personally feel that
It's to try and get the main concept over.
They will make their own decisions about how to do it,
but I think we are wanting to write to MPs and to the government
expressing our concern of how vulnerable the high street
for hospitality and retail are.
And make the point.
Yes, thank you.
Andrew Brown, Officer - 1:02:41
Is that sort of cutting to the trees? So I've got a bit of a list here. So the
pavement licences we're not taking forward as a recommendation. Okay so I've
got the council rights to the local members of Parliament inviting them to
lobby on behalf of local businesses in the retail and hospitality sectors. I
don't know if this one's been proposed but it's also in the report and has been
mentioned that the council continues to liaise with agents and landlords to
encourage them to let vacant properties.
Then the council considers how to minimise the loss
of retail space to residential in smaller towns
through the local plan.
Again, that's in the report.
And I think Councillor Cunningham mentioned that.
Consider, I haven't got the words, perfect.
Consider developing an integrated strategy
for town centre economies and community building
with a view to making the Cotswolds
a premium visitor economy.
something along those lines, right to government to advise them of the looming
crisis in the retail and hospitality sectors and how vulnerable advisory is.
Councillor Ian Watson - 1:03:45
Thank you chair. Yeah I think that first of all thank you for the report I think
there are not many levers that CDC can use in this. We're talking about busses
we're talking about governmental tax but I think that response is something we
can happily go with and I'd like to second that if Angus was proposing that.
Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:04:08
Councillor Spivey.
Councillor Lisa Spivey - 1:04:12
Just slightly, but I don't want to open another can of worms chair so apologies in advance.
I think we are a premium visitor economy and I look at the likes of Tetbury which Councillor
Watson so ably represents and you know the likes of there you talked about
clustering of businesses so if I wanted to look at anything antiques wise for
example, Tetbury, as a whole raft of those as does you know Morton and Marsh
actually in store the boat but you know so I think that I have to say I think
there is already that I wouldn't want there to be a perception that this is in
some ways that visiting the Cotswolds isn't already a fantastic visitor
experience and I think that our town centres already offer that and I think
of Syrinsester town centre which I visit regularly as a nearby resident I think
that we do offer an excellent so perhaps building on it although I take
Councillor Waring's point that in certain areas for those that actually live here
Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:05:19
that isn't always the lived experience. My comment on this would be that we
to say that perhaps that we're looking to continue the or enhance the offering
particularly from independent shops or somehow building
that because that is what is the miracle of the Cotswolds. It is largely
independent shops offering different things and that so without it being
necessarily always premium they are still even smaller the craft shops and
all sorts things who are offering something very interesting and very
attractive to a visitor. I'm just going to let Claire turn the cancer turn around.
Councillor Clare Turner - 1:06:03
Yeah I just wanted to touch on the wording which we propose which used the
phrase vulnerability of high street our high streets. I wonder if we can expand
that slightly because where a village has a single hospitality business a pub
or whatever it might be, and that gets lost.
That has quite a wide -reaching impact on that community.
So I wonder if we could expand the wording slightly
to include the communities that have vulnerable
hospitality businesses.
Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 1:06:31
Yes, I take the point I was trying to say that we are
a premium economy and we should maintain ourselves
as a premium economy.
But what I was also saying is that the history of the
ten years of Morten im Marsch, it's easy to see how easy it is to degrade it. And as we
grow our towns according to the government's insane requirements for us to grow, there
is a real danger that we will degrade that situation if we do not put it right. And if
we look at Morten im Marsch, we can already say that instead of going in and enjoying
ninety -five listed buildings in the high street, what you experience is a car park and a not
very nice looking one at the best of times. And although we have quite a number of antique
shops and art things, they are not in the most beautiful industrial place and they are
not in the most beautiful showcase. So we need to be able to create an environment for
premium businesses that can thrive and also serve the local communities.
Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:07:34
Thank you for that addition. Have we made some adjustments?
Andrew Brown, Officer - 1:07:43
Perhaps if the committee were happy to delegate to you final wording, that might help.
Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:07:47
Is everybody happy that I am? Thank you.
Well, thank you. So you can all support the idea that I'll have a final word, but I think we all understand the importance of it.
It really is. It's the, as I said, it's the beating heart. So thank you everybody for that.
Now we've got the big one. Well, not that this wasn't the big, sorry.
It was fair about it. But the word budget, budget.
No, I'm sorry. Take away your tiddly little feet.

12 Budget 2026-27 and Medium Term Financial Strategy

No, actually something that, anyway, thank you. It was excellent.
The budget is 2022 -6, the draught budget, 2022 -7.
An hour and a quarter has been allocated for this very important item
and I'm sure members of the committee will have no problem
filling that time slot.
Can I remind you to keep your questions as short and pertinent
as possible, and likewise the answers from the Cabinet
members and officers?
Can I now ask Patrick Coleman to introduce this item supported
by David Sandley, CDC's Deputy Chief Executive
and Section 151 Officer?
Please, Patrick, the floor is yours.
Councillor Patrick Coleman - 1:09:12
Thank you very much indeed, Chair. Yes, and what a pleasure it was to listen to town centres being discussed in your previous discussion, because business rates to some degree are involved and received from town centres and business rates are a really hot issue across the country.
It also gives me the chance to say that the number of vacancies, he's left the room now Paul, hasn't he? But in science at the town centre, there's evidence of the town centre not having enough retail premises for a healthy turnover.
We do have two empty banks, but we have two other banks that closed and have been refilled.
Not many towns can say that with a population of 20 ,000.
That's just because I'm not a member of your committee, so I couldn't say that in the debate.
More seriously, and getting to the nub of this, I feel very fortunate to be able to
present such a positive set of documents.
And I've made a few notes which are in document order as we go through, which I think are
worth highlighting.
And the first one says page six, paragraphs 14 and 15.
And sorry, 1 .4, 1 .5, excuse me.
Can see dots.
This is where the mention is given a fair funding 2 .0.
2 .0, actually.
Fair Funding 2 .0 has been eagerly awaited for many years, put off year by year for many
sound reasons and it's finally arrived.
And it's much more organised than I had expected.
There's clearly some serious brain work going on to try and simplify the plethora of grants,
specific grants, conditional grants, all kinds of wheezes and all kinds of
special pleading that local government quite rightly has put forward from its
different parts over the years. Undoubtedly this is simpler and the reason
I want to mention it is a little touch of history which is connected to this
council. We did have a man here just before my time called Peter Clark as a
Councillor for South Cerny on this caused him to resign and his previous
incarnation had been as a senior Labour man at the County Council in Gloucestershire
and he had led the fight for fair funding in education. The F40 group was
formed for education authorities and I am going somewhere which is relevant for
this. I was on the LGA, no I used to tend LGA education issues. LGA took this
seriously. They looked at it and they got some academics and said the problem is
the more different levels you have, the more the more different grants and the
special provision you have, the less likely you are to have consistent and fair outputs.
And that was at the root of poor funding of education authorities. It was never sold because
there wasn't the ability to reduce the number of grants. But this time, Fair Funding 2 .2
has clearly combined lots of grants and made a number of things simpler. So I'm not going
to say many positive things about the government because I'm too old to do that sort of thing.
But I will say that it was worth waiting for.
It was a pity it didn't get here earlier.
Now, the next note I have is in paragraph 11.
Five pound increase in council tax.
Because this council has had a historically low level
of council tax and you're stuck at five pound
and less 2 .99 % is more or less one or the other.
But anyway, there are now only 17 councils in the country
which are forced into this very low annual increase of five pounds a year.
And of course if the government plans go through there'll be none of those
councils left unless it applies in the Isle of Scilly, which I don't know.
More serious point is that we did a public consultation in the next paragraph 1 .12.
You'll see there that we had a suspicious, no not suspiciously, a very
precise agreed or strongly agreed of exactly two -thirds of respondents and
And somewhere else in the document does mention that we had a much better turnout, a much
better response this year than last year.
I think over 400 people, very public spirits in my view, took the time to go through our
consultation and give us answers.
Last year it was a much lower figure because we had a pending by -election for the council
which overlapped and we were, whatever the proper word is for Purdah, there was a limit
to how much we could do to promote consultation on the Counters budget at the same time as
there was an election activity going on. So two more I think I'll do. Paragraph 127. And
this is reserves. It starts on page 15, goes over to page 16 and you'll see that by my
We are starting with seven reserves and we're going up to eight.
Yeah, that's recommendations.
We just recommended that a new capital financing reserve is established.
And it's one of those rare occasions where I wish I hadn't just thrown away a piece of paper.
I showed this piece of paper to David the other day.
I said, I found this in my files from about five years ago.
It's got 47 reserves on it.
And he said, yeah, that's what he liked.
Put words in his mouth.
My understanding is that the previous administration had set up a lot of small reserves for all kinds of good reasons and my predecessor's
Finance lead on this council
My gave me in consultation with David, David Stanley or the other way around, whichever it is, managed to get those either closed
disposed of, mostly merged I suspect, so we've got a much simpler list now and
All of these reserves particularly are looking forward to housing delivery. I'm sure we all are. So that's another positive
And we turn finally in my not random, but personal selection of things to, yes, this
is a minor point at the top of page 20.
We'll always be able to remember how much is in our general fund revenue risk based
balance because it's 1 .760 million, which is the number of yards in a mile as you all
remember.
So we always will be able to memorise if we need to that significant sum of money in the
General Reserve. Now the even more serious bits which is I've been very
impressed and very grateful by the work done by David and his team on top of LGR
work going along at the same time. There is actually some LGR stuff further on
which shows that the districts have agreed to pay 45 % of the costs of doing
some important work with a county only doing 55 % which I think is incredibly
generous in districts. This was decided by officers being professional. I can't
that the seven leaders would have come to such a carve -up. Oh they did, they
accepted it, on your recommendation.
So, sorry, yes I mean district spending does look like petty cash when you're on
the County Council, I have to admit, but it isn't. It's really important and we
can do a lot with it and the fact that we won't, oh yes there's a picture
somewhere isn't there? Where's that lovely, there's a circle with four colours showing
that we aren't borrowing anything. You'll have to go much further through the document
to find it. Now, can I encourage you, Chair, to now let our Chief Finance Officer and Deputy
Chief Executive contribute a more structured set of remarks.
Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:16:47
Yes, before I do, thank you. I just wondered if you were working off the cabinet papers
with the numberings or whether it was the overview
and scrutiny.
Sorry, I've got to pick this up and be wary.
I'm sure it's the same one, but I think the numberings
on the pages are slightly different, just so that to
prevent any confusion as we go on through the discussions.
But it says something from...
Well, I don't know.
I've got not...
The 20 had a different one for me.
Sorry, me.
Anyway, thank you, David Stanley.
So I think perhaps we'll just make sure that we all find
the right pages.
So if we actually use the reference numbers,
it probably is easier than using page numbers
if that is an issue.
OK, thank you.
David Stanley, Deputy CEO - 1:17:31
Thank you, Chair.
If you indulge me for five minutes,
I was going to share a screen, which
was given the lateness of the papers being published.
And I don't think members got printed
pack of all 152 pages, probably until Friday at the earliest.
So there is a handful of slides I will show you.
I can circulate the wider slide deck.
It runs to about 20 slides, but it is all based on the
information that's in the report.
It's trying to ensure all members sort of get to a level
of understanding of why the position as set out in February
of last year isn't the position that's set out in February
of this year.
So if I just move this on.
So at the moment, the key sentence there is highlighted
in yellow.
This is a position as it was last week when we published
on the 28th of January.
It will change, and it will change for two key reasons,
which are shown at the bottom of that slide.
One is the final local government finance settlement
is not due to be announced until Monday of next week,
which is very, very late.
And the second reason, which will explain in part why Annex G
is missing from the PACS, which was highlighted as yellow on the
front sheet, Annex G has all the detailed budgets in.
We're currently working through the reconciliation of the
Publica contract sum that, as members may recall from the
detailed transition plan reports that were considered by council
It included a recommendation for that to be undertaken, a review of what was left, and
a rebasing of the contract.
That work has been completed, and we're now translating that using a very whizzy spreadsheet
that Alex Phillips has developed to ensure that the amounts shown against the budgets
that we hold match the contract sum so we can clearly track what we're paying for and
what service we're getting, and we can demonstrate that more adequately.
That piece of work wasn't completed by Wednesday.
But suffice to say that sections three, four, five, and nine are
unlikely to change.
The other sections will change, not necessarily all of them, but
numbers have a tendency to flow through, and then you need to
update some of the words around those numbers.
So there will be some changes come the final council report.
The key message is it's a lot better than we thought it was
going to be, a lot, lot better than we thought it was going to
be this time last year, even a lot better than we thought it
might have been in October.
And that's largely because whilst the government have said
you're in a group of authorities that is getting a minus 5 percent
cash floor, when you take minus 5 percent off a bigger number
than you started with, you still end up with a bigger number.
And that essentially is where we are at the moment.
So core spending power, which is the number the government
produce, which includes council tax,
but it also includes revenue support grant and other funding,
particularly around protecting us
through transitional arrangements,
that number is higher for 26, 27 than it was for 25, 26,
and remains higher in 27 28 and 28 29 those of you that looked at the tables
will see the 29 30 is completely different matter that is outside of the
current spending review period but would be of a significant concern should this
council continue to that point but more importantly will be a significant
concern to the unitary that includes Cotswold District Council and other
districts and the county because that is a significant level of support that is
being provided to this council. It's about 5 .2 million of transitional
protection in that final year. It's just short of 10 million across the county
and when you take that 10 million and add in the county's funding pressures
that is a significant challenge for any unitary in 2930. We've touched on business
rates in the previous report. There is a business rates reset. It's far, far more
complex this year in terms of estimating the business rates. There are now five
multipliers, not the standard two. A new three -year valuation period so all
businesses have had updated ratable values but in the same way they've also
had updated multipliers and there's a reduction in the level of transitional
protection they're offered. So a lot of change and we're making sure the bills
are right, not helped by the announcement last week that
there's some additional measures for pubs.
Welcome for pubs, not welcome for those that have to
administer the bills, because we still haven't had the detail
from the government as to how we would administer those
particular changes.
And confirmation of the council tax referendum is 5 percent.
Very briefly, there's some assumptions that we've made for
this report.
So we've made an assumption that the lowest level of business
rates that I could put into the report, which is the most
The incredible one is what's in the report, 1 .255 million.
When you compare that to the level of business rates
retention for the current year of over 5 million,
you can see what the reset and local government finance reform
has done to the amount of business rates we retain.
That number will improve because of the way a particular part of
the business rates around renewable energy flows through.
I've been very, very prudent in looking at extended producer
responsibility in future years.
Those of you that can remember the amount we got initially for
this financial year was $1 .502 million.
There was a subsequent announcement in or around
September with an additional $180 ,000 taking the total for
the year to over $1 .6 million.
We have $1 .71 million as the allocation for 26, 27.
But in my view, that won't be a sustainable growing pot of
funding as it's levied against producers in terms of the
packaging they use, the whole purpose of extended producer
responsibilities to remove that from the waste stream.
So I've taken a very cautious assumption that 60 percent of
whatever the number is for 26, 27, or 1 .7 million will flow
through the rest of the MTFS.
Treasury management income assumption for next year is 1 .2
million, so below what we're achieving this year, but in
light of reducing cash balances and reductions in interest rates
that are pencilled in for two reductions in the calendar year
2026, and the positive position is we will be using some of our
better financial position on the revenue side to make a direct
contribution to fund the waste fleet.
So prudential borrowing is not required to support
the capital programme in 26, 27 or 27, 28.
That then helps out 27, 28 because we remove the revenue
cost of doing that particular issue.
EMR reserves have been reserved and there's some
changes there in the report.
We've made some assumptions around pay budgets,
putting them up by 3 percent.
We've also included as part of our vacancy management
position as an authority, a vacancy factor that reduces effectively, we're not 100 % funding
every post, there will be churn as we've seen during the course of the year and that's a
way of ensuring that we're not over budgeting for staff, we're recognising that delay that
will be between people leaving and coming.
Fees and charges being reviewed, so on and so forth.
And finally, just to say on the council reports update, because that settlement's not due
until the night and that will be as late as later can be.
Some authorities will have already produced
and published their reports for council before that date.
It doesn't give us much time to hit the deadline
that we will have here.
We'll have completed the reconciliation
of the contract sum.
But the key point on this final settlement,
historically there's been very little, if any,
movement between provisional and final.
At best it's been two or three thousand pounds of movement where a formula has been adjusted.
Because everything's been changed with the provisional settlement and fair funding, there
is a risk that the government look at how councils have done across the whole spectrum.
There is a particular issue in terms of how business rates pooling gains have been allocated
into us, but not to the county.
that's created a problem for the county,
it's created a positive problem for us.
My view would be it's too late
to make any significant change for 26, 27,
but it might be something they look at for future years.
So my view, if there was significant change
introduced in the final settlement announcement next week,
that would be almost impossible for some councils
to adjust their budgets and their planning process
for but is to highlight it as a risk. But I'll stop sharing and allow members to
ask some questions. Oh ILB and OLB inner London boroughs and outer London
boroughs are my, sorry, my way of stopping writing words. They've got elections haven't they?
I believe because the proximity of Westminster to those London
boroughs they have the ear of ministers more than rural districts and counties
do.
Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:27:25
Thank you for that, that was very helpful. I wanted to know who would like to, Councillor
Cunningham has kicked off. Thank you.
Councillor David Cunningham - 1:27:37
Thank you Madam Chair. Thanks very much. I mean it's a much, much prettier picture than
we've had in the past. I think actually Patrick you should take full credit for this because
I think since you've taken the cabinet, it has improved unbelievably since the last pair
of hands that were holding it.
So I think full and absolute praise to you for that.
I think that's a sterling effort, sir.
You should have taken it over quicker.
We've been quids him earlier, I think.
And there's a lot of moving parts to this again still.
So I think for me, the main takeaway is that we're not going to have to borrow any money
at this point. I don't think we're going to be ruling it out necessarily, but at this
stage, I think we're all very relieved that we're not going to be doing that. I don't
think that the interest rate environment is quite as soft as people think it's going to
be. And I don't think it's necessary now that it's time to be borrowing. So that's great
news. I think that is great. One thing I would say is some of the forward numbers still rely
quite heavily on some major savings. Which of the groups is still looking at
that? Is that the lead group, the lead troop, the black six, whatever they're
called in the Cubs that you all sit on? I forget what it's called. So I'd just like to know if that is still
being monitored to ensure that we do deliver those savings, that's a
good thing. You and I have already discussed this but I do think it's worth
pointing out in table ES2 under 1 .18 there is an arbitrary amount of £750 ,000 for unavoidable
growth, which is not something I could find anywhere else in the paper. So that would
quite nice if we could, whether that's, it's in table ES2.
Pages 12 and 13, page 13.
13.
1 .18.
And there are three amounts of 750 ,000 for unavoidable growth.
It looks like an arbitrary number to me.
And I just would like, if possible, for the 151 to give the rest of the committee the
background on that.
The only other thing I wanted to raise was that in the very back of the pack, just to
I approve you do read it.
5 .1, how we borrow money.
There are plans to borrow in the future to fund the capital programme.
I think that's just a wording issue that we need to look at just to ensure that we say
if we needed to borrow in the future, that's how we would do it.
So just a question around the 750s and also are we still monitoring what happens about
the savings?
Thank you.
David Stanley, Deputy CEO - 1:30:25
So in terms of the savings, we have a savings and transformation programme that's been running,
and we've had a number of meetings with cabinet informally over the autumn to develop the
savings that have been included here.
And what we've, the approach taken with the MTFS is to really include those savings and
those transformation items that are actually credible and can be delivered.
So there is more to be done.
That's being, so the transformation size being led by Helen Martin, the Dirge for Communities
in Place, working closely with the leader and the cabinet member with Transformation
Responsibilities, which is Tristan Wilkinson.
So those will be developed over the course of the coming financial year, and it's really
important to do that because it wouldn't take much to knock the council off course.
And if there was a delay in LGR, the council would need to remain financially sustainable
for a further period of time.
In terms of the 750 ,000, I can see that explaining that more
in detail in the report will help.
It is an arbitrary figure.
It is a high -level estimate provided by the team in terms of
the additional charge that will be made to UBCO for the use of
the new waste fleet.
So that is a revenue cost that will come back to us in terms of
the contract sum, but it also then flows back to us as a deferred capital receipt.
So in terms of impact on the Council's numbers, it goes out and it comes back in, but it goes
out as revenue, it comes back in as capital.
But I can see that needs a little bit more clarity and explanation within the report.
And on your final point, I've already emailed the team to suggest a revision to the wording
for the council report along the lines of should the council need to borrow but
it's not envisaged to be borrowing within the figures set out within the
Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:32:29
report. Thank you. You're satisfied with that? Very good. I have Councillor Watson please.
Councillor Ian Watson - 1:32:37
Chair. David thank you very much to you and your team for preparing this. In a
world that is so dynamic it must be really tough, as well as running a business as well,
running CDC. So thank you for that. I appreciate your presentation because it answered quite
a lot of the questions that I came in free -armed with about borrowing risk, fair funding review,
business rates. I do agree with my colleague David here about the savings looking forward,
that maybe we can continue to monitor that as we go forward and track that to make sure
we are on track. But I have got a nice warm fuzzy feeling of stability. Much better than
I think anybody around this table expected. We can probably offer to loan GCC some money
At very interesting interest rates, if there are any takers.
I'm very happy. I would also like to...
I took a treasury training last week which helped me enormously with this.
There was an independent chap came in last Thursday, was it, I think.
So this was great preparation for the weekend looking at these numbers.
So thank you very much, David.
Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:34:05
Thank you. Who else?
Oh, Councillor Cunningham again.
But is there any... I mean, not that I'm going to deny you, of course not.
But was there anybody... No.
We'll let Councillor Cunningham go again and then maybe there will be other responses.
This is a five -second one.
Councillor David Cunningham - 1:34:24
The £200 ,000 loan, is that something we can talk about in here or do you want to take that offline?
We can do that if you like.
David Stanley, Deputy CEO - 1:34:32
Is this the conversion of the loan to Cotsway Housing Association?
Which page?
David Stanley, Deputy CEO - 1:34:45
So the only piece of borrowing we've got is the climate bond.
It's the balance that remains on that.
that was half a million that was taken out two or three years ago that will be
fully repaid by the end of 27 28 financial year
Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:35:11
Councillor Clare Turner - 1:35:15
just really quickly to echo what council Watson said as well the training
was helpful and thank you your your report answered my questions as well so
So, yeah, there's a lot in the written report and I appreciate all the effort that goes into making it as clear as possible for us.
Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:35:30
Councillor Jenkinson, have you got... Oh, yes.
Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 1:35:37
In the absence of anyone else, I have some questions.
Yes, can I echo the comments that have just been made by Councillor Watson and Councillor Turner?
I also appreciate the training session, that was very helpful.
We are supposed to be a critical friend, so before I become the
critical part of the friend, I'd like to just emphasise the
friend part.
I've really appreciated the work that you've done on this as a
team and yourself, and I'd like to echo the remarks that other
people have made about how positive it is that there's been
a positive move for the council.
That's excellent.
And so anything else is in that context.
I had a number of specific questions that I could ask
around are you sure about this and are you sure about that
and is there contingency.
I'm disinclined to actually ask them because I actually know
that the way that we manage things means that they're really
just playing the game of asking these questions when I'm pretty
sure that you do have the confidence about it and you are
managing it and the council is.
If time exists and we have to fill it up, then I'll ask them.
But for the moment, I'd like to put them to one side.
So what I'd like to do is just direct you to one particular point.
In the audit committee meeting last week, we heard the remarkable, for me, remarkable
statement that CDC has an unbelievably low level of debt.
It was emphasised an unbelievably low level of debt, which on the whole seems to be a
good thing.
But playing with a critical friend, I also note that in the unenclosed measure of performance,
we sit bang in the middle.
Bang in the middle might look like a very good, solid, safe, structured place and an
excellent result.
But sometimes, from my experience of business,
if you try and be too safe, you can end up becoming unsafe
because you are not, for example, investing appropriately
to take account of changing circumstances
and changing opportunities.
And if you don't do that, you can slip a bit,
and that can come back and bite you as expensive later on.
So the question I'm really exploring is this.
We have an unbelievably low level of debt.
We do have some items which are outside capital.
They're in the revenue area, like vacancies in compliance,
and I think compliance is one of the most biggest issues that we
have at the moment.
And we have a limited portfolio of investments that generate
returns for us.
We have some, but it's not been something we've invested in,
particularly.
And there's opportunities in that area.
Do you think it's possible that given an unbelievably low level of debt,
there are opportunities we might be missing
that would be advantageous to our settlements and our council in the future?
And is that something you consider?
And if it is, what processes do you have to do so?
David Stanley, Deputy CEO - 1:38:56
So just to address, I suppose, the capital financing position
of the authority.
So without the capital expenditure plans,
we wouldn't be either using capital receipts
or capital borrowing.
So it's the ambition of the capital programme and how
the administration or members more widely want to make
that longer -term investment either into assets,
be it land buildings, waste and recycling fleet, or other things.
The increase in the capital programme and its spend gives rise to the need to borrow, because
if you don't have internal resources like capital receipts or revenue or other internal
money, then you go to prudential borrowing.
As I see it, the Council has used the capital receipts that it had from the
stock transfer in 1997 rather than borrowing. So a lot of its capital
expenditure plans over the last 20 -30 years have been financed from those
internal resources. When you look at the Bank of England base rate over a
longer -term period, it will be around about 6%. It might fluctuate a little
bit up and down.
I am old enough to remember Black Wednesday when it went up
twice to 15 percent, but I'm also young enough or old enough
to remember when the bank base rate was .25 and everyone said
it can't go any lower than that, and it did.
It went to 0 .1 percent.
So there can be quite extreme fluctuations in that rate, but
over the last 30 years, probably the rate of borrowing has been
higher than what the council has probably been able to
achieve on its treasury management.
So therefore, it makes more financial sense to use
internal resources rather than to borrow.
That said, there might have been an opportunity in the
mid -2010s up to about 2021 when that long -term borrowing
rate was unbelievably low.
You could have borrowed 50 -year money for around
about 1 .6 percent.
However, the council did not have any viable capital
expenditure plans to make those in that level of investment
that required borrowing.
So it's really that that determines how the council looks
at its capital financing position.
So whether it's chosen to be debt -free, and there's a number
of authorities that have chosen that for a number of reasons,
or whether it's taken an alternative route and taken on
debt and it's managing to service that debt.
The issue, as members will have seen from authorities that
haven't managed that adequately, is that gets you into a very
difficult financial position where you've borrowed to do
certain things.
Those things haven't happened quite the way that you planned
or in the time that you wanted them to happen, and that's put
you under significant revenue pressure.
So I'm comfortable in terms of where we are, in terms of how we
financed historically, we can't unpick that,
but given the limited life this council has got
and given the position of the council will find itself in
from May, 2027 with the election of a shadow authority,
what we call a section 24 directive,
our ability to make that decision to borrow,
to invest will be severely curtailed.
So in terms of where we are,
I don't think that being a low borrowed authority
has necessarily held us back because if there had been the desire to make that type of expenditure
investment then that's where the council would have gone.
Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 1:42:46
So if I can just follow up. What I understand you saying is that we traded on the sale of
social housing stock that we owned, except we didn't call it
that at the time.
And although we've got, for example, those who consider it
would be very attractive if we could get into that market again
and start to own more property and push it, that's not
something you'd like to consider in the next few years as we move
towards a unitary authority.
But my concern is, my question was really, do we actually have
programme of considering these kinds of options. Because what I'm mindful of is that if we
don't do any planning for that and start to set something up in the time that's left,
when we get to the unitary there will be all sorts of things that they'll be worrying about
and it certainly is unlikely to be what is it that's needed in this neck of the woods
to take care of it as a big priority.
Perhaps Councillor Spivey will prove me wrong.
But if we did have a clear plan for what could be done,
that could be quite advantageous.
So my question isn't that I'm inventing something
that we should be investing in off the hoof.
I'm saying are we investigating that option as a strategic part
of our investigation of budgeting?
David Stanley, Deputy CEO - 1:44:17
So in terms of social housing provision and whether this
authority -
Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 1:44:22
Just to be clear, I used that as an illustration,
not as this solution.
I'm not making any solution at all.
David Stanley, Deputy CEO - 1:44:29
No, I'm using this as a way of, I suppose,
explaining how a particular aspect of that would work.
So if the desire of the council was to provide more social
housing, we've currently got a less interventionist approach
with social housing provision by working in partnerships with
other registered providers such as Bromford.
The council could choose and has considered in the past ways in
which it could have a more direct influence on that by
being a stock holding authority.
As soon as the authority holds more than 200 socially rented
houses in its general fund, it must set up a housing revenue account. That in
itself is a challenge and you need the scale to be able to do that. So Stroud
District Council over the border have around about 5 ,000 socially rented homes.
Cheltenham have a few more than 5 ,000 that Cheltenham Borough Homes have and
Bristol have got several thousand. The management of that stock is quite a
considerable undertaking at that scale.
So from my time at Stroud District Council,
you would argue is probably about a third of the Council's
business, but in the way in which you account for that,
all the rental income that comes from those tenants' ring fence
to the HRA, it has to have a 30 -year business plan that shows
it can pay back any debt that it's taken on.
In order for the Council to be more interventionist,
you would have to set up a housing company.
That takes a period of time to set up and housing companies that local authorities have set up historically
Haven't exactly delivered the benefits that were intended. I'll give you the example of brick by brick from Croydon
as one end of the extreme
It would take several years to establish the housing company with with enough scale that it would be self financing
Whilst that housing company is being set up and achieving that scale, it will be dependent
on the local authority for financial support, which then all it does is transfer the risk
to council taxpayers rather than to tenants.
So that's a long -winded way of saying, yes, some of those options have been considered,
but I suppose what's determined that is the ability to achieve the objectives in a limited
amount of time if you took a longer term view of 10, 15 years as Eastley Borough Council
has done with their housing solution, it is taken, they are now in the position where
they're developing, but that's taken about 20 years to get to that position.
That's not where this council is and it's not, I don't think it's something the administration
said since I've been here has wanted to explore.
Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 1:47:19
So thank you, David.
So you've given an example of one and suggested that that
demonstrates that that particular one might not be an
appropriate path for us, which could be.
But my question was a general one, and it sounds like what
you're saying on the general one is, yes, we do have as a council
a process that with appropriate energy does look at options,
reviews them on an ongoing basis, and so far has not
actually found one that it wants to take up.
Sorry, Madam Chair, I think...
Councillor David Cunningham - 1:47:58
That was my question.
Yeah, no, I agree, but I think in reality the Council has a set of its priorities. Those
priorities then have projects within them. They are normally delivered just within the
general capital receipts that we have anyway.
Before your time, we did look at borrowing a huge amount of money for some projects,
but when those projects were looked at in more detail, it was decided that it wasn't
the prudent thing to do.
So I think the process, as far as I'm aware, goes, these are the council priorities, this
is what we want to deliver, this is how we'll deliver them, this is how we'll pay for them.
So that process goes on I think all the time when we're looking at the priorities.
Councillor Patrick Coleman - 1:48:46
It does give me a chance to reflect on the truth of a statement made, gosh, probably 60 years ago
by a great man called Gerry Fines, Gerald Trussella -Winkham Fines officially, but always known as
Gerry Fines who became one of the great railway managers. He managed tours of British Rail regions,
eventually giving up his career when he wrote a book without authority of the
British Railways Board. That book became a bit of a Bible for those of us in 1970s
starting as traffic management trainees, sorry graduates traffic management
trainees of the British Railways Board. And the phrase above all that came out
of it was for some reason memorable was don't reorganise don't don't don't when
you reorganise you bleed. Now railways are quite an urgent thing, councils are urgent
in different ways and some reorganisations can't be avoided and
obviously the one we're on now can't be avoided because it's the government's
decision and probably a good one but it's going to be really difficult to
keep the speed that we're at now of delivering whatever our priorities are
they're probably in the corporate strategy
and the corporate plan.
And having looked at which are the important ones,
if there's any way of avoiding significant delay
in progress, for example, on social housing
during local government organisation,
I'll be really impressed.
I'm also grateful to be standing for reminding
some of the difficulties there are nowadays
in directly providing social housing,
as opposed to the happy days when most district councils
but not Stroud, and perhaps not Cheltenham,
sold them off and found themselves debt free for decades. That's where the last
of our receipts are now, in partly, mostly in three widely spread commercial
premises and not amounting to a huge asset in total. So if there's a way of
smoothing the path for our successors and getting off so that they can get off
to use a PR person's phrase, a running start,
or one of those things when they're launched
in a couple of years.
We should obviously find that way.
And I'm sure officers at county and district
are already thinking in those terms.
But it's much easier said than done
because reorganising is such a complicated thing.
And one of the ways you believe, of course,
is people who might have given you 10 years of work
might now decide only to give you a few,
couple of years work and retire.
how we can prevent that if we wish to prevent it is another issue which we
Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:51:35
can't go in today. Thank you, Chair. Thank you. I've got Councillor Slater, please.
Councillor Tony Slater - 1:51:47
Thank you, Chair. I share my, unusually share my colleagues warm and fuzziness on on the
financial state of the council, which is good.
So just a couple of tiny points for clarification, if I can.
On table seven, which is on page 42, the savings items.
Yeah, and the car parks, we've got 129 ,000,
which I believe is the increase
that's going through at the moment.
So for the car parking strategy in 28, 29,
that goes that increase is another 77 % so I'm guessing there's a another
increase due and a further 40 50 odd thousand in 29 30 so I guess or no will
be just adequate for that but what more broadly on this table once this budget
becomes the final version rather than draught will those savings then be baked
into the final figures.
Just finally on page 78, which is Annex D,
I noticed that the fuel bunkering, which we discussed
at length in the last ONS, is 100 ,000,
but I thought we were looking at 60 ,000.
So perhaps if we could clarify that, please.
David Stanley, Deputy CEO - 1:53:18
So just in terms of the savings shown in table 7 on page 42, they would get included in the
final MTFS.
Changes around fees and charges are an annual decision for cabinet to make and they made
that decision in January of this year around those fees.
I think with the introduction of new car park ticket machines,
that's why we've held the position in 2728 to review that
as those machines will give much more reliable data in terms of
how they're getting used and in terms of the car parking strategy.
In terms of Annex D, the estimate for field bunkering has been
increased from 60 to 100 ,000.
That is my intervention.
It's to allow adequate headroom for some of the additional works
that may be required given the sensitivity on environmental
impact of putting a fuel bunker in, given its location.
That's not because we've had a quote that says it's going to be
100 ,000.
I think the broad summary is 60 didn't feel enough, 100 feels
about right.
And of course we'll only spend what is required to be spent,
but it's to ensure that we don't have to come back and put
another finger in the air, so to speak.
Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:54:45
Thank you for that.
I was going to ask you about the fuel banquering, too,
because I'd noticed that discrepancy in the figure.
On the same sort of theme of the UBICO,
and maybe hopefully with the new fleet being able to use the HVO,
I just wondered what the sort of the the says is a differential between the diesel and HBO
If it arises beyond 15p
Or have you set a figure about when you would decide to mix the two fuels or even worse perhaps have to just go to diesel
I know that the oil prices at the moment are sort of falling around the world
It's a very you know. It's a market which changes fast all the time
do you have, have you chosen a particular thing
of when you have to make decisions on that?
And once I get through all the things,
actually I did ask for, I was gonna ask about
any further funds likely to support
more social and affordable housing.
I don't suppose that's, whether from government
or elsewhere, but I don't see that that's very likely
at the moment, because it's been disappointing
how few houses or how many houses we've made
to support through that.
And the other, the final question, really, was on the budget consultation.
I think there's a bit missing on page 146.
It says question two, council tax.
It doesn't actually give you the thing.
I think it was are you happy with it going up.
So I think there's just a bit which needs to be included there.
A small matter, but it doesn't make much sense of the answers.
But you said, I think somebody said that there were, what was
it, 600 responses.
But when I count up the responses, 171 is what I've
counted up, I would agree.
So is that more than we have had in previous years, or is it
about the same?
So taking those questions in reverse, because that's how I
David Stanley, Deputy CEO - 1:56:50
remember, in the year before this one, I think off the top
of my head, 42 responses.
And again, that was in a pre -election period.
The year before that, which is probably the last year that the consultation was fronted
by the cabinet member at the time, that was a bumper year with over 550 off the top of
my head responses.
So this year's 171 represents a much better level of response
than 42 the previous year, and that's largely down to the way
in which the communications team utilised social media
and kept ensuring that the public and residents were able
to respond, and members should recall there was some overlap
with the local plan consultations,
So we're mindful of starting it after and ending it after
to ensure that residents weren't confused.
If you can remind me of the earlier questions.
David Stanley, Deputy CEO - 1:58:00
When the description is in the fuels
Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:58:02
means that you think you have to think again
David Stanley, Deputy CEO - 1:58:05
about the budget on that.
In terms of the operational aspect,
We use around about 508 ,000 litres of fuel a year.
If we put a fuel bunker in that holds 20 ,000 litres,
that should give you a sense that every other week,
UVCO would need to be ordering either HVO or diesel.
So in terms of the figure that I've used as a 15 -pence
differential, that's because that gave you a sense of
maintaining the revenue impact of the switch to HVO within a number, which is around 100 ,000,
the way in which the decision will need to be taken will need to be relatively fleet
of foot, relatively agile, and it might be impacted not just because the price of diesel
has gone up, the price of HVO has gone down. It might be the availability of bulk ordering
for any particular HVO supplier that can demonstrate they haven't used non -sustainable HVO in the
tank is going to be a challenge.
So that was partly why a cash figure has been put in, but I'll be working with Helen Martin
and Peter to understand how the mechanics of this will be working, because it won't
be the council procuring, it will be UBICO procuring, because we're not going to go down
to the depot in South Cerny every other day and cheque what
the tank has got in it.
By the same measure, I have included within the contingency
some risk on fuel price anyway, because given where fuel prices
have been lowered and the assumption that Yubico have
provided to us in terms of a pump price is around about 145
a litre when you include the VAT.
As we know, that that can be quite volatile.
Members may recall two or three budget years ago where the
additional cost of fuel was something like a
900 ,000 -pound increase on what we spent with UBICO.
I don't think that's where we'll be.
That's not, that was partly in response to the invasion
of Ukraine, but I think at 145 a litre, that's about
where it's been held over the last six months or so, it has dropped down but
Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:00:27
there is some risk around that. Thank you. Was there any other questions that
anybody wanted? I did feel that there's a particular recommendation.
It's been very helpful to go through these figures so thank you and
thank you both you and Patrick for your answers. We can recommend that we're
happy for this report to go to. Would you like to actually put a formal recommendation
in or does Councillor Evony want to say something? No? I thought your hand is not poised on...
Maybe it's not.
Do we do want to give a formal recommendation that we're happy with this report? But anyway,
well, thank you. It really was, you know, despite being long and loads of numbers, it
was very readable and understandable, so thank you very much. I think we all felt that. We've
only got one thing left to do. I know we've gone up to our two hours, but it is only to

13 Work Plan and Forward Plan

look at the future work plan. And I just, if you're happy to move on to that, there
was just one thing that you've all seen the work plan. I was suggesting that we actually
look at the SIL report, which is going to be coming to cabinet for council. SIL is really
a very important bit of extra money that our local communities can use. We all know we've
got a lot of development coming up in the future and I thought it would be useful for
Oviur and Scrutney to have cited that ahead of the cabinet. I just wanted to know what
else you feel or whether anybody's got any other suggestions of what they would like
coming towards O &S.
Good.
No, okay, Councillor Turner first and then I'll look at all the other waving hands.
Councillor Clare Turner - 2:02:11
Just a question, Chair, as to at the bottom of our work plan, the Ecological Emergency
update has a date to be confirmed at the moment, but there are a couple of ecological related
items on the Cabinet's March meeting, so I just want, it was a question as to why we
haven't got that scheduled in for March as well.
Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:02:32
Andrew Brown, Officer - 2:02:37
I'm not entirely sure. I think that's been due to staff sickness, but I think I'd better
come back with a written response.
Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:02:46
Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 2:02:49
Thank you, Chair. I wonder how fellow members consider the following. We've noted that we
have a very large agricultural sector in this county. We've been looking at the business
area of tourism and hospitality and retail in the towns, but we have thousands and thousands
of businesses in the form of farms, and it goes to the question of the ecology, which
is a critical area. Members may not know that in the last week or so, the government via
DEFRA have issued a report which they tried to hold back, but was released on a freedom
of information. It is a national assessment of the criticality of ecology related to farming
in particular for the future of this country and the world, and it considers that we are
in deep crisis and that if we carry on in this trajectory we'll be in an utter mess.
That's not the terminology they use, but that's what it means. So it's extremely important
that we deal with it and we claim to be, we tend to be green to the core and we have this
major sector. So I'd be interested in, I'd like to see us take a look at this particular
economic sector and how we can make a difference. I've been speaking to a number of people about
this and I think there's room for us to consider it. And it could be linked to ecology, it
could be linked to economic development.
But at some point, we've got thousands of farmers
who are in considerable distress, high levels of concern.
They are suffering as a group of people.
And the impact, there's a wide range of experts
claiming that there's no single area
that could have a bigger impact on health,
financial outcome, climate outcome, and ecological outcomes
than transforming farming and we have a lot of it in this country and in this district.
Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:05:06
Thanks.
Councillor David Cunningham - 2:05:12
The next two meetings seem to be a bit unbalanced. Can I just say that? You've got
five items in April and one item in March, which I think seems
yeah a bit...
The main reason I'm asking is because I'm not coming to the March meeting.
How is it you get away with a half an hour meeting when I'm not coming?
But the one I'm going to be here in April is going to be seven hours.
I'm going to be in the sleeping bag when I come in.
That's the reason.
I bet it is.
Could we not, you're getting subbed on that as well.
Joe's not coming to that.
Is it possible that we could maybe move some of those around?
Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:05:48
Things which was going to be considered because it's still coming to cabinet in March.
So that would come into the March meeting.
I agree with you.
It was looking a bit thin, gruel.
And for those of us who are missing it,
but because I don't know whether first of all,
Andrew wants to say anything or whether Councillor Jenkinson
first.
Andrew Brown, Officer - 2:06:11
And so just just on that point.
So for April you're correct at the moment.
There's five items three of those I believe are tracking
to the truck into a cabinet meeting.
So with the other two we could see whether those could be brought forward
to your March meeting but that would depend...
Just the open one or just the open one?
Yeah, so I can follow up and see if there's any chance of getting those, the planning
enforcement and the LGR update sooner but that would be subject to the
officers being able to deliver that work sooner than they were expecting.
Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:06:43
Further to Councillor Jenkinson's suggestion, I mean my understanding is
that we don't have any particular officer who's got the resources to do this. I mean,
even if, because it's obviously something which would be welcome to do, but it is quite
a big project. We were very much helped by Winter Flood in the report we heard earlier.
I mean, do we either have the resources, the know -how, and is this felt to be, I'm going
look at the leader of the council maybe for his feelings on that. I'll let Councillor
Jenkinson come in.
Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 2:07:26
I took the trouble of asking when we were looking at the situation with Paul James,
I took the trouble of asking was this a statutory responsibility and the answer was no, we decided
to work with the economy although it was not a statutory responsibility and we chose to
spent invest money in having an officer because it was really important to us to do that.
So my question is, given that we have a very large agricultural sector, might this also
be something important? We also chose to pay money for a consultancy to investigate the
issue. Might this also be an important issue that we look at? Because I can tell you that
there are thousands of farmers suffering and we are genuinely facing critical crisis. I'm
Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:08:15
I would just be having a quiet word with Andrew. He feels that, and obviously Angus would be
welcome to join it, we would have a work plan meeting because there are issues on this and
we can actually also get feedback on whether the cabinet feels that this is something that
they would find useful because we are obviously doing this in order to support the cabinet,
to support full council. And so that would be I think the best steps forward to doing
So we'll set up that meeting and we will discuss that going forward.
But so, yes, at the moment, still, there may be other ones
moved into March as well to try and unload a bit of April.
So the work plan, as we know, is always a fluid document,
always changing, things change.
So I think that's, unless anybody's got anything else
that they would like to add, I wanted to say thank you very much.
I know somebody did beg and borrow saying,
I think 10 past six, you can't complain too much.
Thank you very much indeed.