Overview and Scrutiny Committee - Monday 17 November 2025, 4:00pm

Overview and Scrutiny Committee
Monday, 17th November 2025 at 4:00pm

Agenda

Slides

Transcript

Map

Resources

Twitter

Forums

Speakers

Feedback

Votes

Speaking:

Start of webcast

Share this agenda point

1 Apologies

Share this agenda point

Councillor Gina Blomefield
Julia Gibson, Officer
Councillor Gina Blomefield

3 Declarations of Interest

Share this agenda point

Councillor Joe Harris
Councillor Michael Vann
Councillor Tony Slater
Councillor Nick Bridges
Councillor Clare Turner
Councillor David Cunningham
Councillor Angus Jenkinson
Councillor Gina Blomefield

5 Matters Arising from Minutes of the Previous Meeting

Share this agenda point

Actions from OS 13 Oct

Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Gina Blomefield

6 Chair's Announcements

Share this agenda point

7 Public Questions

Share this agenda point

Councillor Gina Blomefield

8 Member Questions

Share this agenda point

Officer
Councillor Gina Blomefield

9 Report back on recommendations

Share this agenda point

Cabinet response to Scrutiny recommendation on Local Plan Reg 18

Councillor Gina Blomefield

10 Work Plan and Forward Plan

Share this agenda point

11 Leisure Contract - Freedom Leisure

Share this agenda point

Guest
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Cabinet Member
Guest
Guest
Public Speaker
Officer
Public Speaker
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Clare Turner
Public Speaker
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Nick Bridges
Councillor Gina Blomefield
David Stanley, Deputy CEO
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Nick Bridges
Public Speaker
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Joe Harris
Public Speaker
Councillor Joe Harris
Officer
Councillor Gina Blomefield
David Stanley, Deputy CEO
Councillor Joe Harris
Public Speaker
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Officer
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Angus Jenkinson
Cabinet Member
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Clare Turner
Public Speaker
Councillor Clare Turner
Councillor Gina Blomefield
David Stanley, Deputy CEO
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Public Speaker
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Nick Bridges
Public Speaker
Councillor Angus Jenkinson
Councillor Gina Blomefield

12 Car Parking Strategy

Share this agenda point

Cabinet Member
Officer
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor David Cunningham
Cabinet Member
Councillor David Cunningham
Cabinet Member
Councillor David Cunningham
Cabinet Member
Officer
Councillor David Cunningham
Cabinet Member
Councillor David Cunningham
Cabinet Member
Councillor David Cunningham
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Tony Slater
Cabinet Member
Officer
Councillor Tony Slater
Officer
Officer
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor David Cunningham
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Nick Bridges
Councillor Joe Harris
Cabinet Member
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Clare Turner
Cabinet Member
Councillor Clare Turner
Cabinet Member
Officer
David Stanley, Deputy CEO
Cabinet Member
David Stanley, Deputy CEO
Cabinet Member
Officer
Cabinet Member
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Angus Jenkinson
Cabinet Member
Councillor Angus Jenkinson
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Cabinet Member
David Stanley, Deputy CEO
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Officer
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Joe Harris
Cabinet Member
Officer
Councillor Gina Blomefield

12 Car Parking Strategy

Share this agenda point

13 Local Government Reorganisation Proposal

Share this agenda point

Councillor Mike Evemy
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Joe Harris
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor David Cunningham
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Officer
Councillor Joe Harris
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Mike Evemy
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Angus Jenkinson
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Tony Slater
Councillor Mike Evemy
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Gina Blomefield
David Stanley, Deputy CEO
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Tony Slater
Councillor Mike Evemy
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Clare Turner
Councillor Mike Evemy
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Angus Jenkinson
Councillor Mike Evemy
Councillor Angus Jenkinson
Councillor Angus Jenkinson
Councillor Gina Blomefield
David Stanley, Deputy CEO
Councillor Angus Jenkinson
Councillor Mike Evemy
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Angus Jenkinson
Councillor Mike Evemy
Councillor Angus Jenkinson
Councillor Mike Evemy
Councillor Gina Blomefield
David Stanley, Deputy CEO
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor David Cunningham
David Stanley, Deputy CEO
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor David Cunningham
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor David Cunningham
Councillor Mike Evemy
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Angus Jenkinson
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Officer
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Angus Jenkinson
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Mike Evemy
Andrew Brown, Officer
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Mike Evemy
Andrew Brown, Officer
Councillor Mike Evemy
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor David Cunningham
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor David Cunningham
Councillor Mike Evemy
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Joe Harris
Councillor Gina Blomefield
David Stanley, Deputy CEO
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Angus Jenkinson
Andrew Brown, Officer
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Councillor Gina Blomefield
Webcast Finished

Select an agenda point

Scroll with video

Disclaimer: This transcript was automatically generated, so it may contain errors. Please view the webcast to confirm whether the content is accurate.

1 Apologies

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:00:44

Good afternoon.

A warm welcome to everyone present, including any member of the public, whether in person

or watching online.

We have got some interesting feedback.

I also want to acknowledge and welcome the cabinet members and officers who will be giving

their reports to all the members of the committee and also the officers present to support the

overview and scrutiny committee in its functions.

Before we go any further, just to remind you of the usual housekeeping, the far exit is

over there.

The moves are just out around to the left.

We're not expecting any fire alarm, so that should be okay.

Please can everyone turn off or put on silent any mobile device we were

caught out on that last meeting so just to remind you if anybody wishes to film

the proceedings that is permitted providing it does not disrupt

proceedings. So taking going on from that do we have any apologies for the meeting?

Julia Gibson, Officer - 0:01:50

We have apologies from Councillor Lisa Spivey and Councillor John Waring there

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:01:59

are no substitute members. Thank you for that. Before we go further into the main

3 Declarations of Interest

body of the meeting could each of the members of the overview and scrutiny

committee introduce themselves. Councillor Harris. Good afternoon everyone I'm

Councillor Joe Harris - 0:02:11

Councillor Joe Harris I'm the district councillor for St. Michael's Ward in

Councillor Michael Vann - 0:02:20

Councillor Tony Slater - 0:02:24

Simon Sespar. Michael van Fairford North. Tony Slater Grumbold Ash with evening.

Councillor Nick Bridges - 0:02:27

Councillor Clare Turner - 0:02:34

Councillor David Cunningham - 0:02:37

Nick Bridges, Watermore. Clayton Blockley Ward. David Cunningham, West Ham's Porter from

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 0:02:42

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:02:49

Fosridge. Angus Jenkinson from Moreton East and Todenham. Hello, I'm Gina Bloomfield,

Camden and Vale. Now, does anybody have any declarations of interest on items due to be

discussed at this meeting? No, that's very good. And then could we look at the last minutes

5 Matters Arising from Minutes of the Previous Meeting

of the previous meeting, does anybody have anything that they would like to bring to

the attention or any changes?

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:03:17

Content with those minutes, could I have a proposer and seconder please? Michael Van

proposes a seconder, Councillor Jenkinson. And could we go to the vote for those people

who were present at that meeting?

That is unanimous for those present.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:03:40

Matters arising.

Very helpfully, democratic services have provided an update on these

and they will be included in the minutes so anybody can read them

and follow up on that.

So I won't read them out here.

There were quite a few.

I also was pleased that they included confirmation

that an annual report on the registered providers,

housing associations, updating CDC on the property maintenance

and decarbonization plans, sales of affordable homes

on the open market or right to buy,

and the delivery of new affordable homes.

In addition, Bromford have provided members

with contact numbers for the teams operating

in their neighbourhoods.

We also have the breakdown on returns from money invested for the benefit of CDC, which

shows a healthy overall return of 4 .8%.

6 Chair's Announcements

To go on now to the Chair's announcements, we're delighted today to welcome Freedom Leisure

to our meeting, and we look forward to hearing from them shortly.

The car parking strategy is very clear and detailed, so thank you for this report.

And just a quick reminder that we have an additional O &S meeting on the 1st of December

due to the amount of important issues that needed to be covered before 2026.

Thank you all committee members to agree to attend this.

We now move on to public questions.

Do we have any public questions?

7 Public Questions

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:05:16

No public questions.

8 Member Questions

Member questions. I'm aware we've got Councillor Hall -Wilson in the room, and she did provide a question for Freedom Leisure.

And I just wanted to cheque with her that she's happy for that question to be answered when Freedom Leisure give their report.

Officer - 0:05:42

Thanks Gina. Yeah, I submitted my question in advance of the meeting, so I'm very pleased to be here to hear the response, and thank you for coming to answer our questions.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:05:49

And thank you when they cover your question you if you wanted to come up with a supplementary do just signal

And you can I will allow you a supplementary so, but thank you very much for coming along today

9 Report back on recommendations

Now

We've now got the report back on recommendations to cabinet

Councillor Jenkinson attended cabinet as vice chair to report back on earned s's recommendation

read the consultation on the local plan.

Do you have anything you wish to add to that?

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:06:25

Thank you.

We're whizzing along nicely.

We've got plenty to do later in the meeting,

10 Work Plan and Forward Plan

so I'm all for moving along at speed at this point.

Work plan and forward plan.

I hope that everybody has looked through these.

Do you have any comments to make on our work plan

or forward plan going forward.

No, that's wonderful.

So, now I'll welcome again to Freedom Leisure,

who managed all the leisure facilities in the Cotswold

11 Leisure Contract - Freedom Leisure

District Council area.

I'd like to welcome Nick Charlton and Lee Thomas.

Those are the two names I had given to me in advance.

So, although I apologise that I've given other names,

I haven't got them written down.

But please, if you could each introduce yourselves,

the roles that you do at Freedom Leisure.

And we look forward to hearing from your report.

Thank you.

Guest - 0:07:29

Yes, sorry.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:07:32

I should have leapt forward.

I've got this in the wrong order here.

And also present today is Paul Hodgsonson,

the cabinet member responsible for leisure facilities,

as well as parking.

He's got a second role this afternoon.

And I think he would like to first introduce the panel.

Thank you very much, and apologies, everybody, for that.

No problem at all.

Cabinet Member - 0:07:56

Yeah, nice to see everybody.

I just wanted to kind of preface the presentation

from Freedom Leisurely, because I took over

the cabinet role responsible for leisure services

in May 2023, so it's two and a half years ago.

And very soon after that, on the 1st of August, 2023,

Freedom Leisure took over responsibility for our three

leisure centres, Sorenstor Borton and Chipping Camden,

and also the Carinium Museum.

So almost you could say that we were twins insofar as they took

over pretty much the same time as I took over.

I just want to put on record my thanks to them for everything

they've done.

It's not been an easy job, and it wasn't that easy taking over

from the previous provider, who I believe had run things down

to a degree to the end of their contract.

So therefore, you know, when freedom took over,

I've always seen from freedom loads and loads of enthusiasm

and commitment.

They've increased the membership in our centres.

They focused on cleanliness because that has been an issue,

and that still is an issue for some people,

but they've focused relentlessly on that.

They've focused on staffing, on advertising,

And I've seen far less complaints coming through than

I did, say, two years ago or even a year ago.

So I think that is really important.

I'd also like to kind of just emphasise that Sire and Cessna

is the jewel in the crown of those leisure centres.

It is the one where we have so many members and it makes so

much more money than the other two leisure centres.

So it actually keeps the others going effectively.

And as a member of that leisure centre, I've seen a change, a positive change there too.

So the guys, the three guys, Nick, Jeremy and Lee are going to do a presentation, ably and supported by Lisa and Joseph probably.

So I'm going to leave it to them and I'm sure they will be answering your questions too. Thank you.

Guest - 0:10:00

Good evening, all.

My name is Jeremy Rowe.

I'm operations director for Freedom Leisure, so I support all the partnerships right across

England and Wales and obviously support the team here in the Consuls District.

Guest - 0:10:16

Good evening, all.

I'm Lee Thomas.

I'm the regional manager for Freedom Leisure, and I cover the Wales and West region and

Nick supports into myself.

Public Speaker - 0:10:28

Hit the right button. And yeah, I'm Nick Charlton. I'm the area manager.

So I look after the Cotswolds and Gloucester partnerships that we hold locally.

Okay. We'll go through. So I'll get Lisa to click through as we go.

So first, next one. Yeah.

So this one is again, hopefully just a bit of a summary,

but as I say, it's got Jeremy Lee and myself here.

And obviously we commenced the contracts partnership on the 1st of August 2023

Obviously we're discussing bought and chipping Camden and the sour incest of those centres today

And so in terms of I guess freedom leisure, you know, we improving lives through leisure is our main objective

And you see there in terms of aiming to keep sort of service affordable and accessible

To improve the overall health and well -being of our local communities

So next next slide please Lisa

So, participation wise, so again, since we started, so the contract years are all

grassroots through to July, so we focused on that. You can see in terms of the

graph, we have seen some really good growth. So year one, we had three, just

over three hundred and ninety five thousand visits, and in year two we

increased that to five hundred and seventy thousand visits, which is an

increase of forty six percent, one hundred and eighty three thousand

additional visits year on year and we're on track to improve by 15 % for the first

quarter of this year as well. So in terms of how we've managed that, I mean as Paul

sort of mentioned we have increased membership quite significantly as well

as our Learn to Swim programme. A lot of it's been around programming and

actually reviewing what sessions need to be in at the right times. Some of that's

been a result of customer feedback as well. So early on we had requests for

certain group exercise classes to come back or come into play.

So we've listened to those and increased those.

Not as well as obviously getting out and about in the local communities to kind of,

for outreach events to understand what people want to see and

see an impact backing to the low centre footfall.

We've also seen increase on health referral and cardiac rehab as well within some of

those provisions which have contributed to those increased footfall.

From a membership point of view, so again, you sort of see a bit of a scale there over

a sort of 18 -month, near enough two -year period.

So we've actually grown memberships quite significantly.

So sort of the first start point there is October 23, 3 ,065 members.

And as of August this year, the end of year two, we're at 4 ,633 members.

So real increase in fitness and swim memberships

across all the sites.

And it does represent 51 % growth as well from the start point.

And again, what we've done there is obviously

we've had capital investment, which has supported that.

So Sire and Sess in particular had a new spin studio,

an Elevate Studio, which allowed us to enter new programmings

and create additional space for the programmes in the existing

spaces.

But also, again, programming has come down to that as well.

So for example, some days swims.

We used to be sort of a lot of lane swimming,

but actually it's a key time for families.

So what we did was put in more family swims at the weekend

and that obviously increased footfall accordingly

for all ages as well.

But we've also, again, new membership offerings

to junior members, health,

and sort of key wellbeing partners as well

from a corporate perspective has helped us

drive those numbers.

From a learn to swim, so swimming lessons point of view, so again we have seen growth there which

to put in perspective I guess after Covid there was quite large growth across kind of leisure and

that's kind of plateaued but we still have seen some growth in the last sort of two years with

a six percent growth on learn to swim and I guess with that again it's it has we have invested into

that in terms of our aquatic team so we have increased the number of coordinated hours. We

We also put in an aquatic manager who focuses solely on the pools and specifically learn to swim.

But we also sort of relaunched and reestablished crash courses and private lessons which had sort of ceased at handover as well for a couple of years.

So again, programme provision has been key to sort of the growth there.

One of the things I guess we have done which we're really sort of pleased and proud of is the customer approach.

So what we have done is every site has had meet the manager sessions and some have had more than others

but every single site has had the opportunity for customers to come and meet the team and feedback and for us to listen and

And kind of what we are seeing is year one. We had a lot of comments

726 comments with obviously I mean 46 % of those being complaints a lot of that is linked to sort of

Mobilisation and being a new provider and a change of process from from one to the other and sort of bedding in

But what you'll see is in year two, we did see a significant

reduction in comments, which is usually a positive.

But actually we've seen a good increase in the fact that the

complements have gone from 10 percent of the comments to 54,

which is really, really strong.

And probably something, again, across the group is probably a

strong point in terms of the Cotswolds in particular.

And a lot of that will relate to service provision,

but most notably group exercise and fitness.

But I think that's been a really, really key thing for us,

where we've, again, given customers the opportunity to

come and talk to us and help shape their provision as well.

In terms of customer, so I'll summarise this.

There's so many sort of case studies we have put together and

we're really proud of.

But in terms of, we've got David here, who actually joined us.

He was recommended to join from the NHS.

He had some sort of health issues which he needed to work on.

Most notably he was recommended low impact activities.

He considered himself active before but actually probably wasn't.

And he was also a widower as well so actually isolation and loneliness

was something that he sort of brought forward to us as well.

But he joined Sire and Sester and began by joining the Forever Fit classes

which were actually designed for sort of older adults.

They're low impact as well, which has supported his needs.

But then since then, he's started taking more classes,

most notably aqua and added swimming to his routine as well.

But he also noted not only, you know,

coming to these for a physical point of view,

but certainly with the likes of the aqua group,

he found a really good social connexion as well.

But again, his journey continued

and actually started doing Les Mills body combat,

which is more of a high impact class as well, but it just shows from that point of view that any age can participate in what would be deemed mainstream activity as well.

So he has inspired others along the way on his journey as well.

So really positive, really pleasing storeys to see.

From an outreach point of view, it's something we're quite passionate about and we do quite a lot of, but that's been key.

So this one relates more to our visit to the 29th Regiment.

and actually we were going to support from a health and wellbeing point of view.

We engaged with over 50 service men and women with some body stat testing which

probably opened eyes for a few people as well. It's actually led into more of an

ongoing working partnership where we're looking to deliver Learn to Swim, not

just for servicemen but actually for their families as well and that's been

interesting. They've taken out sort of a wellbeing partner membership as well and

we've got some future kind of it says FTP which is actually it's a cycle based

fitness test as well so they're actually engaging with us on an ongoing level to

actually build connexions within the community. And another one again

Soaring Cessna College has actually been a really good relationship so this sort

of started early on but actually what we've we've done here is multiple things

so college actually met with us to discuss how they could improve the

service they offer to their students, both from a workplace learning but

engaging and getting them all ready for employment. So we've done a number of

things with them. We did some, they were, they came in to do some fitness classes

so it's part of their exercise to music part of their course. So they engaged

with instructors, got to see how classes run, talk to them about career

opportunities. But they also came and we've taken many honest employees. So

So again, we've provided MPLQ courses, which is lifeguard qualification, to these individuals.

Some of them have taken on swim teaching qualifications as well, and they're actively working within

the leisure centre as well.

But that is a partnership that's certainly blossoming locally as well.

From a team point of view, I think what we've probably done differently is that we haven't

been quite linear with our training and development.

So we haven't said, you're a duty manager.

you must you have to do these training opportunities and therefore these

opportunities aren't open to you and likewise with across other roles is

we've we've we've done a lot of training particularly around yes when teachers

but we've given that to lifeguards we've given it to reception team we've given

that to cleaners that have expressed an interest so we have developed an

upscaled and cross -trained a lot of our team so that we can prove the service

provision but also things like carbon literacy has been key to what we're

in to make sure that we're more environmentally friendly, but also various CPDs for swimming

teachers as well. So we have invested quite significantly and you can see there a few of

the sort of team members with their certificates, but that's certainly helped us deliver a better

service to the community. Most notably from an internal freedom point of view, so we do offer,

But we do run sort of over 130 leisure facilities

in our portfolio.

But actually, the Freedom Leadership Event,

where we have our annual award ceremony,

Sire and SESTA, in particular,

the Cotswolds partnership were recognised

as the most improved site and partnerships

within the Freedom portfolio,

which was absolutely amazing news for us and the team.

And you can see the team there with some of the awards.

But most notably, Cotswolds is really strong partnership

within the Freedom portfolio.

From a financial point of view, you can sort of see a summary there, but you can see sort

of April 24 to March 25.

You will see income is certainly up on the bid figures we put together.

So is expenditure as well though.

So what we have done is we have invested as well.

So what we have done is mainly invest in the team and the resource available.

So at handover, we didn't have a membership team.

We now have three membership advisors in the team.

we had a part -time swim school coordinator,

we now have a full -time coordinator,

we also have an aquatics manager,

and most notably, I guess at Baughton and Chippin Camden,

we've increased the number of lifeguard hours as well.

So from that point of view,

it does deliver a better service to the customer coming in

because there's more staffing provision

which helps us deliver a better service.

And you can see from April 25 to September 25,

the first six months of this financial year,

So we're continuing that trend in terms of performance as well.

And I think the next one was a summary of questions that we did have.

So again, what facilities do Freedom Leisure operate?

Hopefully we've answered that so far in terms of the leisure facilities.

Key learnings and what we would do differently I think came from the same individual.

So I think in terms of what we would do differently, I think the, what we have learned, I guess,

from my side would probably be the meet the manager sessions, the kind of customer engagement

side I think we would do early on in the partnership. I think we did have some, as I said, some

mobilisation challenges and change of process for customers, which I think if we got in front

of customers early on, would have helped with some of that in terms of the complaints we got in that

first year so I think being accessible and open to customers from the off and

the same with the team not assuming that because they've worked at the site for

so long that they actually they do have all the knowledge and they have had all

the support to run the buildings as we would see so so I think that would

probably be the biggest learning outcome for me and certainly the thing if we

were doing it again is what would be on top of my agenda. Information from the

week added from residents I think this is this is key to in terms of the

outreach we do. I mean the 29th Regiment is probably a good example there of when we've

actually been outside of the four walls of the Ledger Centre. We've gone to community

settings, we've engaged with people, heard what they would like to see within the provision,

within the sites. We did the Wellbeing Tour last year as well and we have further outreach

events planned in. Phoenix Festival was something we've done the last two years as well. So

from that side we actively do go out we engage we hear what people want to see

and that has helped certainly develop some of the provision that we have put

into place across the leisure centres. In terms of parking at the leisure centre I

think this referred to parking being challenging at times I probably agree it

can be challenging at times equally it's not our car park to govern I guess so we

do our best to obviously work with the customers that coming in but that is

obviously a CDC car park so any resolution there will be worked on

through our ops meetings and quarterly meetings I guess. I think managerial

support for younger team members and I think this was part, Laura I think

was part of your question wasn't it Sue, there's a few points to yours which I

think one was to do with support of the younger team members based on experience

you had recently. So from that size yes that's a freedom issue I guess from

from that event that you witnessed so we wouldn't comment on that I guess but

what I would say is we have internal procedures which we would absolutely

follow and have done to kind of to manage that one but equally there is

always a duty manager on site they're supported obviously by the general

managers as well and have one -to -ones as well as appraisals on a regular basis

so from a development and support point of view they are getting that and that

flows through into the to the younger team members as well. Pull temperatures I

something on there as well. So yeah, in terms of our pool temperatures, we are, we are contractually

governed as well. So within the contract we hold with CDC, there are set points, uh, which

we have to, I guess, operate to, which we do. So I would say the teaching pool is warmer

than the main pool. We do operate that higher because it's obviously younger children and

babies that go into that, that area. Um, but 29 degrees I think is for the main pool is

the contractual obligation we have, um, with, with CDC to maintain that cleanliness at big

times I think was yeah so I think what what we have done is we do we do employ

cleaners the freedom employees and we have increased the number of cleaners

since we've been in operation as well so I think from from one side obviously we

do work with the customers so any feedback that comes forward we do listen

we do review both internally our quarterly meetings with CDC as well but

again it's a case of where we see trends we would look to review rotors

accordingly if that's just changing or if that's putting in additional hours as

we have done over the last few sort of months and certainly this year then then

that is how we would we review that as well. Was sorry was there anything else

in your comment in particular that I've missed you might have to remind me?

Yeah

Officer - 0:26:31

Thank you. I think you've pretty much covered it all. I think you've partly answered my

question about numbers on a Sunday. You've clearly increased the numbers of people that

are using the site, which is really good. Sometimes it just feels like it's the flow

of people through the centre is not being managed very well. Specifically for me and

my peers, it's difficult when you expect to go into the learning pool, which is the right

temperature for babies to be held because there are too many people in

there but you've already paid you've been through the changing room so

you're standing at the side of the pool so that could perhaps be managed a

little better from the front end from reception and perhaps different timing

Public Speaker - 0:27:15

slots that sort of thing. Yeah thanks that yeah that that makes sense I mean

in terms of ratios yes we are we do obviously follow our LSS guidance in

terms of session so obviously lifeguard ratios to be the loads is very much you

know, that's crystal clear. We operate to that. I take your point.

I guess the challenge is,

is more where we've got people coming in for a session and more people might

want to be in the learner pool as opposed to being the main pool because of the

temperatures. Yeah. So we, we are, I mean,

we are trying to or we're working with our sort of LMS champion at the moment to

look how we can improve the booking system to therefore better manage how the

footfall flows as well, if that makes sense.

So that is kind of an open piece at the moment.

So that is something we are trying to do to combat that one as well.

Okay and I think that the next point was around expansion of service delivery

delivery in the community so notably elderly residents so we do we do

deliver outreach classes within the community I think one of one outside of

the the four walls and so again we North Leach and I think it's Western Suburge

we do go out into community halls and deliver a service to residents who maybe

could not or maybe don't feel comfortable going into leisure centres

But again, we have been actively engaging with the community.

So we are a member of various kind of health and well -being boards as well.

We do work with NHS as well in terms of the health referral as well to try and help shape

those services.

We are launching actually in January a movement at the museum, which while the Corinium isn't

part of the leisure contract if you like, we're actually looking at how we can engage

with people that maybe don't feel comfortable coming into leisure centres

and they're using a different setting to kind of break down barriers of kind of

getting involved with activity with a view then hopefully that becomes

sustainable and or then can encourage people to come into the leisure centre

as well. But a lot of what we have done within the leisure centre is change the

provision as well so for example active enable classes is something we've put on

for older customers and we've also looked at changing our provision so

So when I've talked about programming, sometimes it's as simple as changing the name of something,

which actually encourages more people to come.

So where we've had more mainstream classes, we've actually rejigged that and called maybe

an entry level or an introduction to.

And that's actually led to more people coming in that maybe didn't feel comfortable going

into those classes because they don't feel as it's the sort of more regular, more confident

users.

So that's certainly helped break down some barriers as well.

And then the final question I think we had submitted in advance was to do with Chip and

Camden and how that kind of is different with the dual use agreement.

Yeah it is different, it certainly is different.

Obviously I think the biggest challenge for us is where certainly Chip and Camden is around

maintenance I guess.

We do what we can but maintenance is the school's, part of the school's kind of responsibility

and actually we know it's an older building as well.

but if we do get complaints come to us and then we're not in charge of rectifying that and it doesn't get done

that's that's probably where we get the

We get some negatives, but equally we regularly meet with the school. We have a monthly meeting

To discuss these review feedback talk about maintenance

And I also gets reported back through to the quarterly visit quarterly meetings we have as well

So it certainly is a bit more challenging because we're not in charge and responsible for everything

But equally, we have seen, you know, some increased

issues at Chipping Camden as well.

And the facilities we've got there for that community

are, you know, while they might be slightly older,

they are fantastic facilities for that community to have.

I think that was all the questions I've had in advance.

So, I guess that opens it up.

Yes.

Well, thank you.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:31:07

Thank you for that.

And it was very helpful for those people who did give

their questions in advance because Freedom Measure

to look at them and come back with those. But I now open up to the meeting any

questions who would like to have a question first? Councillor Turner.

Councillor Clare Turner - 0:31:30

Thank you. I just wanted to sort of pick up on the Chipping Camden issue

specifically because that's the kind of I don't get any of the positives from

residents only some of those negatives which are generally, well there's two

things I think, one is the maintenance issues so I just want wondering if

you can elaborate a little on what are the barriers to the school taking

action if you're having monthly meetings what's stopping the progress there are

there creative routes to have support in the school to deliver so that the users

are happier and the other issue that's cropped up quite regularly is staffing

and there's been some issues recently with teachers of sick and so lessons

getting cancelled but also I have a group of ladies who use the Sunday

morning and I don't know what you call it sort of a quieter swim and on a

number of occasions there haven't been the staff to open the pool but they

don't know until they get there even though some of them have acquired their

cards and so on in the hope that they would get communication ahead of you

know as soon as it's known that it's cancelled so I just wondered if you

could and talk about the staffing issues and how they're addressed specifically at Camden.

Public Speaker - 0:32:41

Yeah okay thanks for those. So from a maintenance point of view I mean I think

there's lots of challenges at the school. I think we like I said we raise them at

the meetings I think probably in terms of those things not getting rectified.

I think that's whether that's school financial challenges to be honest. I mean the

the roof is something that leaks.

And that happened the other week.

And that is a challenge.

So I think, like I said, we constantly report

into the issues we do get.

But again, if we're not responsible

and it is not a cost for us,

and something like a roof is obviously quite expensive,

I would imagine, and not something you can fix overnight.

So I think there is some longer standing issues

with how things have been maintained.

And I guess it is having a list of everything

he's doing and prioritising for the school. But yes, you know, that does impact us if, you know,

if the dosing unit on the pool goes down during the day and we don't get until three o 'clock,

we have to react to that at that point from our side. But equally, the school needs to kind of

work with us and make sure we know that coming in and they're sort of managing that to get that

right. Because again, it wouldn't be our contractors that we're calling out. So I think,

yes it's an older building and and and that's probably some of the challenges I

guess the school have got but I think it probably more of a question for them in

terms of directly to them you know the maintenance issues. From a staffing point

of view yeah I think what we what we do have challenges I guess from one side in

terms of yes if a swim if a teacher calls in sick we can't just get anybody

to teach that they have to have a certain qualification so we do our best

to react to that and actually what we have done over the last 12 to 18 months

is probably more a lot of the shared working at Chippenhampton and Borton

which obviously located a bit closer together. I think yes the Sunday morning

will always be a challenge if you have a lifeguard call in sick last minute. There

has to be two qualified lifeguards in the building to open the pool so if the

duty manager is there and opened up and a lifeguard calls in sick and the next

one isn't in for a next hour or so then we'd always try and bring one in earlier

but if the one has called in sick they cannot open the pool without a second

person there. So that is that has been a challenge. I think to my knowledge recent

weeks that that has improved. We've done a lot more around contracting staff there

as well. So previously I think a lot of it was casual and actually now mass

majority is contracted but yes it will always be a challenge to react to any

last -minute sickness or absence for sure.

Is that reported on the app?

Sorry.

The app.

Yeah.

It will do if we're there to react, obviously, but I guess if the duty manager comes in at

sort of nine o 'clock to open up, for example, and the lifeguard doesn't turn up at that

point, they're probably talking to customers directly at that moment in time.

But yes, where we can react as quickly as possible, the app, and I think I noted the

app on the presentation, the app is always our preferred method of communication because

it's quick and easy.

And as you see, there's about 12 ,000 people on the app.

So it goes to more than just our membership base.

It goes to all the casual or pay -as -you -go members that have registered.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:35:55

Thank you for that.

Now we have Councillor Bridges, please.

Are you Lizzie and David?

Oh, sorry.

Councillor Nick Bridges - 0:36:02

I thought I was David.

Maybe it was Chris.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:36:08

Absolutely, and actually, well, it was finance, and I haven't quite got it, but absolutely,

our CFO, David Stanley, please.

Thank you, Chair.

David Stanley, Deputy CEO - 0:36:19

It helps reassure members on the Chipping Camden position, certainly.

Myself, Joseph and Lisa meet regularly with the school to address some of the school's

concerns around the facility and to liaise carefully and closely with Freedom to make

all those issues being resolved, but as has been set out, there is a very different arrangement

with the dual use agreement with the school. The school own the buildings and to an extent

control access to the leisure centre during the school hours. But we do meet with and

met with the school's commercial director and business manager in September. We do a

follow -up meeting with him and I know members that serve the residents of Chipping Camden

have been ensuring that those issues have brought our attention as officers.

So we are working through what is a sort of in effect a three -way relationship

between the school, Freedom Leisure and the council but just to reassure members

that's an active ongoing discussion.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:37:24

Yeah well thank you and appreciate and apologies for not not spotting you

indicating you wanted to talk. So Councillor Bridges.

Councillor Nick Bridges - 0:37:33

Two questions really. Here in Syrins, I've noticed that at the weekends the car park is full, but next door St. James are offering free parking.

Have you explored the opportunity with them of publicising the fact it's free and perhaps getting more people in?

And question two, totally unrelated. GPs often like to prescribe exercise.

I've always thought that's a really good idea and far better than prescribing medication.

Are there opportunities for you to expand that?

You're doing it already.

Yeah, thanks.

Thanks, though.

Public Speaker - 0:38:12

So St. James is free parking.

I was completely unaware.

So thanks for that.

That's something, yeah, potentially we could look to work with them.

And they actually have a corporate offer with us as well.

So there might be a relationship there that we can work on.

So we'll take that one away.

Thanks for that. Health referral? Yeah, so I mean we obviously do deliver that at

Syrinsester and Borton as well. So I mean in the last year, well year one, we

actually saw I think 38 % growth and last year 46 % growth on the health

referral programme. So we do work with NHS, our Health and Communities Manager

Paula has been fantastic at opening those relationships. We are at a point

where we probably do need to grow that provision.

We've recently just taken on a new lead

for that health referral scheme,

and that's gone down well.

But yes, we are seeing more and more,

which from that side is a real positive.

But actually, yes, we have increased it a lot

in the last sort of 12 or two years anyway.

So it's something we'll continue to look to grow.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:39:19

Thank you.

Councillor Harris.

Thank you very much.

Councillor Joe Harris - 0:39:24

and thank you for joining us this evening.

Yeah, I mean, I was quite excited

when Freedom Leisure were coming in.

A lot of work was done as part of the procurement process,

and a lot of work went into that from officers here,

and of course former Councillor Ford.

They ran up to that, so I was really pleased when it went over.

Unfortunately, though, I think my experience today

and the anecdotal evidence I've got from residents

who raise issues with me is a big disappointment actually and I break this

down into three key areas. Cleanliness being number one which we've touched upon

a bit today, staffing and of course the building. So if we start on cleanliness

first of all you know I get a constant stream of messages from members of the

public, friends of mine that use it, family about the cleanliness, the site in

siren system in particular, the site I'm speaking about this evening. Everything from just dust and

what I'm guessing pubic hair lying around the gym, around water fountains, water marks on the water

fountain, looking at it hasn't been cleaned for a long time, just looking down the backs of things,

seeing thick dust. So that's been raised and I think you know there has been a bit of a step up

in terms of cleanliness but again the anecdotal evidence I'm hearing is that that is still

persisting as an issue that whole thing around cleanliness and you know for what

is a great facility I would expect the highest level of cleanliness because

we're talking about health and fitness here so you know I think at the very

least we can at the very least we should expect high levels of cleanliness which

I don't think we have yet so you know it's great to hear that investment into

into cleanliness but you know my question would be how often are they

working because I think it seems at the minute quite hit and miss as to how

clean the site is. Yeah I go to gyms elsewhere and they were spotless and

there's always a cleaner in there, either dusting, going around doing something. So

I'd say do we always have somebody cleaning the site because I'd suggest

probably what we want to try and get to. I think on staffing, again the comments

that I've got are inexperienced staff, little training, poor customer service,

I'll give you an example.

My mother's a member advancing in years, not always the most

confident in the gym and some of the staff in the gym couldn't

have been, you know, less interested in trying to help her.

Clearly struggling or a bit confused.

There was just a lack of attentiveness and really when

she did ask for help it was seen as a bit more of an annoyance

and why are you bothering me rather than that high level of

customer service that we think.

So, you know, I think from my point of view it's a case of

what training are our staff or the staff at the site getting and how are we

ensuring that again a high level of customer service because people pay a

lot for a gym membership is received I think that's absolutely that's

absolutely critical and then I think the third one probably more a Cotswold issue

but this whole thing around the building and the fabric of the building we know

that it is an ageing building I think what I'd like to understand is those

conversations between Freedom Leisure and council officers in the first

instance around the fabric of the building. You know I've got comments

around changing rooms just being a bit smelly that might be a cleanliness issue

that might be a building issue, a water fountain near the sauna which hasn't

worked for a very long time. I don't know if that's fixed now but you'd expect next

to a sauna you kind of want access to you kind of want access to a water. A

message I got a couple of months ago now but this is a photo of a towel dispenser

that is just absolutely knackered. This kind of sums everything up. Since I

started, these tower dispensers have been broken and just filled with crap. It's all

of them. So, you know, again, it's just not a great advert, is it, when we're asking

people to pay lots of money to come and work at our site. So, listen, I don't want

to, I know that's come across as quite negative, but those are the

anecdotes and the issues that I get raised with residents, by residents, by

people that I know, and by my own family. So that is my experience of the Cotswold

Leisure Centre, and that's the one reason I didn't take out a membership myself,

because I'd heard all of these horror storeys, to be honest.

So, you know, a few questions in there, but I just, you know,

give you the right to respond and put it from your point of view.

That's not to say there's some good stuff going on.

Clearly, there's some good community engagement.

I think there are some positives, but I think, again,

if you're paying money, we expect a high service

for a membership that you're getting.

You expect cleanliness and you expect staff

to display a high level of professionalism.

Public Speaker - 0:44:04

Okay, I'll try and answer the questions in there.

So I guess from a cleanliness point of view, I can't remember the exact number of hours,

but we do employ sole cleaners, but we also expect that obviously, for example, lifeguards

when they're off board would be clean as well.

So I think we're around 60 to 70 hours of contracted cleaning hours, plus the additional

team members that would clean.

I mean from a from a cleanliness point of view I think we had an issue earlier

in the year that was reported to us around the gym. Since then we reacted by

putting in a sole cleaner into the gym and the feedback could kind of

contradictory to what you're saying in terms of everything we've seen and heard

from customers that are currently using the facilities is that that individual

is not just a great cleaner she's a really positive person she's engaging

and actually that's not the feedback trend we've seen coming into us so I

I think I highlighted on the slides from the start that yes, the first year we might have seen a lot more

comments and those being negative comments, but that has flipped around entirely.

So yes, well, you know, there'll be some days that might be more challenging.

You might have an individual calling sick and that puts strain on the rest of the team,

but we would always do our best to react to that and actually again from the customers that are using those facilities on a day -to -day,

it's not the trends that we've seen.

But as I said, we're always reviewing. You mentioned staffing.

Again, actually in terms of all the feedback we get,

which again is a constant theme

for the last sort of 18 months or so,

is that the best thing about the building

is the people that work there.

So staffing and colleagues, whether that's group exercise,

some of the reception team, some of the duty managers,

has actually been one of the positive trends

over the last sort of two years or so we've been reporting,

certainly the last 18 months.

So, you know, I'm not saying everybody's perfect

and somebody can have a bad day,

but actually from everything we've seen, you know,

and I think I've sort of suggested on the slide in terms of the team

development, we don't just train receptionists to be a receptionist. If, you know,

we can react and train them and they can be a swim teacher so you can ensure

that service continues or they can support. We've done that.

So actually we've invested quite a lot in staff training over the last two years

for sure. And in terms of,

So building, yes, I mean in terms of we obviously meet quarterly, monthly and quarterly with CDC and actually we do report on PPM, so plan preventative maintenance.

That goes into the quarterly report and that's shared. But equally at ops any maintenance issues are shared. We discuss those, we agree on outcomes as well.

So from that side actually I think the working together has been quite strong over the last sort of 18 months.

certainly probably stronger than it had been before,

from my knowledge as well.

So those are always open.

But yeah, I mean, interesting to hear,

and like I said, I'm certainly not saying

that we don't have bad days,

but the overarching comments we're getting from customers,

and I'm a big believer that both with your team

and your customers,

they're the best marketing tool you've got.

And if they're going away and saying good things,

you don't need to spend all that money on leaflets

and social media.

And actually, as we've seen,

learn to swims increase, memberships increase,

and participation has increased and you don't do that if you're not delivering a good service.

On that, maybe one for the Cotswolds side.

Councillor Joe Harris - 0:47:24

So on that thing about the fabric of the building, because I think, again, we know that the building's 20, 25 years old now, however long it is.

And what is the, recognising that money is tight, looking around at my colleague David,

so what is the sort of plan for investment in the site so we can get some of these small things,

whether it's water fighting to stop working or a towel dispenser fix as

quickly as possible rather than just letting it fester it's not a great

Officer - 0:47:53

advert. Hi Lucy Catton, Leisure and Culture Manager. So some of the items we talk

about on our monthly ops calls some of the larger items remain for our repairs

and maintenance calls and the smaller items such as the water fountain and the

towel dispensers they are the responsibility of Freedom Leisure so

So that type of thing doesn't really come to us.

The larger scale items are what crosses our desks

and we then usually spend time to decide

what direction we're gonna go with that.

I will liaise with the estates team,

David in particular, for the more costly items.

But we are working through them

as and when they come in front of us.

Sometimes we are at the mercy of contractors,

which means that we can't move as quickly as we'd like to and we can't get

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:48:47

things in motion as fast as we might like to. Thank you actually David

Stanley would like to come in too and then you can have the final question. Thank you chair I

David Stanley, Deputy CEO - 0:48:54

think it's worth remembering a couple of points so when Freedom Leisure took over

the contract as with all bidders for that contract the council put 1 .2

million pounds into investment in those leisure centres and they brought those

plans in front of the portfolio holder of the time and cabinet to endorse in terms of

where that money was spent.

I've got one eye on where we might be in 2033 -34 and what the council does with those

leisure centres.

In terms of other investment, £360 ,000 was put into new equipment about three, four years

ago.

We're planning £500 ,000 with the capital programme of 26, 27 and £550 ,000 in 29, 30

to recognise that part of the investment in the facility is also in the equipment.

There is, through the asset management programme within the capital programme, provision for

some reactive repairs and maintenance.

But as Lisa has set out, there is a difference between what is the fabric of the building

and what is the service responsibility and making sure we've got that right.

I am hearing from Councillor Harris that that is a concern, so we need to understand what

is the issue.

I mean, I'm aware of the fact that the lift hasn't worked for a significant period of

time.

Both SLM and Freedom have spent money on trying to get the lift to work.

That clearly hasn't worked, and we are looking at a full replacement of that lift because

we're not DDA compliant in that respect.

So some of those items do get picked up.

appreciate Councillor Harris that might not be at the pace that it probably

needs to be but it would be useful for us as officers and freedom to reflect on

that and speed up some of that so that there is a visible change that you can

see and other users can see to the fabric of the building. David I really

Councillor Joe Harris - 0:50:45

appreciate that and the final thing I would put is have we considered setting

up a stakeholder board so I did a corporate peer challenge at another

Council recently and they've got a really good stakeholder board which

meets I think once every couple of months it's made up of the contract the

council officers the cabinet member and users of the service who ultimately are

the most important people in this as the people that are paying for it so has

any thought been given to setting something similar up or looking at other

models and do we look at a question for freedom do we look at customer feedback

and is there any, do we take customer feedback, you know, based on their

experiences today? Is there any mechanisms for doing that? So I guess

maybe one question for our CDC officers and then another for Freedom, if I may.

Thank you. Then I'm done, Gina, I promise.

Public Speaker - 0:51:36

I'll jump in on the Freedom ones first then.

So yeah, I think, yeah, hopefully picked up in one of the slides, but yes, from a

customer point of view, I mean something again we've done which hadn't happened

before was meet the manager sessions. So I think we've delivered about four of

those at Syrinsestor, three at Borton,

and I think one or two at Camden as well,

most more recently with Camden.

So that's customers opportunity to come and tell us

what is either wrong, what could be better,

what they'd like to see,

and that has shaped programming as well.

So again, might not be a maintenance thing or cleanliness,

but Les Mills body combat was absolutely something

that customers wanted to see when we first take over.

We've put that in and that's sort of grown from there.

So yes, and again, those kind of 900 plus comments

we recorded over the first two years that all comes from our online platform

system eFocus so people can put a comment form at reception if they feel

more comfortable pen and paper that would then go into that system and

that's all that can go directly onto the website leave the feedback that gets

reviewed not just at site but is available on a corporate level as well

and we also do NPS so we do a net promoter score which a customer survey

and actually again what we saw year -on -year was improvement across all

three of the leisure centres from year one to year two.

Thank you.

I've got...

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:52:54

Officer - 0:52:58

Yes, I'm stuck behind the chair, which makes it quite difficult.

Joseph Walker, so I'm head of economic development and communities.

So just to pick up that point, more than happy to explore that with the cabinet member and

with freedom, leisure.

Certainly we're keen to make sure we capture the sort of user view in terms of how the

service is taken forward.

I just wanted to note that in terms of the capacity to monitor the site, to cheque on

cleanliness, to work with Freedom Leisure, to do that spot checking, and to get that

real in -depth sort of fresh set of eyes on what's going on within the leisure centres,

we are in the process of recruiting a leisure and culture support officer to assist Lisa

in managing the contract from our site.

So we will be massively increasing the capacity we've got

to do that site review on a regular basis.

Well, thank you for that.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:53:52

And I'm sorry that I haven't got eyes on the back of my head yet.

Councillor Jenkinson.

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 0:54:00

Thank you, Chair.

And thank you very much for coming along

and giving us this presentation

and for indeed running the services.

My impression from this conversation and from the

reports in the past is that you came into somewhat

challenging circumstances.

There are still some challenging circumstances

around buildings and so forth that you're dealing with,

but the progress has been in the right direction,

and I want to thank you and express appreciation for that

and ask you to ensure that all the following wins that exist

you take advantage of, and where they're not there,

create your own.

So please carry on.

I have a question, though, and I'm not sure whether it's really

related to yourselves, Freedom Leisure, or whether it's more

for the Cabinet member or Joseph, or just not appropriate

to this meeting, but I'm interested in what's the scope

for CDC to expand its portfolio of services in this area.

Are we thinking strategically ahead?

And I'm particularly thinking, of course, of the town that has

been described as the largest centre in the North Cotswolds,

which is also scheduled to have a very large substantial growth

scheduled in years ahead, which where we are not present at the

moment and where it's thought that there is a gap of need and

and it will only grow larger.

Could we imagine further development in, for example,

Moreton in Marsh?

There may be somewhere else deep south or somewhere

that I do not know that also might benefit.

Cabinet Member - 0:55:52

I think, I mean, you're absolutely right to identify.

Obviously, given the sheer thousands of extra houses

that the Labour government wants us to build,

then there has to be infrastructure accompanying

that doesn't it? The issue we've got is local government reorganisation. So

whatever I said today we're not going to be here in two and a half years time

most likely and there'll be another council and another set of councillors

elected to deal with these things. So as much as I might like to say yeah wouldn't

it be great to expand it actually I'd be lying if I said that because I won't

have that opportunity to to implement any of that because we'll be gone and so

I think that's the honest answer.

What I would also say is,

it is actually very challenging

having trying to run three leisure centres.

And I think we've done phenomenally well

compared to so many other councils in keeping them going.

I mean, I think it was something like 30 %

of leisure centres shut in the country

around the time after COVID,

because that had such a huge impact on budgets and et cetera.

So we've done, I think we've done incredibly well

to keep them going. But it is challenging as you see from the numbers.

Sire ancestor effectively has got so many you know members that keeps the other two

centres afloat, excuse the pun. So I guess to expand it at this moment in

time in this council would be incredibly challenging. We need to get loads of

extra money in from somewhere. Maybe from soil money, maybe from housing. But I

think that's going to have to be a decision for the next unitary council.

whatever that looks like.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:57:33

Thank you. Does anybody else? I have a question but

Councillor Turner if you want to go ahead now and then I've got some questions and then that hopefully we'll be wrapping it up. Thank you.

Councillor Clare Turner - 0:57:46

Thank you. You touched very briefly on carbon literacy training for staff, and I just wondered if you could

tell us any more about

any other plans, I'm thinking again,

particularly Chipping Camden,

and I fully appreciate the challenges

that it's the school's facilities,

they own the buildings,

but are there any plans or discussions

around trying to improve the energy efficiency

of the site at Chipping Camden in particular?

Public Speaker - 0:58:16

Yeah, from a Chipping Camden point of view,

I mean, every site we run,

we have an active energy management plan. We also have reactive plans as well so

if something changes how we would basically react to that. So that involves

either investment, training, just daily procedures as well. I think from a

Chip and Camden point of view yeah it probably it doesn't sit with us in terms

of I think that would that would need to be something that the school would

would want to invest in but we have worked with them. We put together a

business proposal for them for a pool cover for example for Chip and Camden

which they they currently don't have an operational one. I think we supplied that

quite early on in the partnership and we supplied it I think last year as well

again because their school were looking to revisit. So we have supported them on

the business case, we've supported them on the return on investment to them

which I think is actually within a year to be honest you would see that the

savings back. So from that side we're supporting and doing what we can but

ultimately I think in terms of the purchase for those items it would have

to sit with the school but yes we supply knowledge and expertise I guess.

Councillor Clare Turner - 0:59:29

Can I just come back on that? I'm confident that there's a local community including the PTA that will be delighted to support

fundraising for that so if that could be entered into the conversations I would be

happy to to discuss that further as a parent at the school as well.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:59:44

I have a little advance from this and I think David Stanley has rather more so

David Stanley, Deputy CEO - 0:59:53

it has been a he will fill you in. Thank you chair. I was gonna get let Lisa come in

but I'll as I've got the microphone. So we are in discussions with the school as

we've said in terms of that three -way relationship to explore ways in which

the council and the school could work collaboratively if the council

facilitate some of this work around a pool cover and other

energy efficiency measures because both in the school's

interest to keep that cost down, it's also in our interest

because we get that cost gets passed through the

dual use agreement.

So we have had initial discussions around a pool cover.

There is an investment that would be needed and I'm looking

at creative ways that could be funded that you'll see from the

slides that were put up earlier that the position on the

is ahead of the bid so there might be some option that the council's got of

utilising some of that surplus that might come through earlier than we expected and

redirecting that to Chippenhamden, but that's subject to those conversations.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:00:56

Well, thank you for that.

First of all I just want to make a comment that, thank you Councillor British, you asked my question.

I think GP referrals are a very important part of the services provided by

Freedom Leisure or any leisure company.

My question is really well that you also touched on the fact

that you are working with students in Sarensestah,

but not at Boughton on the Water and Chipping Camp,

both of which the leisure facilities are on school sites.

Have you got any plans of doing anything

with the students in that way?

The other comment though,

there's no Boughton on the Water member here today.

He wasn't able to attend the meeting.

I understand that jacuzzi is a jacuzzi problem, a jacuzzi which isn't being used or hasn't been fitted at Boughton on the water.

I don't know an awful lot more than that.

And my final question was hoping that the slides were going to be shared, which we saw earlier.

Were they going to be shared following the meeting?

Thank you.

Okay.

Public Speaker - 1:01:59

Yes, so sorry, school support.

So yes, I guess the Syrinsester College is very much a partnership we have, but equally a lot of

those students don't just come from Syrinsester, some of them do actually come from Borton and some

I think from Chippen Camden. But what we have done, we've offered the same things at Borton

and at Chippen Camden. So actually a number of our live guides from Chippen Camden have actually

come from the school. So we did offer free MPLQ, so live guide qualifications to students from them.

we have done on an annual basis in terms of inviting them to come and have those

qualifications and we've done that at Borton as well. So again we have actually

taken students from those schools, given them some qualifications, swim teachers

as well, up -skilled them and they have come to work. So it has spread that

way as well and we continue to do that because we recognise it's a good

opportunity to work with the schools to engage students as well.

The Jacuzzi at Borton, yeah, so that was,

that has been a sort of a longer project,

but again, one we worked with CDC on.

So yes, that was down to be replaced.

We have that replacement Jacuzzi on site,

but in store, we found some challenges

with some pipe work, balanced tanks,

which forgive me if I don't go

into all the mechanical behind that,

but that's identified some problems there

in terms of a leak that has since been rectified and then a leak further down

the line has been has been identified so we're currently working on that one and

contracts are back on site this week but again that is part of our monthly R &M

and obstacles with CDC very much on top of that and regularly communicating with

customers where we've got an update to offer but once we can resolve the

technical issues and the maintenance issues underground then we can we can

get that in place and I think Lisa has the slides so Lisa can share those

happily after the presentation.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:03:57

Well thank you very much.

Councillor Bridges has another burning question.

Are we talking about the museum today at all?

Councillor Nick Bridges - 1:04:06

No? Can we?

Just to say that obviously it's nice to have some Roman artefacts in town,

but it doesn't seem to be much apart from the Romans.

A little bit, but not much.

I thought I'd just set you up for that one.

But it would be nice to have a broader range of stuff in the museum.

I'm thinking, I really enjoyed the recent exhibition about World War I.

That was really good. It's a shame that isn't more permanent.

Princess Diana, I think she was at the time, brought her kids to the nursery here.

That's quite modern stuff.

David Niven, the film star, he has connexions with Sire and Cestor.

There's nothing about that in the museum, it's just Roman stuff, which doesn't really interest me.

You're doing your best to make it interesting.

Or can we have something else?

Public Speaker - 1:05:07

I'll take that one back to Emma at the museum.

Yeah, I guess it probably is Roman heavy for a reason though, being Corinium.

But yeah, I was going to say obviously, I think Sam did the World War II piece as well,

which she put together and I think went down well as well.

But yeah, I guess it will be focused on certain things.

But equally, I mean, the museum and Emma in particular were key to getting the History Festival launched in Cirencester as well.

So obviously that takes into account kind of wider things than just the Romans.

But they were crucial to that being set up as well.

So yes, they do look at other things, but yeah, I guess it will always be focused a bit more on the residents.

Well, there will be this, I'm sure there's more lecturer talks and stuff to happen when that goes ahead as well.

But yeah.

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 1:05:59

What I would say seriously is that you do have some content in the museum

related to the really important mediaeval development

around sheep farming and the sheep industry.

There is already some content,

and that's absolutely vital in European development,

European history.

I happen to have studied this particular field,

and I won't go into any detail,

but it's a really major thing,

and it was the bedrock and the wool sack

and all of those things.

So that would be something to think about

strategic development in.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:06:34

Thank you all. It has been really useful, really appreciate freedom of measure. Thank you all for coming and for our officers for coming to support.

It is very, very helpful. We haven't had a meeting on this for a long time and I think it is hugely appreciated. So thank you very much indeed.

And before we sort of, as we go on to the next issue, I just wanted to say that both

our CEO Jane Portman and also Helen Martin are attending this meeting, but they're doing

it virtually. You will see them later on. At the moment the screen isn't showing them,

but they are present even if we can't see them.

They weren't able to attend the meeting in person today.

But just to let you know that they are here.

12 Car Parking Strategy

And now, moving on to the next item,

yes, is the car parking strategy.

And I would like to ask the cabinet member,

Paul Hodgkinson, to introduce this.

And he's supported by Susan Hughes,

the lead officer on parking.

So yes, if you're ready, please start.

Cabinet Member - 1:07:54

Thank you. Thank you very much. Yeah. I didn't realise I was referred to as Mr.

Carpark but thank you very much Michael for my new title. Wonderful. Right. So I'm really delighted

to be able to present this to you today. So what we're looking at is the car parking strategy for

the district for the net effectively for the next two and a half years. I'll explain that in a

second but 2025 to 2028. And it's really about how we're managing our off street parking estate

over that time and I think it's really important to emphasise that we in this

council are responsible for off -street parking because I'll come on to

on -street parking in a minute. So what's the purpose of this strategy?

Effectively it's to deliver a positive parking experience for residents

primarily but obviously we know that there are many many thousands of

visitors as well and also to ensure that businesses are supported through the

local economy, contributing to sustainability,

which I'll explain in a second, and preparing for what's coming

in terms of local government reorganisation.

So we currently manage 20 off -street car parks with a

total of 2 ,279 spaces, as at yesterday,

and 24 EV charging points in that.

Because we recognise that as much as we want to encourage

active travel in this incredibly rural area many people still have to rely on

cars. So the strategy we came up with the strategies being worked on for 18 months

so I've been working on it for almost that time but my predecessor Tony Dale

was previously working on this too and you know Tony was absent for a while

due to his accident so I took over at that that point. We looked at loads of

and Susan will tell you more about this, but the data was fascinating, well I thought it was,

because we looked at the usage and the stay times for all of our, every single one of our car parks.

There were observations, there were modelling done from the money taken and it was fascinating to see

when the car parks were rammed, if I can use that technical term, when they weren't, which ones were and which one weren't

and it wasn't necessarily correlating

with what you might think all the time.

We also obviously did community consultation

and a survey last year,

plus the officers who I'll name in a second,

and I and Tony previously went out on site

to talk to Town and Parish Councils,

community groups and businesses,

Tethbury twice for me, Borton, Fairford, North Leech

and others as well.

So we really did talk to a lot of people.

You know what we were doing there is understanding parking needs, understanding customer needs,

looking at future demand and then thinking about what those options were.

It's fair to say that there was a lot of feedback on the street parking, lots of it, in many

ways often more than off street parking.

And so what we've done as you've seen in the report is we've listed those two so that when

that gets passed to GCC it's obvious where their responsibility lies.

But I thought I would just say that because I think when we went out many people gave us everything to do with parking and

Obviously we are only responsible for one part of that. So I kind of that was key

So in terms of priorities and again, this is mapped out in the report

What we've done is looked at stay times and the turnover to make sure short stay spaces are available in the right places

And we've also looked at long stay provision to make sure worker and tourists needs are

are accommodated.

There's a very specific proposal for the Borton on the water

Rizzington Road car park.

And this comes out of the fact that the stay times

at the moment are 8 a .m. to 6 p .m.

And we are considering moving that to 10 a .m. to 8 p .m.

in that car park.

The reason is we want, we listened to some of the feedback

from local residents to give them a free slot

at the start of the day so that they could get in

before the tourists get in,

because tourists typically don't get into that car park

until kind of roughly 10 a .m. in the summer months.

And then extending it into the evening

because there was a realisation, particularly this summer,

that people were staying much longer

and that we were therefore losing out on income.

And as a result, people in Borton were losing out

on the tourist levy, which as you know,

we introduced a few years ago.

Every ticket has a piece of money

which goes back into the village.

So that's one's proposal in here.

The second proposal I think is really important is to upgrade all our equipment, our parking

machine technology, so there's 40 ,000 pounds of capital identified to replace those to

improve the experience and just to make sure the machines are top quality, you know, that

we aren't getting any complaints on that.

We do want to continue expanding our electric vehicle charging infrastructure where it's

feasible to do so.

And we want to introduce a tourism levy in the Stone -Morgasbury Road car park.

So this is really kind of hot off the press because I think the Borton

tourist levy has been incredibly successful in bringing money back into the village to combat tourism

And so we want to do the same in Stowe where Stowe have increasingly seen far more tourists particularly this summer

And then finally engaging with town and parish councils to support their initiatives because obviously it's not just about us

It's also about town and parish councils. Some of the towns for instance are considering their own

car parks that they want to run themselves or through private owners.

So what I wanted to say about local government reorganisation is that you know this is a strategy

but it's very tactical in terms of actions because we know that we have this short shelf life and

therefore we're having to focus

very strongly on the next of almost two and a half years, not even that now.

and that's what we're doing in here.

Anything else I want to say?

I guess a couple of other things

that we wanted to think about.

I've been very upfront about civic pride

and making sure that our car parks

not only are fit for purpose, but look fine.

So resurfacing, making sure landscaping is happening,

all those things are important.

They're captured in here too.

I just wanna finally thank the officers.

So, Susan, Maria, Claire, David as well, who's helped on this.

You know, they have been living and breathing this, just as I

have for the last 18 months or so.

Huge amounts of work has gone in, and this is where it comes

to fruition.

So, that's my bit done.

I'm going to hand over to Susan now to add to what I've said.

Susan.

Thank you.

Officer - 1:14:38

I don't think there's much left for me to add.

I think you've covered it so well.

I think what's important to note is from the surveys that we did

with customers, we conducted two lots of surveys at different

points throughout this period of review.

And the majority of our customers are pleased with the

service that we provide and the car parks that we provide.

And I think what's important to note are things that are

important to customers that they would like us to consider are

things like manoeuvrability of the car parks, obviously looking

at demand but we haven't seen what was predicted in the previous strategy in terms of car parking

demand. It was predicted that we would be at capacity and I think what's important is that

Covid has definitely impacted how demand has has trended throughout this period. We've seen

more people move into work and from home which again you know is freed up

capacity in our car parks so we haven't seen the demand that we would have

expected to see which proves you know at the moment we are managing the assets

well. I don't think there's much else for me to say you covered everything. Okay there'll be loads of

questions. I'm sure. Yes on the questions who'd like to kick off.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:15:59

Councillor Cunningham, please.

Councillor David Cunningham - 1:16:04

Thank you. We've... No, that's not true, not we. I've raised this before.

I understand the rationale behind moving to cashless. I do understand that.

But we don't seem to have any

methodology of

offering an alternative, whether that's in conjunction with a local shop or with

some other outlet that can offer the ability for people to go, give cash, get their car registered.

Is that something that is being considered, could be considered?

Because the reality is that if there is a situation where, for instance, the machine isn't working,

the car's not reading properly or whatever, a lot of people don't have smartphones.

It is a very large demographic here in the Cotswolds that don't really have smartphones.

It may have phones but not smartphones.

It is a demographic that I read further along in this pack is only going to grow further in the county.

So it becomes quite difficult to say, well, I know your card didn't work but just use the app because some people aren't able to do that.

There is also the situation where more than a million people in this country are non -banked.

So it's quite a high proportion of 16 to 24 -year -olds that don't have the access to bank accounts,

and so would find it very difficult.

Now, I know the answer is, well, how would they have a car if they're going to – if they borrowed the car, for instance?

We're going into Cirencester to look for work, but couldn't park the car because they have no car and they don't have a smartphone.

So I'm just asking is there a potential for an alternative to be offered in the major car parks via a partnership with local shops or whatever?

Thanks.

Cabinet Member - 1:17:56

I'll answer some of it first and then I'll hand over to Susan.

I mean it's very interesting you say a high proportion of people in the Cotswolds don't have a smartphone.

Where do you get those figures from? Can I just ask you that first?

Councillor David Cunningham - 1:18:06

So based on the demographic in the Cotswolds, and Age UK estimate 24 % of over 64 year olds

don't use smartphones.

Cabinet Member - 1:18:17

Okay, but then you said about the Cotswolds specifically, have you got a figure for that?

Councillor David Cunningham - 1:18:22

Well what's the demographic in the Cotswolds?

The number of people I understand is going to rise in the county to something like an

increase of 40 percent of people will be over 65 by 2040,

is that right?

Cabinet Member - 1:18:36

Dr. David Waddington So, I haven't heard a figure from you.

So, I think I would dispute what you're saying about the lack of

smartphones, I mean, I, you know, people I deal with,

you know, it is only the very elderly, I would say,

who do not have a smartphone, in my experience.

If you can prove to me otherwise, you know, fair enough.

But I think in terms of there are options.

So it's not just about using an app and it's not just about using the smartphone itself.

You can actually phone. Remember you have that option to ring as well as use the smartphone

functions. So that's what I would say on that. You know we are moving to much more cashless

society and I think about my own experience. I mean I used to use huge amounts of cash all

the time, take cash out. The Covid pandemic changed everything for me. I pretty much carry no cash.

And I'm not young, even though I'd love to be.

I'm not young.

So I kind of would just push back a bit on that.

I do understand what you're saying about there are some people in our community who are much

more challenged digitally.

We do have to consider them.

So I'm going to hand over to Susan to see if there's any, because I think that something

was explored actually on this, and I think it didn't go as well as we wanted to.

So can I just bring you in?

Officer - 1:19:56

Hello, yes, we did look at an alternative provision to enable customers to go to a local

shop and purchase parking stays by cash. The system was not reliable and the shops that

would partake were not within a good walking distance

for the customers.

So there isn't the provision within a good distance

from our car parks where that service would work.

And obviously if there's a queue in the shop,

the person would have to wait to get to the front of the queue

and purchase their stay.

In the meantime, their car is parked in the car park

and could be visited by one of our enforcement officers,

which wouldn't be very much fun.

Councillor David Cunningham - 1:20:52

So as of mid -2022, 26 .5 % of the Cotswolds are over 65.

And Age UK estimate that between 23 and 28 % of 65 plus -year -olds

do not use a smartphone.

Cabinet Member - 1:21:08

For the Cotswolds, yeah?

You're sure of that?

Councillor David Cunningham - 1:21:16

28 percent of people above 65 and 26 and a half percent of our population are over 65.

Cabinet Member - 1:21:23

So all right, I mean I've given you my answer before.

Yes, I accept that there are certain parts of society that struggle digitally and you

know that is something where we should all be working to enable people to be more digitally

enabled if you like because clearly that's the way society is going.

I'm not going to sit here and say to you that cash is going to be brought back because actually it isn't and

If we went back to that we would obviously

Include a lot more extra cost to us including if you remember the reason why cash was taken away previously

Was the vandalism aspect so you bring cash back you then have that to contend with

You're shaking your head, but that's exactly what happened

Councillor David Cunningham - 1:22:06

I'm not I'm shaking my head because I'm not asking you to put cash back in the car parks

I'm asking if there is an alternative.

I've had a decent answer from there, not obfuscation or dispute of the facts,

just to say that it was looked at for other shops to be able to offer this,

and it wasn't possible.

I didn't mention putting cash back in the car parks.

I didn't mention about the fact that it gets vandalised.

I just mentioned the fact that was it possible to do something outside,

and I've been given the answer that no, it wasn't.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:22:35

Before I bring in anybody else, I was going to just say that I,

in my electric vehicle was trying to charge in Broughton on the water at the co -op and

there wasn't sufficient phone signals so I actually had to struggle home without, I still

said I had about six miles to go but I couldn't actually charge my car because there wasn't

sufficient phone signals so that's just one of those issues. We have now, and this isn't

a thing, Councillor Slater.

Councillor Tony Slater - 1:23:07

I too found the prac very interesting with all the pracs and figures.

So that was a very comprehensive set of information.

But given that we had a telephone directory to read, I've focused in on a couple of the

areas that I'm more familiar with, which don't seem to be particularly strategic in the responses.

So Simon Sester, for example, appears despite an extra 8000 watt houses coming in in the

next few years.

We seem to be relying on people using healthy transport and cycles to get into town rather

than making any provisions.

So I'm not sure that's a strategy.

That's a sort of fingers crossed that people use bikes.

And similarly in Tetbury, which has got already had 800 houses are in the process of plus

another 320 from the local plan.

It doesn't seem to be any local provision there.

And just one other thing while I put the mic, the action plan on pages 57, 58 on the left,

they don't have any dates or not clear owners with them.

So I'm not sure that's an action plan.

It's just a list of a past list more than anything.

My all favourite car park, White Way, barely received a mention.

Last time I spoke about it, I think there was probably 13 or 14 season tickets there.

Other than tweaking some of the lengths of stay in the local car parks, there's not a mention of it.

So as we've got a break clause coming up in 2027,

I was wondering what the actual strategy is

for that car park.

Thank you.

Cabinet Member - 1:25:16

I'll just start with the white way first.

So the break clause is 2028,

which coincides with this council being abolished.

So we're not going to make a decision before that.

I mean, I think the thing I did mention

in the council chamber to Councillor Foll's question

four or five weeks ago,

or whenever the last council meeting was,

we have tried,

I mean, officers have tried to actually really boost the sales of season tickets at the White

Way by cutting the price.

So the differential between everywhere else in Sarah ancestor and that car park is now

quite stark and you would save a lot of money.

You the raw you by parking in the White Way compared to the other places with a season

ticket.

So we've been trying that and we'll continue to do that.

The trouble is the feedback we get from businesses is that people don't want to walk the extra

what is relatively small amount of time, but still is perception, isn't it?

So given the fact that the way the contract was set up originally, the planning was given

originally was only to have Monday to Friday season ticket holders, not anybody else.

At the moment, we're not going to change that.

And 2028 is when the break force comes and that's the moment to actually look at it for

the new council, quite honestly.

You could say it's kicking the can down the road,

but on the other hand, I mean, you know,

we'd have to unravel a lot of stuff.

We'd have to look at all the planning permission.

You'd have to go back to all the residents

who live nearby, who I've gathered

before my time on this council said

that actually they didn't want lots of people

going in and out all day long on weekends.

So there's a whole stack of stuff there

that, you know, is so difficult to unpack

that we're not gonna go there until a break course happens.

That's the answer to that one.

With regard to the action plan, anything on here that's an action will have to be obviously taken followed through by offices.

So that's down to the cabinet too and obviously senior office to see that through.

When it comes to Sire and Sister and TETRI, I think those were your other points.

With regard to, it was very interesting looking at the stats actually, because obviously TETRI, there has been a lot of feedback from TETRI or from certain quarters in TETRI saying it was a terrible problem, etc.

What we found in the stats quite interestingly is that some car parks

were oversubscribed and others weren't in fact quite the opposite. So we felt

looking at the data that there was capacity there it's just that certain

car parks attract people and certain ones were not attracting people so much.

And there's no other piece of land identified in Tethbury for an

off -street car park. So until that time happens if something is identified then

obviously we as a council or our successor would be interested in that.

Syrinsester, I take your point about the houses coming, again what we found was

looking at the data that there were certain car parks which were very

oversubscribed in Syrinsester particularly right in the centre so the

brewery for instance at certain times of day, other car parks less so including

the beaches for instance. So overall there was generally capacity and apart

from the absolute pinch point times and we felt that at this moment in time

there was no point in trying to identify something extra somewhere given that

there was capacity most of the time in Cirencester. I don't know if you want to

Officer - 1:28:45

add to that. And I'll just add to the act of travel so obviously part of what

we've looked at when we've reviewed this strategy is all the policies and plans

that link into that, because parking does touch quite a lot of areas.

And part of that policy was the transport and connectivity plan, which does focus heavily

on active travel and also supports our green agenda.

So whilst, you know, I appreciate what you say around there does seem to be a, you know,

a strong emphasis on that.

Yes, there does for that reason.

You know, we want to try and encourage people to be more active.

We want to try and encourage, you know, greener and people to be a bit more environmentally

conscious before they jump in the car and drive two miles to go to a shop which they could just walk to.

Councillor Tony Slater - 1:29:28

Obviously I live outside of Sire and Cestor so when I and other people in my

constituency want to visit Sire and Cestor they're not going to go on their bike.

Could more use be made of technology to highlight where there are spaces throughout the town?

So a lot of places you go to and it says X car park has got 500 spaces and Y has got

200 etc.

Officer - 1:29:55

And yes it could but again we're balancing the needs of what the district looks like

as an area of outstanding natural beauty.

So you know we can look into these you know technology but not all the car parks lend

itself either to be able to clock where the spaces are for the in and the out, the layouts

of the car park. Yeah it is expensive.

Officer - 1:30:23

Well also if you do look at the survey data you'll see a lot of people travel

short distances. You know when we did the survey, the customer surveys, you know we

have one of the questions we ask people is how far have you come today and

they're really local. You know so again you know if you try and encourage those

people to perhaps hop on those bikes, make use of the cycle racks which are

underutilised, then that frees up again capacity in the car parks.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:30:52

Thank you. I think Councillor Cunning had something to add. I'm being very kind and

letting him come in.

Councillor David Cunningham - 1:30:59

How many people replied to the survey?

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:31:17

Okay, thank you for that. It's Councillor Bridges, please.

Councillor Nick Bridges - 1:31:23

I'll just come back and repeat what David said or back him up.

When you're paying at a car park, if you've got to contact this card, you can just say,

oh, it's three pounds, tap, and you get a little ticket.

That's so simple.

But instead of that, we're being told we have to get an app on our smartphone.

I don't like that.

And which app?

There's about five different apps around town.

Councillor Joe Harris - 1:31:46

Because as far as I can understand, and Paul will confirm, you can still pay by credit

or debit card on our machines.

what we're asking people to do is if they can pay by the app it's convenient

it might be easier for them but at no point has dippit or credit card payment

been taken away it's some fake news from the opposition a few years ago so can we

just be clear about that Paul?

Cabinet Member - 1:32:11

This is the point I was trying to make you can use a

card you can use the phone you don't have to use the app you can use those

other things in fact if I think about myself actually I generally use a card

And I sometimes use the app.

That's what I, but everyone's got a preference,

doesn't they?

Thank you.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:32:30

Oh, I've got to get my glasses on.

Claire Turner.

Thank you.

Councillor Clare Turner - 1:32:36

I've got a comment in three questions, if I may.

And the first is just a comment about the issue of

local journeys.

I think part of the solution is electric bikes.

So I would love to see that feature more in the

strategic thinking around what we do with car parks.

My questions are, there is lots of lovely data in here and that is great.

I noticed it was going to be published at some point on the website.

Is the data going to be made available to town councils in a format that they could

analyse in the context of thinking about local government reorganisation and what happens

to assets they may want to explore that further and what potential is there for them?

So that's the first question.

Secondly, it's great that new tech's being brought in.

Going back to Gina's point about poor signal,

just looking for reassurance that the new tech is going

to work in areas where phone signal is poor,

because that's one of the problems at the moment.

And the third question, I totally see it makes sense

for Stowe to have a tourism levy introduced,

and Borton and Stowe obviously have the biggest pressures in that respect but what's the reasoning

behind other settlements not doing likewise? You know Chipping Camden has its share of tourists,

I'm sure all these towns do, so what's the thinking behind introducing it for Stowe? Is

that option available to others? If I just take them in reverse order because of how I remember

Cabinet Member - 1:34:07

them, so just in terms of the tourism levy, I mean obviously the Borton tourism levy was a bit

of a punt really to see how it would go and it has been very successful so Borton as you

know is absolutely the central point for tourism. In terms of tourist numbers Stover's has been

increasing a lot compared to the others and that's why we've decided to offer it there.

Chipping Camden it is a very small car park that's the trouble and so if you had a tourist

levy it would be a very small it would still be quite a small number coming back into the

And that's, I think, where even with the stove car park,

there was some discussion about is there enough income

to actually give something enough back to the town.

I can see it working in Sarrancestor, for instance,

but do you need it there, I guess is the question.

So I guess that's a bit of a roundabout way of saying,

we have thought about other places.

I've thought about other places,

but I think with say, Chip and Cameron,

it's just the numbers are so small

that I'm not quite sure how much it would really generate.

Councillor Clare Turner - 1:35:08

On that point, is there an admin cost associated with doing it or is it just whether it's worthwhile

or not?

Cabinet Member - 1:35:18

I'm looking at David or Maria just to add to that.

Officer - 1:35:24

I just wanted to mention that Chipping Camden car park is not owned by Cotswold District

Council. We manage that car park on the other hand at Chipping Camden Town Trust who use

the money locally so we're already operating at cost for the benefit of the

David Stanley, Deputy CEO - 1:35:45

Cabinet Member - 1:35:47

David Stanley, Deputy CEO - 1:35:48

local community. I was just gonna say in terms of there is no admin cost but

there's clearly a cost to the council because we collect that money through

the fee we then have to account for the VAT and reconcile that to the amount

that's available spent so there is a I suppose a hidden cost the more of that

we're doing the more offices time it's taking.

Cabinet Member - 1:36:07

Just in terms of the other points, the data, yeah, the data

will be available and actually, personally, yeah, it's no

problem at all if a town or parish council wanted to see

that data, to analyse it, then absolutely no problem at all.

In terms of new, I think you said about new tech and better

quality, I mean the machines, I'm told, I know Susan and

Maria are super excited about these machines.

They've been to conferences to see these machines.

They really are.

They really are excited about this.

And I've now completed what I was going to say.

Yes, so they are, I'm assured, they're much better quality.

And so, therefore, some of the issues people are having with

quality of signalling, et cetera, will be,

there'll be less of those.

but again.

Officer - 1:37:03

So part of what we will be looking for when we put the tender out for this is all in the specification.

We are aware that there's been connectivity issues.

We are aware that signal drops out.

It's all part of what we received from the valuable feedback from when we did the walkabouts

and obviously what customers have said to us.

So we're going to be investing quite a lot of money in new technology.

We did have a very exciting day.

Thank you.

at the parking exhibition checking out all the new technology and there are lots about

there on the market so part of what we've put forward in the specification is that it must have

that connectivity because otherwise we'll be replacing like for like and ultimately it's

frustrating for customers and we will lose out on income if if it's not working so yeah.

Cabinet Member - 1:37:55

And your first point, I think, was electric bikes.

And so, yeah, I mean, I'm a fan of any form of cycling, to be honest with you,

although I should do more of it personally.

And so that all goes into the mix.

I think the challenges, and Susan has alluded to this, is, you know,

we have bike racks sitting there literally rusting.

So it's how you get people to change that habit, isn't it, from cars to something

else. I know you, you know, this is, you know, incredibly important to some of us, but it's

how you get that, isn't it? So it's incumbent on us all to try and just do more to encourage

people to do so and safely. And that again is a challenge to us at GCC to make sure that

some of our roads and pavements are, you know, cyclable, if you like.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:39:00

Now we have, thank you for all of this.

Councillor Jenkinson.

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 1:39:08

Delightful to be part of a politics -free committee.

overview and scrutiny. First of all, just a general comment. It's my impression that

a lot of really good work is being done by officers and by the cabinet member on

behalf of parking across the district and I think it's worth appreciating that.

It's a very thorough report. A lot of work has gone into producing that report.

It's been seriously prepared and I appreciate that.

So I've only got one question to ask.

It is nevertheless quite a strategic one.

You mentioned something called the Morton in Marsh Transport Hub, which it has actually

been dubbed by the town council, although that's a joke in the town.

And that was on page 38 of your report, sorry 28 of your report, 38 of the pack.

Then again on page 62 there's reference to supporting the community of Morten in Marsh

and through local town or parish councillors to encourage, facilitate or enable the development

of appropriate car parking.

Now, the question I put to you, and I'll let you have a note and I'll give you a copy of

it, but are you aware that for large parts of the community simply do not approve of

the town council's plan for Moreton in Marsh, and therefore responding only to what the

town council is currently saying and leaving out, for example, the legacy of more than

dozen councillors who have resigned in frustration over this very issue would not represent the

situation of the town community as opposed to the town council.

And on that specific point, are you aware and would you be willing to look into the

following that back in 2018 -2019 a plan was developed in conjunction with the Church of

England.

The Church of England have land in the town and were willing to create a car park for

150 to 250, depending on which one was required, car park places in a prime site with perfect

location.

Not only that, but the business, the Morton Business Association supported it and got

the members of the business association to agree to lease car parking spaces for their

employees to be there, and GWR supported it and agreed to lease spaces there for rail

travellers to be able to use as well, therefore guaranteeing a substantial income of hundreds

of thousands of pounds per year for the town. Now, in addition to that, this was going to

be developed by the Church of England at their own expense and provide the land free of charge

in exchange for the provision of some land from the town council.

They wanted to build again at their own expense arms houses on that land, a very worthy cause.

For reasons that are very curious and highly controversial in the town, that was refused,

and although it's been brought back on a number of occasions, it remains refused.

The question I want to ask you is, would you be willing to at least look into the possibility

of taking up this, possibly using some land somewhere else that we have for the Church

of England to be able to build its arms houses, or to facilitate something of this sort, because

we have a major crisis problem of parking in the town that needs to be resolved. And

since the so -called transport hub will cost several million pounds to develop and we do

not have that money in the town, it's unlikely to happen for quite some time. This is a fantastic

creative opportunity that's been developed that has continued to be promoted.

Would you be willing to at least consider it?

Cabinet Member - 1:43:27

Well thank you for that detailed question. I mean I am only partly aware

of what's happening in Moreton. Obviously your Council is living and

breathing this and I'm you know I'm aware of some of the issues around the

Town Council but I don't really want to get into that today because my

knowledge is not sufficient to be able to do so. What I would say is our strategy

is based on the fact that we believe via the town council that there will be this

transport hub and that would provide 50 plus parking spaces. In our analysis we

could see that the current car park, which as you know is pretty small, is

is oversubscribed and so therefore a transport hub as described, I appreciate

you as sceptical about that, would therefore really help to solve that

problem or at least go some way to solving it. In terms of anything else I

think I just need to have a conversation with you offline really because I need

to understand more about some of the things you're saying which I haven't

been aware of before and whether this council should or could be involved in

any of the things you've said. Really can't say any more because I don't have a detailed

knowledge about it, but I'm very happy to talk to you offline about it.

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 1:44:49

Thank you for offering to at least have a conversation to see about that possibility.

And the reason why it is so critical is not just for parking, but because the town really

suffers because the centre of town, instead of being a wonderful market town where retail

and business can be supported and attractive for people to visit has turned into a car

park and that needs to be ended.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:45:17

Right, well thank you for that. I've just got two things I just want to have noted on

the things. When it refers to Morton on page 29, I think it should say ex -British Legion

building, not BT. And also in Chipping Camden on page 36, it's the Astonish. It's the

Road rather than the Ashton Road. I know they're small details but they do tend to get to us.

So it's page 29 and page 36. Going back to the cycle racks which was mentioned by a car

set out, well active cycling and electric bikes and where they're sited, I just wondered

whether it's possible in some cases to consider moving those closer to the town centres. I

don't attract quite as much use.

And I thought that might be helpful.

I did look through there and basically a lot

of the cycle racks, you mentioned the word rusting,

they clearly aren't being used very much,

especially in the, apart from high summer,

in the winter months, not so much.

The other one I really wanted to bring up was the,

I see on page 59 that the fees from the car parks

can be used towards various,

there are nine different things that those fees could be spent on, including public conveniences.

And this is section 55 RTRA 1984, which sort of says how much of the, I mean how is the income from that car parking spent on those different nine sectors,

including, interestingly, public conveniences, and I would be interested to know more about that. Thank you.

Cabinet Member - 1:47:04

I'm going to have to refer to David Stanley actually or Susan.

In terms of cycle racks, now I think you're absolutely right.

I mean it's one of the things we discussed when we were thinking about the use of cycle racks.

And you know obviously establishing that they're really not being used much at all, which is very sad,

is whether they're actually not in the right place anyway.

And as you rightly say, someone cycles in, they would want to be more in the centre of something.

So it's something we do need to look at.

And thank you for raising that.

In terms of income, I'm going to have to defer to the financial guru, David Stanley.

David Stanley, Deputy CEO - 1:47:40

In terms of a response, I'll provide a response, but the parking account that Council is obliged to publish under transparency data sets out.

The income and expenditure that Council's car parks generate.

There are various bits of legislation including the Road Traffic Regulations Act as referred to that set out how councils

can use any surplus generated from its car parking activities. There are a number of case law

activities generally involved in London boroughs where you cannot profit from car parks, but that was largely around on street

parking. The council does through its contract with Yubico through the

provision of toilets through the provision of environmental services use

that surplus as part of its funding for those services but I'll provide a

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:48:35

detailed breakdown for the benefit of committee members. I just wanted to

cheque on how many traffic wardens we employ and whilst you obviously can't

too much details on their rotor because otherwise we might know when we can perhaps get away

with parking somewhere. But they're not very apparent in Chipping Camden. In fact, I think

most people think, well, I'm not sure they're there very much at all. So I just want to

know how much the enforcement happens and how many officers we've got dealing with that.

I've seen the fines. I see that they are obviously active in certain places. But it's a big district

for them to cover and I don't know how well they can cover all the car parking

Officer - 1:49:18

facilities. Thank you. You'll be pleased to know we've now recruited a full

complement of staff so that you know so watch out Chip and Camden. Yeah we've got

them across all it seven days now so they they were alright in about doing

enforcement every day of the week. We we don't have set rotors because otherwise

like you say people get smart to that. But yeah we've got two full -time and

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:49:48

Councillor Joe Harris - 1:49:51

one part -time officers. I think did Councillor Harris want to come in? I did yeah. I signalled earlier and you nodded

and then you never came to me and then I felt sad. So no I just want to take up

the things. I think first of all this is a great report actually so well

done Paul and Susan and the team because you know parking it does feel

sometimes I think at this council like the issue where you can't win so it's

great that we've got a bit of a, if you'll excuse the pun, road map to go forward

with and I think it's actually realistic as well in the limited time frame that

we have left as a council. I think for me just a couple of comments first of all I

think payment is tricky we want to give people flexibility but I think you know

we need to be honest most people can pay by card 97 % of all transactions

now are carried out by contactless payment and that's across the age groups.

So there's not a big group of people who aren't able to park in our car parks

because they can't, you know, we're just not getting that any anecdotal evidence

evidence to suggest that and we were quite open when we introduced it that

we wanted people to get in touch with us travelling today and we haven't had any of

that. I also just think the point was made around getting shops to, you know,

get involved. That is very resource intensive not only on our officers but

somebody who has two parents that run businesses in the centre of our ancestor,

if I went to them and said, oh do you think you can start doing payments for

car parks as well, they'd tell me where to get off I think, because you know

they're strained, they're stressed, they're busy and particularly at peak hours, so I think

that's a non -starter. In terms of some of the detail of the

report, I think that whole thing around our assets is really important. You do

walk around some of our car parks sometimes and feel these look a bit sad

and a bit tired and that's everything from, I know, the potholes in the Waterloo

car park, which you go on about the roads outside.

The pot holes in the Waterloo car park are pretty impressive.

All the way to things like the brewery car park,

where we have, we buy plastic composite signs that as soon as

you dink them, they fall off or break,

and then we're having to replace them every six months.

So, you know, for a little bit more money,

just buy a good old -fashioned sturdy metal sign rather than a

plastic composite one might save us a bit of money.

So really looking at, you know, the materials we use so we can

get good value for money for the taxpayer as well.

And equally, just very simple things like cleanliness,

graffiti in our car parks.

You know, it took a year to get a bit of graffiti removed

from the Ebbegriner's car park, got there eventually,

but we just want to be fleet of foot and on it.

And I know that's what sort of residents expect.

And I expect that because quite often the first thing visitors

to the town see is our car parks.

And if they see a giant phallus drawn on the side of one

of our recycling things, it's not a great advert, is it?

So I think that's really important.

On parking review then, in terms of an on -street parking review, that might be

an offer to answer this, but are we able to adapt this review? So if we have a,

if the County Council will launch an on -street parking review next year,

which I'm hoping they will for Sire and Sester, are we able to be fleet afoot

with this strategy and are you guys able to plug in and you're not going to be

totally bound by a set of strategy or criteria that's so rigid that it doesn't

give us much room for rigour in. So yeah that would be my main question.

Just can I do those first two and then if I may. You're absolutely right about

assets I mentioned that about Civic Pride you know that's important to me I

Cabinet Member - 1:53:13

know it's important to you and the officers know that I speak to them

regularly about this about vegetation in car parks and potholes etc. You know a

lot of the car parks have been resurfaced if you look around there are

you're right there are some that needs to be done but there is a schedule for

that so that's definitely on our radar. Very interesting stat you gave about 97 %

of people using contactless payments according to Barclays who we took to

quarrel with them. And the final point for you Susan I think about GCC on

Officer - 1:53:53

In answer to your question, yes, the whole strategy has been written as a framework,

but the delivery of what we intend to deliver to the community going forward is in the action plan,

and that is very much a working document.

So as policies change, as objectives change, then we can adapt to that over the next coming years.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:54:19

Well, thank you very much. Was there anything now anybody wanted to add? There were recommendations.

I know we've all had, anybody want to have a seat, to come and join this committee there's

a few things to read. But the recommendations for cabinet to approve the new levy in the

Maugham's Creek car park, there's some extra expenditure, and as I haven't quite got the

lot in front of me. I think that we probably would, I don't know if anybody has actually

looked at the recommendations or found them in the paperwork, but I think we're happy

and content. It was a very good report, so we thought that was excellent. I hope it has

been helpful having a discussion around it. There was no particular recommendations that

us as OVN Scrutiny wanted to add, no. So thank you very much for that. What I am now going

suggest is that we have a comfort break of 10 minutes before we go on to the

next item so is everybody happy that we should do that yep thank you very much

indeed

12 Car Parking Strategy

all right oh we live we're live again so thank you very much everybody for coming

back after a little break and we go on to the next item which is the very

important local government reorganisation. The discussion will be

around the choice of creating one or two unitaries in Gloucestershire and as you

will be aware there's a huge amount of information on this which is why it's

not been possible to print it out and post it to you. So Councillor Mike Ebermeer

13 Local Government Reorganisation Proposal

as leader of the Cotswold District Council,

will lead on this, supported by Cotswold District Council CEO,

Jane Portman, who is going to be joining us remotely,

the meeting remotely.

And I hope that will be working.

We will cheque that in a minute.

Before we actually start the item,

I just want to give advance notice

that having had discussions with the monitoring officer

and Democratic Services, I'm likely to be recommending that the call -in for this topic

is dis -applied, as there needs to be five clear days from the cabinet decision and this

is not possible before full council. Ultimately, the decision on whether to create one or two

unitaries in Gloucestershire will be a matter for government to decide, although the different

local authorities within Gloucestershire will all be submitting their preferences. And so,

just to let you know that call -ins, which we haven't had to do many years now at Cotswold,

if the decisions of the cabinet members are subject to call -ins by any three members of

the overview and scrutiny committee, and they must be from at least two different political

groups, and call -ins should only be used in exceptional circumstances, such as when members

have evidence which suggests that the cabinet did not take the decision in accordance with

Council's principles of decision -making. That's in the

Constitution part C1, i .e. there was some flaw in the decision -making process.

So we've just wanted to let you know that in advance of discussions because

they're just we just do not have time to use that call -in process and we will

have to vote on that at the end. So now I shall ask Councillor McEveen to start this topic. Thank you.

Councillor Mike Evemy - 1:58:00

Thank you Chair and just to add to that obviously that point around the call in

the timing of our meeting is two days before the deadline and certainly when

we were setting this up we obviously we put the cabinet meeting after the

council meeting so the council could give its view and the cabinet could take

that into account when it makes a decision after having heard the views of Council.

And obviously that was already in the diary, so we didn't want another Council meeting

especially for this.

So very briefly I will introduce and obviously we have Jane, our CEO, who's led the officer

team and we've also got the other officers.

We've got Helen Martin online as well and we've got David Stanley and Angela Clarage

in the room who have also all been involved in the work that has got us to today.

So very briefly, you will recall that there was a bit of a bombshell last December when

the government in their devolution white paper said they wanted to essentially abolish two -tier

area authorities across the 21 remaining county and district areas, obviously of which we

as it was not in the manifesto and therefore it was a tad unexpected.

But you will probably recall that there was work done previously under the previous leader

here, Satchef to my left, together with his fellow leaders in Gloucestershire, to put

a submission into the government on their earlier timetable about what might be possible

to move to unitary councils in Gloucestershire.

And what we've got now before us is very long reports on two options for that.

And I have attended many meetings with my peers across Gloucestershire, ably chaired

largely by Lisa Spivey, the leader of the County Council.

And when I haven't been able to attend, Tristan Wilkinson has deputised for me in those meetings.

And as Jane and together with her fellow officers have attended many many meetings that have led to the documents

You've got in front of you this evening

Essentially, I would say the reason that I think you're considering this is to give it more more

Diligence and scrutiny than maybe a full council meeting is able to but obviously when we meet next week

All 34 of us can have a say on this in terms of what our opinion is

but clearly I think what I would hope that you would want to get out of this session is to question

myself and the officers around how we've got to where we are and what we're presenting

to you. Just that one final question, and then I'll hand over to Jane.

We did give consideration about whether to consider the greater Gloucester option,

so which is being promulgated by Gloucester City Council.

At the time when Jane and I discussed this, we had not seen that option.

We did not see any papers for that until, I think it was the 4th of November was the

first time it was seen by us.

And it wasn't prepared by our officers in the same way working collaboratively with

their six counterparts and all the other councils.

So Gloucester City Council are part of the process that has led to the paperwork in front

of view for the two options for us to look at.

So we felt that it was only right that actually the Council would consider the two options

that its officers had worked on and that could consider and look at in detail and to see

whether it wished to indicate a preference for either of those or indeed choose not to

indicate a preference.

and clearly if the Greater Gloucester option does get put forward by Gloucester

City Council and the government deems that it is a viable option then we would

obviously need to redo more due diligence on that in the new year but

obviously both those hurdles would have to be met for I think for us to do work

on it which we haven't done thus far.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:02:22

Jane, are you live now? Would you like to...

I am now live. Thank you, Councillor Bloomfield and good evening members. Thank you for inviting

me to say a little bit about this report. As Councillor Efremi has outlined, a very

large number of officers in CDC have been involved in the development of these two proposals.

We're very happy to put them both in front of our council for scrutiny this evening and then

to full council next week and then for a final decision by cabinet. I would just like to say

very happy to take any detailed questions going forward. Thank you.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:03:20

Thank you. Who has got the first question? Councillor Harris. Can I just

Councillor Joe Harris - 2:03:29

ask what is the purpose of us looking at this? Is it just to reassure

ourselves that the process is being followed? Because I always find that a bit

when things come to scrutiny that then go to full council.

You know, we all get the opportunity there.

So what is it we're being asked to specifically look at?

Because I think we want to try and avoid having a debate about

the, you know, the merits of each because we'll have that

at full council.

And presumably we're not being asked to recommend a course

of action this evening, are we?

We're just trying to reassure ourselves that good process

of practise has been followed.

So, yeah, I mean, we could spend two hours debating this,

couldn't we?

or we could not because we're going to do it in two weeks.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:04:11

It is, as I understand it, more for belts and braces

so that we've actually explored everything so nobody

can ever come back and say you didn't look at this thoroughly.

We have got pages.

Madam Chair, I could just say, I think

Councillor David Cunningham - 2:04:33

one of the purposes, Joe, is the calling part of it.

I think that's really one of the things

that Oven, View and Scriptly does in its essence

is to have that opportunity to look at it and say,

guys, have you thought of this?

Now we don't have that opportunity here

and I don't know if that, does it make a difference

because it's actually an executive decision

and so it wouldn't actually go to a vote,

so that would be more difficult to call it in any way.

But beside the point, I think that's why

we look at these things.

I completely agree with you,

when it's also going to go to council, it does seem a bit redundant.

But I think it's an effort to make sure that Ovi and scrutiny looks at it and says,

we're happy with the way that this was done, it should go to full council without being questioned.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:05:18

I think it would be useful if our monitoring officer, Angela, gave her views on it now.

Thank you.

Officer - 2:05:33

I think it's as you've outlined.

It is, to some extent, it's that belt and braces that you've got

the opportunity here to have a good debate, a robust debate,

if you need one, but also in terms of that the principles of

decision -making, that you are happy that this process has

been conducted as it should be, that there's been

every opportunity.

You will have an opportunity at full council, of course you will

on the 26th, to have another debate, but this is to ensure

that scrutiny, if you have the opportunity, you can put

recommendations through to the executive if you wish to, which

the executive obviously with the leader here will take notice of

as they always do.

Councillor Joe Harris - 2:06:13

So Gina, in that case then, it might be useful to hear from the

either leader or the chief exec around what perhaps have been

the areas of contention, what have been the difficult things

in drafting this report, just to get the ball rolling a little

bit, you see what I mean?

I can't look at the process because I don't really,

without coming through every single page of the report.

So it would be good to hear about what some of the tensions

are, you know, how have you got to this point in

a bit more detail.

And actually what is very good this evening,

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:06:42

we've actually got the full report of the senior officers

here so that any aspects of it.

So we've got also Helen Martin has also joined us remotely.

and so it is to really make sure that we have done the due process. So I wonder, Jane, would you like to continue now?

Thank you, Councillor Bloomfield. Thanks, Councillor Harris, for your question. Excellent question.

I would just summarise the process as being very robust.

All seven councils across Gloucestershire have worked very closely together to produce

these two proposals. We've shared an evidence base, which is one of the government's criteria

for submission on any proposals going forwards. We'll be able to produce all the evidence

required by government about the evidence base that we've based our proposals on. As members

will see, the proposals in many parts are very similar, but in some parts there are some

differences and that's why there are two proposals. But I would say the process, which is the

question that's been asked, has been very robust, very collegiate, very collaborative

and is based on a very solid evidence base, which we will be able to explain and make

sure that the government understand why we've got to where we've got to. There are some differences

but it between the two proposals and that is for members to discuss and debate

probably at full council next week is probably the right place to do it but I would be confident

to say to members of the overview and scrutiny panel committee that I can be absolutely reassuring

to you all that our processes have been very robust. I feel very confident that both proposals

have been very carefully constructed based on a very robust evidence base and there are

now decisions to be made across all of the Gloucestershire councils, all seven Gloucestershire

councils about which of the proposals is the preferred proposal to set in front of government.

Thank you.

Thank you. I think Councillor Evans would like to come in.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:09:45

Councillor Mike Evemy - 2:09:49

Yeah, I think just to add in to what Jayna said in response to Councillor Harris's question,

I think actually we can be proud of the way in which we have worked in Gloucestershire

collaboratively on these two proposals. That is not the case necessarily if you

look across to the other 20 council areas that are reorganising and I think

you know that will stand us in good stead for whichever of these two options

is chosen by the government and I am assuming that it's one of these two that

will be chosen and what we as leaders and chief executives wanted to do is to

make sure that the options that these two options that came forward would be

viable now clearly there are differences and there'll be a judgement about which

one we prefer but as members I'm sure aware ultimately that's a ministerial

decision and we will have to implement that ministerial decision and what we

wanted to make sure through this process is whichever of these two the minister

decides we can get on and our officers can get on straightaway and start delivering it and working towards

the change that they say and that's absolutely the critical part I think of this process. There's been healthy challenge between leaders and

concessions on points I think

particularly around some of the things around the judgments on red amber green between the two options

and I think it's been a healthy healthy thing and I think actually the leaders and the counts chief

executives have worked very collaboratively and are probably

closer together at this point, dare I say it, than certainly

they have been.

Obviously, I've only been leader for six months, but my sense is

that, yeah, the councils have worked really collaboratively.

Leave aside the Gloucester City Council proposal on these

two proposals.

Dr. Susan Connolly.

Thank you.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:11:41

I was going to make one further comment about why it is useful

to bring this to Ovi and scrutiny.

We do have the opportunity at this meeting to interrogate the officers as well as the cabinet member responsible.

And that is really helpful for, and I think many of the things that maybe, I'm sure Councillor Abou is not talking about everything,

but there are certain things that the officers will know and have greater detail of just because of their roles.

I've got to ask, Councillor Jenkins is going to come in because he had a comment earlier and he'd like to add that now. Thank you.

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 2:12:15

Yes, it's on this same point as to why, what we can do.

It will, we'll have to see what my questions actually amount to when they come.

But I took, I asked the same question, why are we doing this?

And so I've taken the view to try and look at it as it were strategically with a view

to saying this document contains policy advice, policy guidance on two options that have been

expressed in certain ways.

And I think that there is opportunity for us to make suggestions in terms of the clarification

that we could get now to the Cabinet and then to the Council around how to understand some

of those policy guidelines.

And as I say, that would make more sense when I get to my questions, but, and what other

people question.

But I think that we can ask questions about what does this mean, what does that mean,

what's the significance of this in terms of the comparisons and so forth.

That's my view.

Right.

Thank you.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:13:21

I'm sure Will could be covering off when your questions come.

Councillor Slater.

Thank you, Jack.

Councillor Tony Slater - 2:13:29

Well, I did dive down into the detail.

That was Saturday and Sunday afternoon sorted out.

But ultimately, I think it, having gone down and come back up again, after paragraph 9 .8

and 9 .9, there seems only one logical decision, both financially and logistically.

But as it's been pointed out, that it's not ultimately our decision.

So I've got a couple of small points.

On page 111, it mentions GVA.

And I'm very keen that acronyms are announced

on their first appearance,

but it's not actually explained until page 128.

So perhaps if we can just put what GVA is on there,

it's just a minor point.

On page 111 also, the projected growth of 17 .6,

Does that include the local plan increases or is that just incremental growth for the

current population without the additional 18 ,000 houses?

Just my observation, but a lot of the pages on transformation and case studies whilst

I'm sure they're very interesting.

It seemed to be just a sales pitch for LGR itself rather

than any particular option.

Dr. David

If I might start, Chair, on that last point.

Councillor Mike Evemy - 2:15:03

I think there was some debate and Jane was, I think, in the

discussions about to what degree do we sell LGR because it's been

done to us.

It's not our choice.

It's happening.

And so there was some pushback from leaders on that point that

we didn't want this to be saying, you know,

GLGR is the best thing since sliced bread because essentially

it's not a choice that we've been asked to make.

Helen's on the call, so hopefully she might be able to

answer the bit about the population projections and where

that's come from.

And gross value added, obviously you found that later.

I think these documents must have gone through aeons of

Scrutiny of lots of different people and that hasn't been picked up

Where I probably can't change the documents essentially they're going these same documents are going to all seven councils

But I'm sure that

You know the government hopefully the civil servant that reads that will understand what GBA is

You Jane would you like to come in

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:16:07

Thank you chair, yes happy to come in and happy for Helen to add some more detail but

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:16:14

my understanding is that the population projections have been taken into account in these proposals

but I'm happy to pass to Helen to give any further detail.

I think you've covered it. Thank you, Jen. I would have said exactly the same, but thank

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:16:40

you. We've got David Stanley who would like to

come in. So in the document it sets out how the population

David Stanley, Deputy CEO - 2:16:47

change has been calculated using the ONS mid population estimates from 2023 and then following

that through to 2047 to get those numbers.

So it's based on a population growth based on what ONS are

saying, it won't take into account delivery of future

homes and future population growth through that because

that's not in the estimates that ONS use.

It's a population growth.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:17:18

Well, there's an obvious follow -up question.

Councillor Tony Slater - 2:17:22

does the population growth from the local plan impact either or both of the

options that we're looking at?

Councillor Mike Evemy - 2:17:36

I'll have a go at answering that and Helen's on the call. So I mean clearly obviously I

suspect not having studied it and Helen that the if the housing target is

delivered in the period and there's lots of big ifs there. I suspect it will be

higher than the growth that the ONS predicts for the district but obviously

there's lots of hypotheticals in the next 20 years and clearly that would

have an effect on potentially things like age profile, demographic profile,

service requirements around things such as schools. All of that I'm sure will

would be something that the new council

would have to consider as in when we hand,

hopefully hand them over a new local plan,

they would have to take that on board,

but I'll hand over to Helen to add anything

to what I've said.

Thank you, Mike.

I think it's a difficult question to answer in many ways,

because there's a number of unknowns.

So we will be shooting towards our housing target,

as will our neighbours.

Some of that will be within our district,

some will be within neighbouring districts.

It depends where the employment land ends up. It depends on ageing population.

So I think it will have an impact.

I think exactly how that looks and where that looks is difficult to calculate at this moment.

But as we said before, this is based on what we know for housing numbers and how we project it to go.

Where that growth ends up and where those housing numbers are delivered is a slightly different thing.

And the housing target for planning is calculated on a slightly different basis.

and with that affordability factor.

So it's a little bit apples and pears, I'm afraid,

in terms of what we're comparing,

but it obviously will have an impact

if we see significant growth in our area

or within the county.

Thank you.

Thank you for that.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:19:28

Councillor Turner.

Thank you.

Councillor Clare Turner - 2:19:34

I have a process related question.

There's obviously a huge amount of work that's gone into this and as colleagues

have alluded to there's also been a lot of time put in by councillors going

through the documents. There's assumptions and hypotheticals in there

but I'm certainly of the view that we've been presented with a good amount of

information upon which to form an opinion. So my question is around when we

debate this as a full council, it's quite possible that we'll all be furiously

agreeing with each other on what the best option is, but in the event that

we're not all speaking with one voice, I wonder if you could just comment on how

that debate will then be incorporated into the cabinet meeting and the

decision -making that happens at that stage. Thank you Claire and thank you for

Councillor Mike Evemy - 2:20:31

acknowledging the massive amount of work that the officers have largely

done on this and to get I think two robust proposals in front of us to

consider. I think clearly we as a cabinet need to take into account the view of

Council and you know I don't know what that view is going to be yet but you

know I think my expectation is that cabinet will be of the same view as

Council. I mean, clearly the political balance of the authority is one that you might think

that's likely to be the case. So clearly we'll need to take that on board. I might be in

a position to give you a better answer on that during the debate next Wednesday afternoon.

But it's my view that we will consider very carefully and it's very, very likely we will

have the same view as the council. Obviously there'll be different, I

anticipate there might be different views within the council but you know if

there is a division and it's clear the view of the council then we will

absolutely take that on board and almost certainly will agree with it. Thank you.

I've got Councillor Jenkinson.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:21:49

Thank you very much chair.

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 2:21:53

So first I wanted to echo the comment about my thanks to the officers and to the

to yourself obviously leader

for the immense amount of work that's been done on

developing this in conjunction with others across the county.

It's really quite a monumental effort, and on top of all of the other things that we

have on our plate at the moment, it must have been quite a challenge.

I think that there's an impressive – it's an impressive report that's been pulled

together by the county in very many ways, and as such, I think that lots of praise is

due to lots of people.

I want to first begin by proposing a recommendation for an adjustment in the wording at 1 .1.

At 1 .1, you might consider that I'm being nitpicking here, but I think that it somewhat

suggests, it somewhat suggests, Michael, that we might be supportive of the government's

desire to seek to simplify structures and improve efficiency and strengthen accountability

in this process. It doesn't say really clearly that this is their assumption and it's their

proposal that this would have these effects.

It may or may not have these effects, but unless we take the

view that we are actually supporting the government's

decision and think it's a really good idea that they have

proposed these unitaries, I think that the wording ought to

be adjusted in such a way that when it goes to Cabinet and when

it goes to Council, it clearly indicates that this is a

government initiative that we are responding to, and that the invitation to response is

something that we've been in effect, we have to do. And in relation to that, that's my

recommendation, in relation to that, the question is, are they covering all of our costs in

doing that, or are we like all the others in the county out of pocket in the process

Councillor Mike Evemy - 2:24:33

doing this. That's my first question. So if I can, David I think would answer the

point on costs. I know there was some money provided but yeah some of which

was used then to fund public engagement and was provided, supported some of the

work done collaboratively on these proposals and some of that was given to

lost to City Council to work on their proposal. I take the point about, you make

about the introduction, I would look to the Chief Executive. Ultimately the

report is written in such a way it doesn't seek to, it's written in a

factual way for that reason that, and I can make the point maybe more directly

than an officer might, but I don't know whether the Chief Executive wishes to

comment on what Councillor Jenkinson has just said about the first paragraph.

Thank you Councillor Efremi. Thank you Councillor Jenkinson for your

question. With regard to the statement at 1 .1 and I quote the UK government's local

reorganisation programme seeks to simplify structures. One may or may not disagree with

that motivation, but that is the government's rationale for this programme and that's what

set out in the report. On your second point about costs, Section 151 Officer David Stanley

will no doubt say a little more about this, but the government has provided each of the

two -tier areas across England with funding, but the transition costs as set out in the

say exactly how much it's likely to cost. There are differences between the one unitary

proposal and the two unitary proposal about the cost of transition. So, the money that's

been provided by government has helped establish, as Councillor Efremi says, some work around

public engagement. It's also provided funding for support to officers by bringing in a consultancy,

PricewaterhouseCooper, PwC, to help us put together these proposals. But the transition

costs between now and vesting day will be borne by the seven councils across Gloucestershire,

and that is true for all areas that is subject to reorganisation.

But I'll pass to David Stanley for further detail about that.

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 2:27:45

I'll just step in and thank you, but I was asking specifically about the costs in preparing this,

not about the transition costs.

Okay, my apologies. My apologies, Councillor Jenkinson.

The costs of preparing this, there was funding provided by the government

for preparing this business case. That funding was held by Gloucestershire County Council

on behalf of all seven councils. It's been used in two ways. The first way was to bring

in PricewaterhouseCooper, PwC, as a consultancy agency to help us preparing the business case.

And secondly, to do some public engagement work, as you will be aware of, that took place in the summer,

to find further details of the public's views about local government reorganisation, what's important to councils,

and what their priorities are for service reorganisation going forward. They are the

two consultancies that we've used that money, that government money to pay for during that period.

And the office of time that you very kindly alluded to that has been put into this,

that has not been funded through government or any other funds that's been done across all seven councils.

All councils have put officer time into this without any recharge. Thank you.

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 2:29:35

Can I just... So, in that case, I think it's worth noting that this is being done to us and we are paying for the costs.

We have been told to do it, and we are paying for the cost of doing it.

All right, Jeff, we're off.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:29:52

I think David Stanley will probably concur with this. Thank you.

David Stanley, Deputy CEO - 2:29:58

The amount of money that Gloucestershire as an area was awarded by the government for proprietary costs was £266 ,000.

pounds. That has, as Jane has set out, paid for a lot of the communication support and

the engagement that we've had with PWC. The actual additional cost to this council is

negligible because that 266 ,000 has covered the cost of that, but there's clearly been

significant officer input into that, so there is an opportunity cost. And as Jane has set

how the transition costs from when the government made the

decision to implementation and beyond are far greater than that

and the government in some of the responses they gave in

earlier in the year around May time indicated that the balance

of that would fall on council so there would be no further

funding from the government to support those transition costs.

That has been the case in other areas that have been through

unitarization, for example, around North Yorkshire.

Those costs are broadly similar to the transition costs that are

in our documents, the 1UA and the 2UA.

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 2:31:10

So my second question, unless there's someone else.

Okay, so my next question is there's no difference in the

vision and challenges list between the 1UA and the 2UA options.

They're an identical set.

I'm sure that's very convenient, and it does enable a kind of

comparison between the two options.

But I do not think that we can necessarily assume that exactly

the same options would apply for a 1 UA and a 2 UA in reality.

And if there was a 2 UA, the same priorities might not apply

to each of the two unitaries that were created.

As such, I have the impression that this is an analysis that

enables us to be able to get, in a relatively convenient,

efficient, and effective way, some kind of measure

of comparison.

But it would affect the overall reality of the situation

in the event of a choice to go, for example, for two UA,

or one UA, whichever one might diverge from that particular pattern.

Councillor Mike Evemy - 2:32:33

Thank you, Angus. I think that vision and ambition was worked on collaboratively

and I think could equally apply, that's why it's in both of them, to the one UA

or the two UA options. You're absolutely right, if there are two councils they

could choose to have different priorities because, you know, they would

be elected separately, separate sovereign bodies.

Indeed, if there was one, that council could choose

to have different vision and ambition

than what is in this document,

because ultimately there will be an election

for councillors to that authority,

and they will set the agenda.

What we were asked to do was to come up with something.

That's why it's the same for both.

It was collaboratively worked on

between the leaders and the chief executives.

The government were looking for us to produce something

and that's what we've produced.

But I take your point that as and when those authorities

come into being, they could choose different visions

and different ambitions.

Thank you, I think Angus you have one more question?

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:33:43

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 2:33:48

Well, you give, you get, you lose hundreds of pages to review.

I'm being as strategic as I can.

You ask a question, there's a comment on page 4 .3 on page 98 to the effect

that the West would have disproportionately greater needs

than the East in the event of two unitary authorities.

Now, this is a very interesting situation.

In the event that we had two unitaries, one of them would

have disproportionately greater needs.

There's obviously an underlying situation today between these

different areas, and that reflects the already existing

variation between these different parts within the county.

And therefore, resources are already being allocated by the

county across, and the districts are different.

So what this is showing up is something whereby an important

factor in the choice is to take notice of something that's

already existing as a situation.

What I'm asking here in relation to this is,

Is this mean that in effect today that those districts that are in the east are supporting those districts that are in the west and that that would break down in the event of 2 UA?

Councillor Mike Evemy - 2:35:28

I would say no because we have a single County Council that makes decisions on

the allocation of resources for its services and this difference is

fundamentally down to the distribution of need across Gloucestershire for the

services provided by the County Council. So I'm sure you know members will be

aware and may have read in the reports about the differential in terms of the

cost of adult social care between the West and the East and that is a

significant factor in that financial difference. So at the moment that is

accommodated through the County the single County Council so it's obviously

matter for members to consider when we consider this next week if we chose to

if we ask the Minister to choose to go for two unitary authorities there is

clearly a different level of demand for those services in one of the two unitary

authorities than the other and therefore at the moment if you

disaggregate the GCC funding between the two, that does produce a deficit on the

West and essentially a surplus on the East. Obviously funding for the local

authorities in future would be a matter for the government and they could

determine because of that to change the allocations to the East and the West but

obviously that can't be determined at this point. So I'm interpreting that at

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 2:37:07

the moment, in effect, the rates collected in the parts of the county that have paid

larger rates are able to support the whole county disproportionately at the moment, so

to speak, except that it's meeting needs.

So to conclude, I'd like to know, given with the figures in terms of the difference

in overall benefits financially, you know, 20 million and so forth, in the context of

almost a billion pounds, 850 -odd million pounds worth of overall budget.

How robust do we believe these estimates actually are?

How seriously should we take them as differences?

And secondly, do we know what effect these two choices, the 1 UA and the 2 UA, would

have on our own district constituents?

And is that a factor that we ought to be taking into account?

Councillor Mike Evemy - 2:38:20

If I kick off and then I might invite David particularly, and Jane may want to answer.

So David can talk to, I think, the robustness of the finances

and an awful lot of work he and his colleagues have done looking

at them.

I think when you look at it, and they spent an awful lot

of time to own an overall budget of 851 million pounds,

we have a saving potentially of 21 million in one option,

I think 11 million in the other option.

So I think what that does is it challenges the question

at the start of the report about actually the financial savings in terms of the significance

of the financial savings that could be generated by unitary authorities.

But I'm sure David can speak to the robustness of the figures.

I think, obviously, members must consider what's material for them.

We obviously all represent people in this district and we will have to think

when we make this decision next week what we feel is best for the people in

our district and the best more broadly for Gloucestershire going forward and

that will be something for us to consider as we come to our decision and

ultimately it will be a a political judgement that we make about which we

think is the best, but reminding members that ultimately it's a political judgement that

a minister will make.

Thank you.

Thank you, Chair.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:39:56

David Stanley, Deputy CEO - 2:39:57

Just in terms of, I suppose, explaining the process that has been undertaken around the

financial model that PwC have led on, that has involved all the CFOs from across Gloucestershire

and providing data that has fed into that model.

So whilst I wouldn't personally say those estimates are robust

because it's utilising data from six other councils, I can say

that the data that I've provided is based on our MTFS,

our forward projections.

It's as robust as our current position is.

That said, the process that we've been through has been one

that's open and has been challenged by CFOs.

If you get six, seven CFOs in a room and PWC, you're going to

get plenty of questions and plenty of challenges, and that

model was refined as a result of a lock -in that both the chief

executives and the CFOs, I think they advertised as a lock -in

to get us to turn up.

But what that did is PWC ran through, this is what we've put

fed in, this is what we fed out, these are the assumptions that

been made and those assumptions were tested around that. So particularly around tax -based

figures, positions on council tax. So part of the reason why there is a difference between

the single unitary and the East -West split is because at the moment the county base their

council tax take on the tax base for the whole of Gloucestershire in an East -West model,

you've only got the tax base for each of the three constituent councils which will be different.

So the aggregation up at the moment enables the county to theoretically raise a greater

amount of support services universally across Gloucestershire, whereas in an east -west model

they would only have the ability to, for those unitaries, only have the ability to raise

the council tax in those particular areas.

There has been some use of a PIXEL model.

pixel we use here to help us with interpreting changes that are coming through the fair funding

review, and what the estimates that are included in this model take into account the likely

impact of the fair funding 2 .0 reforms that are due to come through from April of next

year.

We should get the allocations of those just in time for Christmas, but there has been

in a degree of estimation as to how that would split in a two unitary model.

That won't be a perfect split, but the degree of accuracy at that level is going to result

in some movement of those numbers over time.

The key thing will be how, as part of the transition period, the councils, either the

single unit tree and the districts.

Prepare for that knowing those numbers might change

because we've based it on imperfect information.

We got the perfect storm at the moment

with modelling for LGR in the middle of

what is a significantly changing financial picture

for local authorities.

So Gloucestershire as a whole will probably see

a reduction in funding,

but there is some change at district level

in terms of what money we will see as a council,

which will be less,

But there might be other councils such as Gloucester City, because of the deprivation

measures we'll see more.

Understanding that three years before it happens does require a degree of estimation.

But we're confident as a group of CFOs that we've challenged that, that what's set before

you is a reasonable basis to make an informed decision on.

What I wouldn't say is that will be the exact number that a council has from the 1st of

April, 2028.

It will be different.

But understanding why it's different and how those shadow authorities react to that will be the important test

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:43:57

Thank you for that detailed and clear answer. I've got councillor Cunningham

Thank you, Madam Chair

Councillor David Cunningham - 2:44:04

Actually this is for David if you if you don't mind

The yeah, he couldn't be happier

Let's say the

21 .3

for ease of math, we're looking to set aside 2 million as our part of that transition costs.

How much control will we as a council have over that 2 million over the next two and

a half to three years?

David Stanley, Deputy CEO - 2:44:39

That's a very good question, one that we're working through as a group of councils. So

So I have within the report set out a reasonable expectation

that based on the transition costs that have been estimated

in that document that it wouldn't be unreasonable for us

as a council to start preparing to set aside an amount of money

for a future cost.

It is likely that there will be a single authority holding that

transition budget that would be accountable for that.

That's likely to be the county council,

they're the biggest one currently.

But there would be a way in which those decisions would be

scrutinised and you would expect the chief executives,

the leaders and the chief finance officers to be part of

that governance process to ensure that money is only being

spent on those elements of the transition plan that

are absolutely essential.

So there is also a profiling issue, so that $21 million,

$24 million won't necessarily be spent all on day one and it will

be phased over a period of time.

But there will be a clear process to ensure that our contribution into that part, which

will need to be agreed as part of the budget -setting process, is being spent wisely.

But that will be at a programme level rather than, I suppose, this council or other councils

going through the list of what it could be spent on, saying, well, we don't like this,

we don't like that.

So there's an element of trust in that process, but also reassurance from members that, as

CFO I wouldn't want to be setting aside or advising members to set aside two

million pounds without a mechanism to report back to you that it is being

spent on exactly the types of things that has been set out in that transition plan.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:46:23

Thank you and I think our CEO Jane Portman wants to come in is that right?

Yes thank you Councillor Bloomfield I just wanted to add a little bit to

David's response there. So first of all, just to reassure members that £2 million is a

figure that we've just estimated at this point. It has not been agreed. We have not agreed

a formula for paying for transition costs. This is just, as David set out, an indication

at this time about the possible quantum of transitional costs for CDC. So that's the

first point I wanted to make. Secondly, as many of you know, I have been through this

LGR process in the past, and in the past, good governance of financial aspects of transitional

costs has been at the forefront and it has been important to make sure that whatever

the actual pound sign is for the transitional costs is very well managed and very well scrutinised

and very well confirmed by elected members. It's not an officer decision about how those

costs are apportioned and how they're spent. It is considered by chief executives and then

there's always been, in my experience, recommendations to the leaders of the constituent councils

up until the point of the shadow authority about how any transitional costs incurred

are spent and they are very carefully scrutinised and reported to members and voted upon. That's

the process that I'm familiar with. So between now and, sorry, well, yeah, now and shadow

authority time, any transitional costs occurred would be considered by chief executives and

reported to the seven leaders of the Gloucestershire Councils for a collective decision about those

costs. From May 27, that would then be the business of the Shadow Authority.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:48:59

Thank you. Councillor Cunningham has got a little follow -on that he's just strept up.

Councillor David Cunningham - 2:49:05

a recommendation into cabinet that whichever of the decisions is made, that cabinet gives

an assurance to ONS that there will be the right level of scrutiny offered in terms of

whatever decisions are made at a higher level, at a wider level,

and reported back to council on a regular basis.

And by that you mean on the financial side?

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:49:39

Councillor David Cunningham - 2:49:42

On the financial side of the transition, yes.

I'll say I need to discuss that with the chief executive

Councillor Mike Evemy - 2:49:49

who's obviously got a lot of experience,

but absolutely, as Jane was describing that,

I was thinking, okay, so absolutely you'll want to scrutinise what we are doing in terms

of, certainly if we're spending money, but what we're doing in terms of the transition.

And I'm sure there'll be a programme, and Jane might tell us about how that's worked in Somerset

or in Dorset where she's been through this process before.

So that you, as our overview and scrutiny committee, can scrutinise what I'm doing,

what the officers are doing, what any of our other cabinet members are doing in

terms of how we're working collaboratively once ultimately I guess

the decision is is taken by the government but obviously if we need to

spend money in advance of that I'm sure you'll want to scrutinise what we're

doing. Jane obviously wants to say a bit more.

Yes thank you. Councillor Cunningham raises a very important point because

Because the role of overview and scrutiny in CDC is very important in this process and

quite rightly we'll wish to cheque and challenge and scrutinise a variety of matters, not least

the financial contributions for the transition process, but probably the overall progress

on delivering and implementing the government's decision once that's been made.

So, I would suggest to the chair that she may wish to consider, may not be at this meeting, but over time,

about how frequently she would wish officers and Councillor Evermere, the portfolio holder for LGR,

to report back to overview and scrutiny on those two matters.

So, the two matters I would suggest you may wish to take a report back on is the overall progress of the LGR implementation programme

and secondly, and specifically, the funding contributions that CDC is making to those transition costs.

You may wish to consider that as part of your work programme going forward into 2026, 2027.

There will be a change when shadow authorities are established.

According to the government timetable, shadow authorities will be established following elections in May 2027.

At that point, it's very likely, if the government follows its own predecessor arrangements,

that they would require us, and by us I mean Gloucestershire, to establish overview and

scrutiny arrangements during that shadow authority period of 11 months before vesting day, and

Therefore, there would be a shadow Oviun Scrutiny Committee or committees, if it's one or two,

for that shadow authority.

But prior to that arrangement, so that's May 2027, this council, CDC council, may wish

to consider in terms of Ovi and Scoot -N -E arrangements taking a regular report up to

that transition period to consider the two points I've just set out. But that's

for you chair to consider. You may wish to consider it tonight, you may

wish to take that under advisement and consider it at a future meeting but I

would suggest that your committee take that under consideration?

Thank you for that.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:53:57

My instant reaction, and it's not entirely due to the time,

but partly due to the time,

that we got a meeting on the 1st of December

and with everybody's agreement, when everybody's thought about it more,

we will also have had the vote on it when it got, you know,

the final decision of full council and then cabinet,

and it might be helpful to do it then.

Is everybody happy?

Actually, my Vice Chair, Councillor Jenkins, is something he would also like to add.

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 2:54:26

Thank you, Chair. So on that point, I would have thought that was the right time for us to consider that point.

But a supplementary is that

there's going to be a process involving

multiple district councils and the county working together over quite a long period of time

preparing for this.

I have the impression that elsewhere some form of overview

and scrutiny committee has been set up for that process,

in other words, across the different bodies,

to scrutinise what is going on.

Is that the case?

And might it be something else that we consider recommending

to our other colleague bodies to say, wouldn't it be a good idea

if the different districts and the county contributed

representatives to a central scrutiny for the overall process as well as

whatever each of us does in our own in our own lights. Jane I think you're

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:55:31

probably best equipped to answer this. Councillor Jenkinson's quite right that

other LGR processes have done that. I would certainly say that you should take

that under consideration and should you wish to recommend that to other councils, then

we can certainly as officers take that forward as a consideration.

It would probably, and I'm sorry I don't know the detail of this, Angela as monitoring officer

might be able to help with this, but it would probably mean you would need to establish

a joint committee as part of the constitution. That is my experience in the Dorset, Bournemouth,

Christchurch and Poole area where we had actually already in the constitution got a joint committee

set of arrangements constitutionally and we were able to use that arrangement to establish a joint

overview and scrutiny committee but I'm afraid I would need to defer maybe

to Andrew or Angela to say if we've got that provision in our current

constitution or whether we would need to establish that.

Officer - 2:56:50

Through you chair thank you, thank you Jane. We do have the provision within our

constitution so we could consider that at a time when the committee thought it

was appropriate. So perhaps that's something that whether you want to add to your discussion

on the 1st of December when everyone's had a chance to reflect and after the Council

debate and Cabinet debate on the 26th or at a later date next year perhaps.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:57:18

No, well thank you. No, I think that both things should be considered on the 1st of

December. I think it would be a good timing for that. And then we can have a bit more

background work into it and so we are actually in a position to make both those decisions

on the financial and the overall structure, but it's the updating. I would normally think

in these things that we should be looking at that quarterly, but I'll be looking. If

everything else is sort of decided, or I think the real thing we've got to vote on is the

call -in, and this is absolutely vital that we get it right. What it is, is it's going

to be refounding to the cabinet that we disallow, that we add in that it's disallowed calling

on these services. We just don't have the time to do it. And I'm sure that having had

the full council discussion, that the discussion today and the cabinet will come forward and

I think it would be highly unlikely that we would not, we would be calling it in in any

event. How would you like me to phrase the actual recommendation?

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 2:58:28

That's something we're recommending or something we're agreeing?

Go forward as a recommendation is it?

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:58:35

Councillor Mike Evemy - 2:58:39

Andrew Brown, Officer - 2:58:44

So the decision on dis -applying call -in is a decision for cabinet and that does require

consultation with the Chair of the Urban Union and Scrutiny Committee.

However, the final version of the report hasn't yet been published.

I think the Council papers get published tomorrow, so there's an opportunity to work into the

final version of that report, an extra resolution that this is this is

dis -applied if you know if everyone's happy with that. It seems you know

there's no no dissent on this as far as I can tell.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 2:59:20

Councillor Mike Evemy - 2:59:22

Just a clarity then, so does it require me essentially to, as the chair of the

cabinet, to ask you as the chair of the Ovian Scrutiny Committee to

dis -supply call in and presumably I can only do that

once we've actually made the decision, which will be

obviously on the 26th of next week.

So is that right?

So the decision to dis -supply, if you're

Andrew Brown, Officer - 2:59:44

minded to dis -supply, that should be set out in the

report that gets published tomorrow.

I think it's clear that I am minded to do that given

Councillor Mike Evemy - 2:59:55

that we have a deadline that the government has

fixed at the 28th and we have our meetings two days prior to that. That's

what I would seek to ask but I will do that and if we can incorporate that in

the report then I'm comfortable that that's a reasonable request on behalf of

us as the cabinet.

The advice we're having is that not necessarily...

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 3:00:18

I think let's go to...

I think it's already been decided that we can't call the increases happy.

Let me just not say that Councillor Efremi is in his role.

I don't think anyone wants to hear this, but I think what we're saying is that

Councillor David Cunningham - 3:00:40

Councillor Evermere, as the leader of the Council, is asking the chair of the Overview and Scrutiny Committee

if the Overview and Scrutiny Committee agrees that they will not exercise calling on this matter

due to the times pressures that we have. And we can agree on that tonight.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 3:01:00

I think that's put it very concisely and accurately. If everybody would, I just think we vote to concur.

We don't think we need a proposal and a seconder, but we all agree that we're satisfied with that.

Well, thank you very much and thank you Jane and for Helen and everybody else who's been

present to help us with this one. We will prepare more for the 1st of December on this.

I don't expect it to be too long in addition to what we're covering then. Before you all

dash off, I can see there's a bit of a thing, we haven't quite finished yet.

Councillor David Cunningham - 3:01:39

Can I ask just a very quick question? Are we going to have a non -binding vote at full

Council as to what we are putting forward?

Councillor Mike Evemy - 3:01:52

Obviously it's a matter for Council as to what it seeks to have a vote on. My view is

that we that council will have a vote on on a resolution so that people can

express their views and that we can see the clear differences if there are any

in terms of members of the views of members of the council between the two

options and then we can take that into account when the cabinet meets

subsequently right well before yes we are actually going to a recommendation

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 3:02:24

and it has been inspired by Councillor Cunningham, so don't rush off yet. The recommendation,

the progress on the implementation of local government reorganisation in Gloucestershire,

including decisions on the use of transition funds allocated by the Council, are subject

to scrutiny and reported to full Council until such a time as a shadow authority is established.

Are you happy?

Would you like?

What's that going to look like in practise?

Councillor Joe Harris - 3:02:58

Because my experience of these meetings is we cram an awful lot in.

If we've got basically a standing item, which is going to probably come most things about

LGR, we are going to spend a lot of time probably debating that at every meeting.

So I think from my point of view, it's about having a process that satisfies scrutiny that,

as we've already discussed, things are being done properly

and we're content with that.

But at the same time, it doesn't add to what I can see already,

totally chock -a -block work plan and very long meetings.

And we've already had to call a special meeting, haven't we,

this month, which unfortunately I couldn't make.

So I just think from my point of view, you know, too, I think from

my point of view, it's having absolute clarity on what that's

going to look like because it's not only ourselves we've got to

think about. We also have to think about the time that officers are going to

invest in pulling all of this together. It is a lot of work, our officers are

really stretched as it is and for me it is about creating a happy balance

between satisfying us and making sure that we're not overloading ourselves or

indeed council officers. Thank you Councillor Harris for that view. I'm just going to

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 3:04:05

quickly ask David Stanley because he is presumably on the financial, which is

three, but we'll be monitoring it closely anyway, so perhaps we'll have these figures

at his fingertips. I'm just checking.

David Stanley, Deputy CEO - 3:04:31

Jane, you go first and then David, or one or all of you.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 3:04:33

I'm really happy to start, Chair, if I might. I've seen reports like this in the past, and

I do absolutely take Councillor Harris's point that this needs to be a succinct report for

consideration by scrutiny and not detract from the other very good important work that

needs to be done by scrutiny.

I might suggest a sort of framework that's like a report card, progress report, summary

summary of actions that have been taken, summary of the costs that have been incurred, of transition

costs, have it like a scorecard or a report card that you're very familiar with in terms

of performance report cards, and have a succinct item on a quarterly basis to your committee

meeting where you are able to ask any questions and seek reassurance from officers.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 3:05:39

That's, did I hear fine by me? That sounds absolutely brilliant. Thank you very much

Jane and I'm also getting an offer from David Stanley. So Angus would like to bring

in something.

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 3:05:53

Chair, I'm perhaps a bit confused because I think we discussed whether we would discuss

this issue today or whether we would discuss it at the beginning of December, and at the

time there were two scrutiny committees under consideration.

What we've now got is a recommendation only at the moment for one of them, or you're recommending

– you've got two recommendations, but you hadn't read the other.

Andrew Brown, Officer - 3:06:17

I think the recommendation from today was about the point that David Cunningham made

about financial decisions being open to scrutiny and the principle of that.

James talked a bit about which form that could take and then this committee will

at the next meeting is it first of December or early December you could you

can think about you know there's different options for scrutiny there's

been talk of part of partnership committee and joint joint committee I

mean that probably means fewer members a small number of members from each

council kind of working together or you could as yourselves you can establish

working groups the things you could do or you should have a regular reports to

committee. So that, I think that part of the discussion is to be revisited but

this recommendation is that principle.

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 3:07:05

All right, thank you. So do you want to propose that and who would like to

second it? Councillor Turner and do we want to go to a vote on that? Thank you very

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 3:07:20

much. The final part, and thank you everybody for that, we have had quite a long meeting,

we do tend to have quite long meetings, I do try to do my best to clock watch, it's

not, you know, but there are just so many things that people want to talk about. We've

had updates only from HOSC because you haven't had a meeting?

You haven't got a meeting?

We haven't had a meeting.

We've got it coming up.

So there's no meeting.

It was a detailed one from Councillor Dennis Neill.

I think it's very interesting.

I recommend everybody reads it.

I'm not going to go through it in detail, and she's not here to respond today anyway.

So thank you very much, everyone.

I hope 1st of December, when we've all been doing jingle bells and everything else, it

won't be quite so long.

But thank you very much for your time today.

Thank you.

Please provide any feedback/comments relating to the live webcast here. Any feedback submitted will be received to the Democratic Services team.

Required field

Name

Comments

Need an accessible hCaptcha?
Check available options.
Sign up to hCaptcha or Log in to hChaptcha.

By clicking Send feedback, you agree that Cotswold District Council and Public-i can use the information above to review your feedback and contact you about it. See our Privacy Policy for more details.

Overview and Scrutiny Committee - Monday 17 November 2025, 4:00pm - Cotswold District Council Webcasting

Overview and Scrutiny CommitteeMonday, 17th November 2025 at 4:00pm

Agenda

Slides

Transcript

Map

Resources

Twitter

Forums

Speakers

Feedback

Votes

1 Apologies

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:00:44

Julia Gibson, Officer - 0:01:50

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:01:59

3 Declarations of Interest

Councillor Joe Harris - 0:02:11

Councillor Michael Vann - 0:02:20

Councillor Tony Slater - 0:02:24

Councillor Nick Bridges - 0:02:27

Councillor Clare Turner - 0:02:34

Councillor David Cunningham - 0:02:37

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 0:02:42

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:02:49

5 Matters Arising from Minutes of the Previous Meeting

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:03:17

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:03:40

6 Chair's Announcements

7 Public Questions

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:05:16

8 Member Questions

Officer - 0:05:42

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:05:49

9 Report back on recommendations

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:06:25

10 Work Plan and Forward Plan

11 Leisure Contract - Freedom Leisure

Guest - 0:07:29

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:07:32

Cabinet Member - 0:07:56

Guest - 0:10:00

Guest - 0:10:16

Public Speaker - 0:10:28

Officer - 0:26:31

Public Speaker - 0:27:15

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:31:07

Councillor Clare Turner - 0:31:30

Public Speaker - 0:32:41

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:35:55

Councillor Nick Bridges - 0:36:02

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:36:08

David Stanley, Deputy CEO - 0:36:19

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:37:24

Councillor Nick Bridges - 0:37:33

Public Speaker - 0:38:12

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:39:19

Councillor Joe Harris - 0:39:24

Public Speaker - 0:44:04

Councillor Joe Harris - 0:47:24

Officer - 0:47:53

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:48:47

David Stanley, Deputy CEO - 0:48:54

Councillor Joe Harris - 0:50:45

Public Speaker - 0:51:36

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:52:54

Officer - 0:52:58

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:53:52

Councillor Angus Jenkinson - 0:54:00

Cabinet Member - 0:55:52

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:57:33

Councillor Clare Turner - 0:57:46

Public Speaker - 0:58:16

Councillor Clare Turner - 0:59:29

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 0:59:44

David Stanley, Deputy CEO - 0:59:53

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:00:56

Public Speaker - 1:01:59

Councillor Gina Blomefield - 1:03:57

Councillor Nick Bridges - 1:04:06

Overview and Scrutiny Committee
Monday, 17th November 2025 at 4:00pm